Taoism - A Small Insight

[adept]

Great video.

I remember watching this on TV a couple of years ago.

Part of a series on world religions by the BBC.

 

Taoism

[Marblehead]

Yeah, there is a lot of beauty in Taoist Mysticism.

 

A statement in the video is one of my favorites: ... that there is a divine order within the chaos.

 

Chaos is the norm, I think, but there truely is order within this chaos when we stop and just observe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yeah, there is a lot of beauty in Taoist Mysticism.

 

A statement in the video is one of my favorites: ... that there is a divine order within the chaos.

 

Chaos is the norm, I think, but there truely is order within this chaos when we stop and just observe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Aren't "order" and "chaos" just another duality to transcend?

[Marblehead]

Aren't "order" and "chaos" just another duality to transcend?

 

You are absolutely correct, IMO.

 

On another forum I occasionally get to speak with a person who labels himself a "Discordian". The philosophy is based in the concept of 'chaos'. But there is order within that chaos.

 

Talking with him is always a challenge for me.

 

Yes, we should try to transcend dualistic thinking. But then, when we look at a rose we should not forget the thorns while embracing the beauty of the flower.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes, we should try to transcend dualistic thinking. But then, when we look at a rose we should not forget the thorns while embracing the beauty of the flower.

 

Some people like pain.

 

 

[Vajrahridaya]

Aren't "order" and "chaos" just another duality to transcend?

 

Yes, as life is ordered chaos or chaotic order anyway. I do find that the more insight I have, the more of a secret multi-dimensional order I do see in the seeming chaos of life anyway, thus less confusion ensues.

[Marblehead]

Some people like pain.

 

 

 

I cannot deny the truth of that statement. However, I would suggest that there is something amiss with these people. The reasons are deep and really not worth a discussion for me because it has been too long since I did any studying of the subject.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Yes, as life is ordered chaos or chaotic order anyway. I do find that the more insight I have, the more of a secret multi-dimensional order I do see in the seeming chaos of life anyway, thus less confusion ensues.

 

 

Hehehe. Yep. And if we stop thinking altogether there will never be any confusion.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Hehehe. Yep. And if we stop thinking altogether there will never be any confusion.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I don't agree. Conventional thinking doesn't have to get in the way if you see through it. Though stilling the mind is definitely part of the path. There are also many layers to thought all the way to imagery, emotions, and even color spectrum energy patterns. But yes, conventional thought should be seen through entirely through insight.

[Sloppy Zhang]

However, I would suggest that there is something amiss with these people.

 

Hmm, I hope not!

 

I don't know who mentioned this (I want to say it was little1) but a while ago on this forum I remember someone saying that when they were a kid they would run their hands under hot and cold water simultaneously. In really really hot water and really really cold water, they mentioned that all their felt was "sensation". It was neither hot nor cold, just a really intense feeling.

 

One day I was scratching my arm, and I was paying very close attention just to the feeling. I remembered that post I just described, and decided to try scratching harder and harder, paying attention just to he sensation. Eventually I was digging my nail into my skin, by this point I was just partly seeing how far I could go, and when I was just focusing on the feeling, it was just a very strong sensation. Felt kind of nice to feel something so strongly.

 

Then I stopped and was like, "oh no, I'm turning into a masochist! What will marblehead think of me!" anyway, that made me reflect a little bit on various things.

 

But the POINT is that now I'm the one taking the thread off topic, when that is the subject of some forum business!

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

I don't agree. Conventional thinking doesn't have to get in the way if you see through it. Though stilling the mind is definitely part of the path. There are also many layers to thought all the way to imagery, emotions, and even color spectrum energy patterns. But yes, conventional thought should be seen through entirely through insight.

 

Hi VJ,

 

You do know that we are playing with the concept of 'wu wei' here, don't you?

 

It is said that whenever we partake into learning something new the first experience is confusion. This is because either it is something entirely new that our brain is not familiar with or it contradicts a belief that we already have so there is conflict.

 

I agree, we should never stop thinking. However, in total 'wu wei' there is no 'thinking' going on. Yes, there is total awareness through observation but there is no response to most of the observations until something happens and action/reaction is called for. The choice to act or not must be based on thought. After the decision is made to act or react hopefully the course taken will be spontaneous but more often, I think, thought will occur in order to determine the 'best' course to take.

 

Indeed, it is rare that our mind is totally at rest. That would be a state of total 'wu'. But even then our mind (brain) is active in that we are aware of our awareness of Oneness.

