Sign the Gulf Declaration Petition

[Stigweard]

[Martial Development]

Sorry. I resent the fact that Deepak Chopra, Jack Canfield, Debbie Ford, Michael Bernard Beckwith, Barbara Marx Hubbard, and Jean Houston have declared themselves our leaders, in order to circulate a toothless memorandum, and ask us to join their downline for their greater good.

 

How is a petition that proposes no specific steps, and asks its signatories to accept no personal responsibility, going to turn things around? Haven't we already tried "declaring our commitment" while waiting for someone else to handle all the details? Isn't that how we got where we are today?

Edited July 22, 2010 by Martial Development

[Stigweard]

Sorry. I resent the fact that Deepak Chopra, Jack Canfield, Debbie Ford, Michael Bernard Beckwith, Barbara Marx Hubbard, and Jean Houston have declared themselves our leaders, in order to circulate a toothless memorandum, and ask us to join their downline for their greater good.

 

How is a petition that proposes no specific steps, and asks its signatories to accept no personal responsibility, going to turn things around? Haven't we already tried "declaring our commitment" while waiting for someone else to handle all the details? Isn't that how we got where we are today?

Yeah right ... typical ... good folks step up to the plate and show some initiative, willing to take a stand for a positive direction and forge the way ... and then we have folks like you who can't resist trying to tear em down.

 

Have some of your own words back: "Isn't that how we got where we are today?"

 

[Martial Development]

Bullshit. They have taken no stand. Nobody is against what they are petitioning for, so the petition is without substance.

 

They are literally asking other people to make the sacrifices, commit the resources, and unleash the genius--all tasks they are unwilling to perform themselves, with this very document, because confronting the dirty political realities of our energy situation here would place their images and reputations at risk. It is a disgraceful calculation.

 

We may as well circulate a petition for strawberry ice cream. Which I am strongly in favor of, lest you assume I am consumed by negativity.

[island]

Maybe a more effective action would be to stop using the stuff?

[Stigweard]

Bullshit. They have taken no stand. Nobody is against what they are petitioning for, so the petition is without substance.

 

What a load of utter poppycock!!! (???)

 

Reality check ... if there weren't forces opposing total commitment to the transition to sustainable energy sources, if there was nothing standing in the way, then it would have ALREADY HAPPENED!!

 

Should we inventory all the economic and political stakeholders that have vested interests in the delayed transition to clean, renewable, non-polluting, and sustainable energy sources???

 

Seriously?

 

They are literally asking other people to make the sacrifices, commit the resources, and unleash the genius--all tasks they are unwilling to perform themselves, with this very document, because confronting the dirty political realities of our energy situation here would place their images and reputations at risk. It is a disgraceful calculation.

 

Errm ... by launching this initiative, THEY are making sacrifices in terms of their time and effort, THEY are committing their own resources through funding the program, THEY are unleashing their genius by doing everything in their power to make a difference, and THEY are literally putting their faces out there and risking their reputations.

 

Are you for or against the transition to clean, renewable, non-polluting, and sustainable energy sources?

 

If you are for it, then shouldn't we do every damn thing we can to make it a reality as soon as humanly possible??

[thelerner]

Sorry. I resent the fact that Deepak Chopra, Jack Canfield, Debbie Ford, Michael Bernard Beckwith, Barbara Marx Hubbard, and Jean Houston have declared themselves our leaders, in order to circulate a toothless memorandum, and ask us to join their downline for their greater good.

 

How is a petition that proposes no specific steps, and asks its signatories to accept no personal responsibility, going to turn things around? Haven't we already tried "declaring our commitment" while waiting for someone else to handle all the details? Isn't that how we got where we are today?

 

I agree with Martial D., but I signed it anyway. There are simply times you do things because a friend asks.

 

 

Michael

[joeblast]

Reality check ... if there weren't forces opposing total commitment to the transition to sustainable energy sources, if there was nothing standing in the way, then it would have ALREADY HAPPENED!!

While there may be parties that have plenty of vested interests in unsustainable resources, by far the most significant reason it hasn't happened is simple economics...

