Question on SFQ Practice

[garuda]

I have a question for Drew or anyone familiar with Chunyi Lin's Spring Forest Qigong. Chunyi suggests not to mix other qigong postures/movements with the SFQ style. I know not to modify the Active Exercises sequence in any way, but.....

 

I like doing the Taiji Chen style 30-posture silk reeling exercises daily to keep the body loose and the mind focused. But will doing the silk reeling practice interfere with the effectiveness of the SPQ Level-One Active Exercises practice if both Silk and SFQ are done multiple times daily, so long as the silk reeling is done at least an hour apart from the start or finish of SFQ practices? Or is it better and more potent to practice more of the SFQ exercises and meditations in place of those times I would like to silk reel?

[voidisyinyang]

I have a question for Drew or anyone familiar with Chunyi Lin's Spring Forest Qigong. Chunyi suggests not to mix other qigong postures/movements with the SFQ style. I know not to modify the Active Exercises sequence in any way, but.....

 

I like doing the Taiji Chen style 30-posture silk reeling exercises daily to keep the body loose and the mind focused. But will doing the silk reeling practice interfere with the effectiveness of the SPQ Level-One Active Exercises practice if both Silk and SFQ are done multiple times daily, so long as the silk reeling is done at least an hour apart from the start or finish of SFQ practices? Or is it better and more potent to practice more of the SFQ exercises and meditations in place of those times I would like to silk reel?

 

Well last I heard (which was several years ago) Chunyi Lin starts his day out with a Tai-chi routine.

 

So what you're doing sounds fine to me. At first Chunyi Lin says the practice is 3 times more standing active to the amount of passive sitting meditation. But then as the energy develops, using the "small universe" exercise and working into full lotus for third eye opening, the ratio switches to 3 times more passive sitting to 1 time standing active.

 

Also you can definitely modify the SFQ active exercises. Chunyi Lin says you can do just a half hour of the "Moving of yin and yang" which is the foundation for the active exercises -- very simple yet powerful. Or you could do the "Harmony of Heaven and Earth" for half hour or the full routine working with the chi ball, etc. There's also the 1,000 palms of Buddha exercise and also the shaolin static standing practices -- training the sword fingers and the thunder palms.

 

So while at Shaolin Chunyi Lin did the 2 hours nonstop thunderpalm training or sword finger training -- with the knees deeply bent and the thighs straight -- no movement allowed! That was everyday nonstop for 3 months I think.

 

Then after that at Shaolin they did long distance healing using their now opened third eyes.

[Mattimo]

Try it and find out - really. I mean this in a completely non-offensive way, but if Drew (or someone else) told you it isn't a good idea, should you believe them? NO. The essence of the internal arts is TRUTH and no matter how convincing someone's argument is about why you shouldn't do this or do that it is still DOGMA in the end.

[Sahaj Nath]

Try it and find out - really. I mean this in a completely non-offensive way, but if Drew (or someone else) told you it isn't a good idea, should you believe them? NO. The essence of the internal arts is TRUTH and no matter how convincing someone's argument is about why you shouldn't do this or do that it is still DOGMA in the end.

 

um...yeah...

 

i hear ya, and i actually tend toward your attitude in most instances (although i have NO IDEA what you mean by "TRUTH"), but with regard to Master Chunyi Lin, the idea isn't that you will necessarily hurt yourself, but that if something goes awry in your body, he can easily pinpoint where the problem is and make the necessary adjustments.

 

most people aren't developed enough to just "try it and find out," as you put it. most people don't know what the different nuances of the energy mean; they just know when they feel "something" and when they don't, and by the time they realize that severe imbalance is developing, they're not even sure where to start to correct it.

 

 

i'm the KING of trial-and-error. i've acquired MOST of my knowledge by doing things wrong. sometimes i found useless dogma, but many other times i found the absurdity of my own hubris.

 

there are plenty of qigong sets with which you can experiment if that's your thing, but specific systems like SFQ are set up the way they are for a reason.

 

and for anyone who needs to ask the question which started this thread, it's better to err on the side of caution. it's not a bad thing to have fidelity to your system. it IS a bad thing to presume to know much of anything when one is just starting out.