 

And I agree that our brain offers us all kinds of imagery. This is good as long as we remember to differentiate between what is realistically possible at this point in time and what is not. This, in my mind, is what I call being aware of our illusions and delusions.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Hmm, I hope not!

 

Then I stopped and was like, "oh no, I'm turning into a masochist! What will marblehead think of me!" anyway, that made me reflect a little bit on various things.

 

But the POINT is that now I'm the one taking the thread off topic, when that is the subject of some forum business!

 

Oh, Wow! Yeah, we have gone off topic but still we are within the parameters of Taoist thought.

 

Self mutilation! What a concept! Totally anti-Taoist, I should point out.

 

What you spoke to is not actually masochistist though, I think. There are other concepts at play here. But still, both examples you spoke to are, in my opinion, not normal nor natural. We are forcing a resistance of a natural process to stop doing an act that is causing us pain.

 

In the 'real world' though we do this quite frequently. We put ourselves in harms way for whatever the purpose. We accept pain associated with acts of helping others. This then, I will suggest, is still within the realms of being natural.

 

And, as I have expressed before, I believe we should periodically test our limits, test our capabilities and capacities. In your examples the test were of acceptance of pain. So I suppose that both examples are those of what I suggest doing.

 

But still, I personally try to avoid pain. I think that this is natural and normal. I so much prefer pleasure or if possible, indifference.

 

Peace & Love!

[RiverSnake]

I don't agree. Conventional thinking doesn't have to get in the way if you see through it. Though stilling the mind is definitely part of the path. There are also many layers to thought all the way to imagery, emotions, and even color spectrum energy patterns. But yes, conventional thought should be seen through entirely through insight.

 

I've been reading some Franz Bardon (Initiation into Hermetics) and one thing he says is that in order to achieve, wisdom must be balanced with knowledge. Knowledge comes from earth and wisdom comes from heaven.

 

-I believe this concept has some merit to it.

 

-Very beautiful video, nice scenery. I would like to go hiking in the mountains of China.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Tao Apprentice

[Vajrahridaya]

I've been reading some Franz Bardon (Initiation into Hermetics) and one thing he says is that in order to achieve, wisdom must be balanced with knowledge. Knowledge comes from earth and wisdom comes from heaven.

 

-I believe this concept has some merit to it.

 

-Very beautiful video, nice scenery. I would like to go hiking in the mountains of China.

 

Yes, wisdom is vast like the sky while knowledge helps integrate that wisdom and ground it in conventional settings.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi VJ,

 

You do know that we are playing with the concept of 'wu wei' here, don't you?

 

 

Sure.

 

I agree, we should never stop thinking. However, in total 'wu wei' there is no 'thinking' going on. Yes, there is total awareness through observation but there is no response to most of the observations until something happens and action/reaction is called for. The choice to act or not must be based on thought. After the decision is made to act or react hopefully the course taken will be spontaneous but more often, I think, thought will occur in order to determine the 'best' course to take.

 

Well yes, in a sense the more wise or insightful we are about the nature of things as a whole, the vaster space our thoughts have as a reference for there existence in our experience. As in, a wise persons thought patterns reflect a wider array of awareness and information beyond the thought itself.

 

It's like, the whole frog in the pond and the bird telling the frog that there's a big ocean out there kind of thing. The frog being conventional thought and the bird being from the sky of wisdom.

 

Indeed, it is rare that our mind is totally at rest. That would be a state of total 'wu'. But even then our mind (brain) is active in that we are aware of our awareness of Oneness.

 

Yes, being aware in the delta brain wave state does take either lucid dreaming practice or regular meditation practice sustained over a stretch of time in order to work out the density in the way. Sometimes if you are open, one can experience this consciously within the presence of a master, working kind of like mental osmosis. Their vibe is so much more grounded, deeper and stronger that you experience it in their presence. That deep, peaceful calm where ones actions are released from conventional thinking boundaries.

 

And I agree that our brain offers us all kinds of imagery. This is good as long as we remember to differentiate between what is realistically possible at this point in time and what is not. This, in my mind, is what I call being aware of our illusions and delusions.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I do agree. Though I know that we disagree on what our realistic boundaries are as humans.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Sloppy Zhang]

Oh, Wow! Yeah, we have gone off topic but still we are within the parameters of Taoist thought.

 

Self mutilation! What a concept! Totally anti-Taoist, I should point out.

 

What you spoke to is not actually masochistist though, I think. There are other concepts at play here. But still, both examples you spoke to are, in my opinion, not normal nor natural. We are forcing a resistance of a natural process to stop doing an act that is causing us pain.