 

and really, what does this petition say but "we are petitioning for more subsidies" - and oversubsidization is a sure shot to artificially distort overall energy prices, with the penalty going to mr average user, having the overall percentage of his resources that goes towards energy have a significant impact on his life.

 

Maybe $10 a gallon gas and quadrupled electrical bills wont bother a lot of the supremely ideologically driven, but for the vast majority of the rest of us, its just one more added weight on making your life run.

[WallaMike]

This is interesting to me, since this proclamation appears to be from a group that I'm also a member of, Integral Life and fan of Ken Wilber. The originators of the memorandum call themselves "Evolutionary Leaders" which is a call phrase of that group. Perhaps I'm wrong.

However, what I thought was wrong with Integral Life is similar to what the "Martial Development" blogger was complaining about regarding this Gulf Proclamation. And in that aspect I also agree in part with him. However, I did sign the proclamation, since I haven't given up hope yet.

On the other hand, the part I do feel somewhat hopeless about is that it will take not merely reputations and time to makes these changes, it will also take a lot of money. Money is something that most "spiritual" people still have a hard time with and so while their hearts are in the right place, they haven't yet been able to reconcile their spiritual stance with having money and power.

Through non-dual practices I think this is easily reconciled, but I think it takes a long time for most people to do so. I've long been a fan of capitalism, but also a critic of how it is run by psychologically underdeveloped people. Once the more spiritually developed people get over their issues with money and power, the faster we will see changes that will help the planet.

I like Taoism because it is both non-dual (in certain branches), but also a generally nature friendly philosophy. However, how many rich and powerful Taoists do you know these days? I wonder why that is so.

I would like to see more community action by Taoist and other groups like Integral Life, but so far its lots of talk, lots of ego and chest thumping, and little action. In the past, I'm put my money and my time where my mouth is, but I've not seen anything come from it, so given my limits, I've decided to pull back and work more on myself, since at this point this is all I can see that I have any control over and sometimes I wonder about that. This move has been good for me, but I still get sad when I see how little is being done for our children. I just don't understand why enough people can't see what is going on and get together via the internet or whatever and do something, say similar to Moveon.com, but more middle of the road. On the other hand, I also realize that my lack of understanding about this is a reflection upon my own lack of development in some area, so I'm working on that.

However, if the people who set up this Gulf Proclamation actually do get off their virtual butts, collect some money, start companies, get lobbyists, GET PRACTICAL, and do something other than bash the easily bashed oil companies (who can buy and sell all these people combined without affecting their bottom line), I'll be pleasantly surprised...and I'll be glad to help. But I won't hold my breath.

WallaMike

[Encephalon]

I agree with Joe (a first!) that it boils down to economics; inexpensively extractable oil yields the most power per penny you can find, at least in up front costs. If you factor in the costs of all the subsidies that keep oil artificially low, including the costs of maintaining a navy to keep the shipping lanes open, road building, not to mention all the diseconomies, i.e., the externalized costs of environmental degradation, health-related air pollution, problems associated with suburban auto-dependency, then we find that we're actually paying as much as European countries for a gallon of gas, just not at-the-pump.

 

We could have gotten a jump on this problem decades ago. I remember when Carter put solar panels on the White House as a gesture of our desire to wean off of foreign oil. Reagan came in, called it "socialist nonsense," and had them removed to a warehouse in DC, increased subsidies for oil, reduced them for alternative fuels.

 

I'm done wrestling with solutions. Here in the San Fernando Valley, the land use model most exported throughout the world, we are entirely fossil-fuel dependent. You absolutely have to have a car, and when it's 85 in downtowm LA, it's 105 here. The only long term solution, barring some extraordinarily early arrival of cold fusion, is to rebuild city centers and harvest The Valley for recycled construction materials.

 

Also, I don't resent people taking it upon themselves to bring attention to this problem. Some of those people are a little too New Agey for my taste, but I needn't be offended by or resentful of their good intentions, unless my ego is feeling needy at the moment.

