Hijacking Threads - New Policy Under Consideration

[Stigweard]

Up to this point our moderation activities have been orientated around obvious violations such as profanity, insults, etc. Underpinning our Moderation Guidelines is the endeavor to provide an enjoyable place for people to discuss and learn. We have also promised to apply a light a touch as possible in the achievement of this goal. Which is why, when considering new policy it needs to be thought out thoroughly.

 

Now topics often branch out into areas quite different from what was initially intended, it's normal in a relaxed conversation, people go on tangents and I am sure we have all done it. However, it becomes a detraction for the enjoyable atmosphere when certain individuals excessively post off-topic material effectively "Hijacking" the thread to be focused on their particular view or opinion.

 

So, in the spirit of collective enjoyment, we are considering adding "Excessively Hijacking Topics" to our "Causes for moderation action" found in our Moderation Guidelines.

 

I would be very interested in your views and comments.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I personally don't feel that moderator action is necessary in this situation. Especially because of this:

 

Now topics often branch out into areas quite different from what was initially intended,

 

Conversations have ways of working themselves out. If action is taken to stem conversation, or which prevents people from posting stuff which others may feel is too "off topic", who knows what might wind up NOT being said?

 

It takes two (or more) to make a thread go off topic. The problem is not the one person who interjects their opinion- the problem is that endless amounts of people feel the need to comment on that person's opinion. "You shouldn't post that here." "Why do you always bring up that topic?" "Why don't you just stop talking, we've heard this before" yadda yadda. Suddenly one person's opinion explodes into 20 posts commenting on that opinion- and that's 20 posts off topic.

 

 

Perhaps everyone should be reminded that this is, uh, the internet. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is going to post their opinion. It should be obvious by now that the people posting are posting their..... opinions. Maybe it's an off the cuff statement, or maybe it's backed up by 20 years of training and personal experience. But it still boils down to opinions. If you don't agree with that person's opinion, that's fine..... but do you really need to let the world know that you don't agree with that opinion?

 

I don't think so.

 

I feel this issue stems less from someone trying to insert their opinion (which we all do anyway), and more with a certain group of people who take objections with that opinion, and make it their mission to let the world (and the thread) know about it.

 

Perhaps everyone should read and meditate upon this:

 

 

http://xkcd.com/386/

 

Rather than excessively posting about someone's opinion which you disagree with, it might be more prudent to think about (and carry out the action of) letting the issue go.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Tao99]

If you don't agree with that person's opinion, that's fine..... but do you really need to let the world know that you don't agree with that opinion?

 

I don't think so.

 

I think so. Lots of posts here are opinions that are a disagreement with a some part of a prior poster's point.

 

Also the essence of debate is two or more somehow differing points of view which means by definition that they disagree with the other side.

 

have a good one!!

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[altiora]

Yes please I'd subscribe to such a policy. The problem is not solely a member who begins with "V" (although he is by far the worse offender). It's also the people who then reply in kind, resulting in this silly tit for tac carry on. What I just can't comprehend is why these people think the rest of us are even slightly interested, and why they can't carry on their exchanges between themselves via the email.

 

We have some extremely interesting threads going on, but these people are destroying the "marketplace of ideas" by drowning every one out. The threads usually just die. The end result will be that these people will be the only left posting on this site -- the others having left because of the sheer boredom and irritation -- and lacking an audience these people will leave themselves.

 

It is hard to point exactly when the policy should be applied and it will depend on the moderator's discretion. But I think there have been ample instances of highjacking lately, and I should imagine the first step will be for the offenders to be first warned to desist.

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[altiora]

because V's criticisms are public and so responses are public

 

 

that's an explanation as to what happens not a justification. No one is compelled to respond to V.

 

It seems that quite a few people, myself included, are now blocking V. That deals with the V problem. However, the problem with highjacking now is these responses that people feel compelled to make and to keep the fire going. And V just thrives on it being the exhibitionist who craves attention.

Edited July 23, 2010 by altiora

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[altiora]

I think it is a justification - if you step up and make a critical post in public, don't be surprised if you get a public response. Good lesson really.

 

Huh? the point surely is that V should expect a response; but those of us who don't care and want the subject to stay on point shouldn't have it rubbed in our faces. Again, tell me why people feel they need to save face by highjacking other threads -- whether those people be like V in initiating it, or the people who respond? Turn the other cheek, ignore V and he'll go away.

 

So to put it another way, when I along with others accessed the "Daoist Sitting in Oblivion vs Xstian Apophatic Prayer Are they one and the same???" thread, we wanted to discuss and listen to other peoples' views on the similarities between these two things. We did not care about V's attacks, or your attempts to save your face by responding. We just didn't care. But we do care that you and V and others managed for pages to go on and on about something totally off point.