 

In the 'real world' though we do this quite frequently. We put ourselves in harms way for whatever the purpose. We accept pain associated with acts of helping others. This then, I will suggest, is still within the realms of being natural.

 

And, as I have expressed before, I believe we should periodically test our limits, test our capabilities and capacities. In your examples the test were of acceptance of pain. So I suppose that both examples are those of what I suggest doing.

 

But still, I personally try to avoid pain. I think that this is natural and normal. I so much prefer pleasure or if possible, indifference.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Well that's the thing though- the intent wasn't self mutilation or pain, it was rather, the exploration of sensation

 

When I said "see how far I could go", it wasn't out of some intent to see how much pain I could stand. It was more like.... I was feeling an intense sensation, and I thought, "some people would consider this masochism.... wait.... I consider this masochism!" (I also make it a habit to avoid pain in general).

 

But within the context of just exploring sensation, I wasn't near as far as I could go- I could still feel more.

 

So I wasn't really thinking of it as pain.

 

Anyway, I might just be turning into some depraved psycho but I'm a big believer in intent being a big factor. And as objectively masochistic as my actions sound, I assure you, it was an exploration of feeling and sensation, as well as awareness in general, not pain!

 

But I did see how people could come to think of it as pleasurable. Pleasurable in the sense of a very, very intense experience.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

I do agree. Though I know that we disagree one what our realistic boundaries are as humans.

 

Yep. Hehehe.

 

I oftentimes go to my favorite place of peace in Italy when I am in a 'wu' state but I fully realize that only my mind was there, my body was firmly seated in my recliner.

 

The rest of your post I either agree with or have nothing to say to.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Yes, I do understand what you are saying. I have no value judgement.

 

Anyway, I might just be turning into some depraved psycho but I'm a big believer in intent being a big factor. And as objectively masochistic as my actions sound, I assure you, it was an exploration of feeling and sensation, as well as awareness in general, not pain!

 

But I did see how people could come to think of it as pleasurable. Pleasurable in the sense of a very, very intense experience.

 

Yes, intention was the subject of a recent thread. Still an interesting subject.

 

I would say that, for the individual, intention is the biggest factor. However, for others, our intention may not be that meaningful because there are so many variables that determine what others think regarding any action we take based on our intentions.

 

I think that this is why Lao Tzu spoke to the subject of being beyond praise and blame. For us, personally and spiritually, our intentions or lack thereof, I think, should be held in high esteem. But even this state is not full 'wu wei' because in 'wu wei' there are no intentions. (And that is so weird and difficult to grasp!)

 

Peace & Love!

[Sloppy Zhang]

(And that is so weird and difficult to grasp!)

 

Difficult to grasp indeed! Maybe let go instead?

 

Ack, duality!

[Marblehead]

Difficult to grasp indeed! Maybe let go instead?

 

Ack, duality!

 

Hehehe. You get one point for that!!!

 

"The concept of letting go is so difficult to grasp." How weird is that?

 

Yeah, we rarely get away from duality because that is the way our brain works. And it really is very useful in the physical world.

 

But then we do have to grasp it before we can let it go, don't we?

 

Lao Tzu, Chapter 36, Henricks' translation:

 

1. If you wish to shrink it,

2. You must certainly stretch it.

3. If you wish to weaken it,

4. You must certainly strengthen it.

5. If you wish to desert it,

6. You must certainly work closely with it.

7. If you wish to snatch something from it,

8. You must certainly give something to it.

9. This is called the Subtle Light.

 

Peace & Love!

[adept]

So did anybody watch the film ???

Talk about going off on a tangent !

I don't know why I bother.

If I started a thread on B****ism or special powers it would be like 12 pages long by now.

I'm outta here.

[Tao99]

.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[adept]

EDIT: actually 21 responses is pretty good! Even if a bit meandering.

 

I know, but if I moan often enough, we may get it to 12 pages or more. :D

[Sloppy Zhang]

I did, in fact, watch it.

 

If I pulled out every line I thought was good, I'd be pulling out half the dialogue of the video

 

(the other half was him gasping awe and going, "oh, amazing" "oh, wonderful" "oh, amazing" "ah, I don't even comprehend it" "ah, so simple" "ah, amazing".... but I guess that's standard commentary for stuff like this)

Edited July 24, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

I did, in fact, watch it.

 

Well, y'all already know I watched it and that I have been rather outspoken about it.

 

Nothing more to say at the moment until someone stimulates my thoughts.

 

That's Tao too, you know.

 

Peace & Love!