[Encephalon]

This is interesting to me, since this proclamation appears to be from a group that I'm also a member of, Integral Life and fan of Ken Wilber. The originators of the memorandum call themselves "Evolutionary Leaders" which is a call phrase of that group. Perhaps I'm wrong.

However, what I thought was wrong with Integral Life is similar to what the "Martial Development" blogger was complaining about regarding this Gulf Proclamation. And in that aspect I also agree in part with him. However, I did sign the proclamation, since I haven't given up hope yet.

On the other hand, the part I do feel somewhat hopeless about is that it will take not merely reputations and time to makes these changes, it will also take a lot of money. Money is something that most "spiritual" people still have a hard time with and so while their hearts are in the right place, they haven't yet been able to reconcile their spiritual stance with having money and power.

Through non-dual practices I think this is easily reconciled, but I think it takes a long time for most people to do so. I've long been a fan of capitalism, but also a critic of how it is run by psychologically underdeveloped people. Once the more spiritually developed people get over their issues with money and power, the faster we will see changes that will help the planet.

I like Taoism because it is both non-dual (in certain branches), but also a generally nature friendly philosophy. However, how many rich and powerful Taoists do you know these days? I wonder why that is so.

I would like to see more community action by Taoist and other groups like Integral Life, but so far its lots of talk, lots of ego and chest thumping, and little action. In the past, I'm put my money and my time where my mouth is, but I've not seen anything come from it, so given my limits, I've decided to pull back and work more on myself, since at this point this is all I can see that I have any control over and sometimes I wonder about that. This move has been good for me, but I still get sad when I see how little is being done for our children. I just don't understand why enough people can't see what is going on and get together via the internet or whatever and do something, say similar to Moveon.com, but more middle of the road. On the other hand, I also realize that my lack of understanding about this is a reflection upon my own lack of development in some area, so I'm working on that.

However, if the people who set up this Gulf Proclamation actually do get off their virtual butts, collect some money, start companies, get lobbyists, GET PRACTICAL, and do something other than bash the easily bashed oil companies (who can buy and sell all these people combined without affecting their bottom line), I'll be pleasantly surprised...and I'll be glad to help. But I won't hold my breath.

WallaMike

 

Did you read Wilber's "Boomeritis?" I loved it, sort of imagined it being a novelized account of his AQAL/Spiral Dynamics model, or fictional account of his "Theory of Everything." If my IT is still current, I believe he said that it takes five years to climb up through each tier, so maybe we're right on schedule?

[Ryan T.]

A couple things.

 

Firstly, I never sign on-line petitions as a rule. Mainly due to the futility of such things.

 

Secondly, the people's of the United States will never ween themselves off of petroleum products until the expense is too high. Whether that is environmental expense, like this most recent Gulf spill, or financial costs such as at the pump or in the grocery store.

 

I just don't see a petition doing a thing to impact the general population's opinion on this topic.

[Martial Development]

What a load of utter poppycock!!! (???)

 

Reality check ... if there weren't forces opposing total commitment to the transition to sustainable energy sources, if there was nothing standing in the way, then it would have ALREADY HAPPENED!!

 

Should we inventory all the economic and political stakeholders that have vested interests in the delayed transition to clean, renewable, non-polluting, and sustainable energy sources???

 

Seriously?

 

 

 

Errm ... by launching this initiative, THEY are making sacrifices in terms of their time and effort, THEY are committing their own resources through funding the program, THEY are unleashing their genius by doing everything in their power to make a difference, and THEY are literally putting their faces out there and risking their reputations.

 

Are you for or against the transition to clean, renewable, non-polluting, and sustainable energy sources?

 

If you are for it, then shouldn't we do every damn thing we can to make it a reality as soon as humanly possible??

 

 

Nobody in Washington is against energy independence. Just ask them. They are all for it, just like they are all for the ideas of freedom, justice, and equality. Talk is cheap.

 

http://tinyurl.com/24m25zv

 

In fact, the only thing cheaper than talk, is an online petition for a nonbinding resolution to endorse a general commitment to sustainability.