Edited July 23, 2010 by altiora

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[C T]

I'm with Sloppy on this one.

 

There are hundreds of threads that goes off on a tangent. I feel the agitated ones are only a minority who's making the most noise.

 

Who decides anyway if anything's off topic? Just because a handful feels dis-eased does not mean anything significant - there are those who may take things in good light from what they read and not say anything in support for fear of verbal reprisals from this minority group, so rather than engaging themselves in worthless and unnecessary grief, they would simply refrain from expressing any opinions in support, or otherwise too, sometimes.

 

So the situation could end up being quite messy, for the scenario could be that the supposed 'hijacker' gets reported, and those who follow with their multitude of objections then could also be reported and so on - where is the point in all this? How is this going to resolve?

 

Moreover its a very subjective area i think. Just because one or two does not favor a certain style of certain individuals is no concrete indication that others feel as they do. Unless of course a consensus can be reached as to how many complainants react before action is taken. Then it could be quite legit.

 

How many of us here are innocent of posting off-topic stuff anyway? I mean, seriously, there is a someone who follows another someone around correcting syntax and style of writing for god's sake, and that's ok? I dont see any objectors raising their voices there...

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[Tao99]

for the scenario could be that the supposed 'hijacker' gets reported, and those who follow with their multitude of objections then could also be reported and so on - where is the point in all this? How is this going to resolve?

 

 

No. Youre missing the point. When a highjacker goes off topic member tells him to open a thread and take it there. Then the responses to the off topic point follow him there and it gets discussed on the new thread. Thus all such posts are on NEW THREAD.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Tao99

[Tao99]

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Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[DarthBane]

Maybe we should take it down a bit. It is easy to become heated up about these things. I understand some humor now and then, but to try to permanently derail and continue to do so on a topic is just obscene really.

 

As an example sometimes the initial response should give you some idea how people feel about your point. If you get negative responses it is time to take your ball and go home.

 

I know people do go off on tangents, and it takes extra work to ignore these if you are not looking for that material. But it shouldnt be something new to be able to determined how aware or (dare I say how enlightened- someone is. I dont like useing the term enlightened because people have so many different ideas on what it means.

 

yes it sounds awful to draw attention to it. being able to calmly deal with people who do have "no control" should be a first skill learned. But being too serious can darken yourself also, as well as being incoherent. But some dont have that, so maybe we should have a rule about it.

 

It may make the forum less relaxed and more strict but if that is what everyone wants, I wont contest it.

[C T]

This is not the time nor place to rebutt what you have stated Tao99. You have expressed your feelings, and often its hard to argue feelings anyway, so i will refrain. But thanks for offering your distorted view (you Buddhists...) once again. You see what you have been programmed to see (and say), and not an inch pass that.

 

But i do agree with you in many of the things you say, although it does not mean that each time i do, or do not sometimes, that i come out firing with dis/agreements, based on my interpretations, which could be quite silly, because after all, there are merely interpretations in the final analysis.

[Tao99]

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Edited July 31, 2010 by Tao99

[C T]

What the hell does that CRITICISM OF PERSON mean. You Buddhists claim to be so complete and advanced yet so many here seem to go straight to CRITICISM OF PERSON not POINT at every turn, even while claiming they don't and telling others not to. Is that what the Buddha taught?

When this was written i included 'me' in the handful btw.

[Stigweard]

Thanks for all the comments so far ... exactly what needs to be aired.

 

Just because a handful feels dis-eased does not mean anything significant

 

Sorry, it is actually VERY significant that there are folks voicing their discontent. For every person that does voice their opinion, how many do you think that feel the same way but don't comment? I have run businesses for years and I can tell you that only about 20% of upset customers will actually say anything, the rest will go away, never return, and tell all their friends about it.

 

I have seen at least 10 people who have voiced their objections over Vaj's manner of contribution, this would mean we can approximate another 40 people who have been upset and haven't said anything. 50 disgruntled members is significant and warrants this type of consideration.

 

But please keep the comments and suggestions coming

[C T]

You Buddhists have lost the right to complain when your point quite often is that we Taoists have an incomplete system, etc etc etc LOL

yeah....... LOL

 

just for your record.... this has never been my view. not that it matters much to you, but i thought i'd say it anyway, just as reminder to myself to refrain from possible future view-change.

[Tao99]

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Edited July 31, 2010 by Tao99

[C T]

Thanks for all the comments so far ... exactly what needs to be aired.

 

 

 

Sorry, it is actually VERY significant that there are folks voicing their discontent. For every person that does voice their opinion, how many do you think that feel the same way but don't comment? I have run businesses for years and I can tell you that only about 20% of upset customers will actually say anything, the rest will go away, never return, and tell all their friends about it.