 

Now, having established that what they are trying to do with this petition is already long since done, we can talk about the personal sacrifices they've made to do it yet again.

 

This online petition represents maybe a half-day's work by a copywriter, plus a full day's work by a web developer. Total cost approximately one thousand US dollars, divided by 46 headline signatories, equals around twenty dollars each. THAT is the extent of their sacrifice--if you completely discount the marketing value associated with attaching themselves to the project. Twenty dollars. Fuck them and the high horse they rode in on. There are some well-heeled people on that list, in case you didn't notice, and you think this project is their combined and fully financed genius?

 

There are two reasons that we haven't already achieved sustainability. First, because we haven't reached a consensus on what concrete steps must be taken, steps which we all know will cost real jobs and cause real pain in order to be effective. This is an area where we need honest proposals and real leadership, not platitudes. Second, because the people who are profiting most from the status quo do not respond to petitions.

[Brian]

..

[Stigweard]

[garuda]

[Encephalon]

In all honesty, and at the planetary level of reality, it hurts my heart to see untold thousands of helpless creatures die or suffer at the hand of a terrible and unfortunate blunter or negligence of an imperfect specie we call humankind (Gulf spill). And not to mention the potential impact it may have on the environment we call our home which supports our very life existence and allows us to pursue a journey to our chosen spiritual goals.

 

But it hurts my heart even more when I see the adversity between two or more proclaimed students of the Way (Taoism) and bickering over posture or belief one may have for a controversial issue that affects all of us in some way. We are brothers who are all alike and all of us after the same goals peace, awakening, love, justice, happiness, compassion, and goodwill for all, both the good and bad; just to name a few.

 

These petty arguments on a small forum sadly reminds me of a microcosm of a sad historical trend that has plagued mankind for millennia. It starts with a small argument; exacerbates into a shoving match, then punching fists, then mob mentality of gathering forces, and ultimately the final demise is a worthless, pointless, bloody war or political action that disgraces our collective humanity.

 

And Im not pointing the finger only to others. I catch myself doing this also. But it is sad and demeaning to argue over our ugly egoic passions, biases, or judgments at the cost of damaging our relationships with each other and Nature. We hold ourselves up to a higher standard by attempting to follow the Tao, a blessing that only a small minority are bestowed with, amongst a seemingly crazy and mixed up world around us.

 

So what do we have to show for ourselves and our Taoist beliefs if we cant even get along with each other, our brothers in faith and devotion to a noble cause we share in common. I am far from being perfect in behavior/speak/thought or even awakened; but I am evolved enough to recognize the foolishness in our actions that divide us. If there is an issue at hand why not just listen to your heart, and follow that without condemnation of others. Why waste time and energy arguing over small mundane misunderstandings or differences of opinion. Is it more important to be right or to sustain our relationships with each other?

 

If the issue does not enhance or enliven our personal humanity, our spiritual practice, or serve the collective humanity of our planet -- then why even speak about, especially at the risk of damaging relationships with spiritual brothers or fueling inflamed emotions? I try to remember my compassion and humanity always. Sometimes Im successful, sometimes I fail. But in the interest of all humanity, I feel compelled mention its potential dangers when only mutual suffering can result from heated disagreements from brothers on the Way. Do we want to become venomous snakes or peaceful doves? Its something to think about, especially if we genuinely strive for the ultimate Way. We must listen carefully to the heart, and follow that, do we not?

 

I've tried to understand the belligerence and lack of charity that is often experessed in this forum, both by me and others. We do indeed betray the teachings when we express our views in uncharitable ways. I regularly conclude that it is the anonymity of online forums that give us the freedom to express comments in ways we would not if we were all sitting in someone's living room.

 

Unfortunately, I can only see this pattern getting worse, both in this forum and in the world at large, as we wrestle with global challenges and how to face them. As I see it, the Big Conversation that is just beginning to take place is, who will survive the 21st century, and who will be sacrificed? How are the remaining resources going to be distributed? I wish I could join the ranks of my more optimistic brethren who see technological innovation as the means of escaping the bounds of the earth's carrying capacity. I'm not ruling this out, but I just don't see human beings acquiring the collective maturity to pull this off. I believe a truly Darwinian Age is dawning, although the message of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" - the remake - is still plausible; that in the moments of our greatest crisis, people find the power and wisdom to act in concert for the betterment of the world.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Blasto

[Brian]

..

[thelerner]

In all honesty, and at the planetary level of reality, it hurts my heart to see untold thousands of helpless creatures die or suffer at the hand of a terrible and unfortunate blunter or negligence of an imperfect specie we call humankind (Gulf spill). And not to mention the potential impact it may have on the environment we call our home – which supports our very life existence and allows us to pursue a journey to our chosen spiritual goals.

 

But it hurts my heart even more when I see the adversity between two or more proclaimed students of the Way (Taoism) and bickering over posture or belief one may have for a controversial issue that affects all of us in some way. We are brothers who are all alike and all of us after the same goals – peace, awakening, love, justice, happiness, compassion, and goodwill for all, both the good and bad; just to name a few.

 

Eh, Bickering, or conversation on opposing opinions is one of the things this site is all about. I don't think voicing disagreements are bad. Only when it get personal does it get silly and pointless, in the meantime its a way to learn and awaken to issues we might not otherwise think about. Plus disagreeing doesn't make us any less brothers, sometimes it connects us; we give a damn.

 

So..it shouldn't hurt your heart, it should exercise it and let it grow bigger and stronger. There's much dissent in the world, but we don't have to take it personally. I think both sides have a point. Maybe one side with more heart, the other with more head.

 

I'm stuck in the middle (as always), disagreeing with the petition, but signing it anyway; 1. because of my respect for Stig, 2. because when weighing heart vs head, its happier to go with heart.

 

 

Michael

[JustARandomPanda]

I stopped signing online petitions when I found out how useless they are for getting legislatures to listen. Online petitions are ignored by the U.S. Congress and state legislatures because no one can be verified.

 

The only kind of petitions recognized by them are ones done the old-fashioned way - on paper with thousands of individual hand-written signatures (which would be a feat difficult to forge).

[Martial Development]

But it hurts my heart even more when I see the adversity between two or more proclaimed students of the Way (Taoism) and bickering over posture or belief one may have for a controversial issue that affects all of us in some way. We are brothers who are all alike and all of us after the same goals – peace, awakening, love, justice, happiness, compassion, and goodwill for all, both the good and bad; just to name a few.

 

These petty arguments on a small forum sadly reminds me of a microcosm of a sad historical trend that has plagued mankind for millennia. It starts with a small argument; exacerbates into a shoving match, then punching fists, then mob mentality of gathering forces, and ultimately the final demise is a worthless, pointless, bloody war or political action that disgraces our collective humanity.

 

We are discussing what is fruitless and what is best, and how to get there from here. There is nothing petty about it. It is extremely important. It is also the easiest part...so if you don't have the heart, the brains, and the stomach for it...better start growing some.

 

If your house is on fire and your kids are inside, are you going to run away, in order to avoid "fighting" with the blaze? Are you going to start a petition to condemn the excessive heat, calling it "a positive first step towards an agreeable solution to our temperature problems"? I sure hope not!

 

Well, the world is on fire and we are all inside. Word to the noodle!

Edited July 24, 2010 by Martial Development

[Stigweard]

[Stigweard]

We are discussing what is fruitless and what is best, and how to get there from here. There is nothing petty about it. It is extremely important. It is also the easiest part...so if you don't have the heart, the brains, and the stomach for it...better start growing some.

 

If your house is on fire and your kids are inside, are you going to run away, in order to avoid "fighting" with the blaze? Are you going to start a petition to condemn the excessive heat, calling it "a positive first step towards an agreeable solution to our temperature problems"? I sure hope not!

 

Well, the world is on fire and we are all inside. Word to the noodle!

 

OK then Mr Fireman ... how you gunna put out this fire then?

[Encephalon]

nevermind

Edited July 24, 2010 by Blasto

[Mal]