 

I have seen at least 10 people who have voiced their objections over Vaj's manner of contribution, this would mean we can approximate another 40 people who have been upset and haven't said anything. 50 disgruntled members is significant and warrants this type of consideration.

 

But please keep the comments and suggestions coming

O yes, i absolutely agree from the viewpoint of conducting a business. Please the customers at all costs, so goes the saying. But a forum is quite a different ball park altogether wont you agree? The thing is, we are all 'customers' here.

 

I do see the reason behind this consideration which you have come up with, and i feel you have done it not without due reflections on all the possible implications. So job well done! But i foresee it could lead to a lot of (avoidable) burden being lumped onto the laps of the mod team, that's all. Think about it further before deciding on anything. I mean, there are scores of threads that get hijacked all the time, and multiply that with the number of individuals who may start to access the 'report' button just cos they feel their time is being wasted at reading thru stuff that they subjectively interpret as unsatisfactorily unrelated to the topic and so on.... it could get pretty messy imo.

[C T]

There you go again with PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST PERSON instead of the POINTS I made. So you need to stop complaining others are doing so, when obviously it is the Buddhist way for you to do so. And personally its been ongoing for many months, and I'm done and am going to expose it for what it is.

Yeah Tao99, lead the crusade by all means. I am sure it will do us all a world of good. I mean this seriously. With gusto, as someone likes to say.

 

 

 

 

ps - i would like to review my mistake, so if you could direct me to the post(s) where these complaints were made, it would be so helpful in that i can rectify them.

Edited July 23, 2010 by CowTao

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thanks for all the comments so far ... exactly what needs to be aired.

 

 

 

Sorry, it is actually VERY significant that there are folks voicing their discontent. For every person that does voice their opinion, how many do you think that feel the same way but don't comment? I have run businesses for years and I can tell you that only about 20% of upset customers will actually say anything, the rest will go away, never return, and tell all their friends about it.

 

I have seen at least 10 people who have voiced their objections over Vaj's manner of contribution, this would mean we can approximate another 40 people who have been upset and haven't said anything. 50 disgruntled members is significant and warrants this type of consideration.

 

But please keep the comments and suggestions coming

 

Good points on the business perspective, but another something to consider is that this is, well, the internet.

 

Anonymity gives people bravery. It lets people say things they would never say in real life. It lets them act in ways they never would act in real life. More or less with immunity. A forum with lax moderation like this one (which I really love, btw) can cut both ways- it opens up a thread to start in one place, go through a variety of hills and valleys, leave no stone unturned, and arrive at the end, with everyone involved having learned a lot about a lot of things. I think there have been threads in the past that really dissected every term brought up and every question and viewpoint, and at the end, everyone walked away better for it.

 

But then you have the problem that some threads get stuck on one point that repeat over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Honestly, in my opinion it just comes with the territory. Have a free forum, with the risk of lots of off topic discussions, or having a closely moderated forum, with discussions that get clipped just because they hit a few bumps.

 

I'm a member of a few other forums that follow the latter approach. It really, really bugs me. Maybe I'm just anti authority. Or maybe it's because I think that, well, no man is an island, and neither is one topic. Especially on a spiritual discussion forum, spirituality, by its very nature, affects EVERYTHING. So even if you bring up a thread about a specific point, there are going to be tangential points that get brought up. If people are hung up on a tangential point that was brought up, and then discussion stops because it's "off topic", well.... who knows where that might have gone? It might have just been a kink that worked itself out, and could have gone on to something new. So the thread hits a rough patch, okay, move the discussion along, or stop posting.

 

 

 

I dunno. People feel that certain members always come into a thread and derail it? I haven't seen that.

 

What I HAVE seen, is that people go on attack mode as soon as a certain forum member makes a post. It is THEIR knee jerk responses, which are then responded to, which are then responded to, that cause a thread to derail. Comments like-

 

"At it again?"

"Didn't you say that in another thread?"

"Why do you always have to stick your view into something?"

 

If someone is a Christian, they are going to respond to a topic from a Christian point of view. It goes without saying that in every thread that asks a question, they are going to respond with the Christian point of view.

 

So again, I don't think moderator action is really necessary. I think people need to take a step back, and look at what it is they are doing, and look at what it is they are posting. Are you posting a response to a person's comment within the context of the thread? Or are you bringing up someone's past history into the thread?

 

Honestly, there are situations in which I agree with a person in one thread, and then in another thread disagree with them completely. I feel totally fine laughing at a person's post and saying, "totally!" in one thread, and then turning around and saying, "your point does not take into account....."

 

 

Most of the thread derailing that I've seen, DON'T come from people responding to individual posts that gets it off topic, but in bringing in the past history of the person, as well as the occasional personal jab.