[Birch]

"no movement allowed! That was everyday nonstop for 3 months I think."

 

Holy crap???? No sleeping??

[Birch]

"i'm the KING of trial-and-error."

 

And you rule

 

---Bows somewhat-- to experience rather than -- eum, not that.

[voidisyinyang]

"no movement allowed! That was everyday nonstop for 3 months I think."

 

Holy crap???? No sleeping??

 

Kate that stance for nonstop for 2 hours straight -- you can see this in Jackie Chan movies when he gets punished and he goes into the thunder palms. Then they put candles under his backside and on his knees and shoulders with the wax in there so if he moves he gets burnt.

 

Anyway when Chunyi Lin later did his cave meditation that was no sleeping for 49 days -- nonstop full lotus the whole time. Also no food and no water -- and no sleep. That was through Master Zhang http://qigongmaster.com

[Aetherous]

We truly are tao bums.

[Raymond Wolter]

Drew,

 

I just got a newsletter that there is an SFQ workshop in LA. Hope I can make it.

 

As for master Zhang, I see he has a bunch of videos on his homepage. He seems to use mantras and mudras with his qigong extensively. Does anyone have any experience with his Qigong forms, especially the Mysterious Pyramid Qigong?

[voidisyinyang]

Drew,

 

I just got a newsletter that there is an SFQ workshop in LA. Hope I can make it.

 

As for master Zhang, I see he has a bunch of videos on his homepage. He seems to use mantras and mudras with his qigong extensively. Does anyone have any experience with his Qigong forms, especially the Mysterious Pyramid Qigong?

 

Yeah I just read Master Zhang just gave a workshop in Boston! There's another online report about a transmission from Master Zhang that was amazing.

 

So Chunyi Lin said that when they (each in their own cave) were in the cave meditation for 49 days in full lotus they weren't allowed to sleep and that their Master was watching them with his third eye.

 

That's the real training --

 

http://www.members.tripod.com/hronald/ahommmt/spring.htm

 

Yeah here is that transmission from Master Zhang -- amazing testimony.

 

Master Zhang told me to sit down and meditate, gave me some instructions and leaped over some rocks to take pictures. I closed my eyes and felt a force pushing me from behind. Personal conflicts that had embroiled me since early childhood were teeming my awareness. I clearly saw visions of a past life and realized I was being made to come to terms with my existence. And all at once I felt a genuine love and compassion for mankind, nature and the universe. I opened my eyes and Master Zhang took my picture. Master Zhang is quite a bit shorter than me and weighs around 130 pounds, but he literally lifted me and pulled me over the rocks and I crawled while he held my hand until I could go no further. He told me to sit and do Hsien Tien Tai Chi while he took out his video camera.

Edited July 24, 2010 by drewhempel

[Raymond Wolter]

Yeah I just read Master Zhang just gave a workshop in Boston! There's another online report about a transmission from Master Zhang that was amazing.

 

So Chunyi Lin said that when they (each in their own cave) were in the cave meditation for 49 days in full lotus they weren't allowed to sleep and that their Master was watching them with his third eye.

 

That's the real training --

 

Drew,

 

Any idea what Master Lin derives his form from? Any specific Qigong form or a bunch of forms?

 

Do you know of any other forms such as SFQ which are equally simple and beneficial? Just for curiosity really ... Have you tried Fragrance Qigong? Seems very simple too...

[voidisyinyang]

Drew,

 

Any idea what Master Lin derives his form from? Any specific Qigong form or a bunch of forms?

 

Do you know of any other forms such as SFQ which are equally simple and beneficial? Just for curiosity really ... Have you tried Fragrance Qigong? Seems very simple too...

 

Wow the Fragrance qigong looks great but surprised I hadn't heard of it since Master Tian, Rui-sheng is named next to Yan, Xin.

 

Yeah Chunyi Lin teaches the simplest is the most powerful and the basic teaching is to use your consciousness to go into the emptiness.

 

I first attended qigong master Effie P. Chow's demonstration and that blew me away -- I felt really strong electromagnetic fields between my hands. Master Chow blew out the fuses for the room behind us, according to the University security guard.

 

That was 1995 and so then I continued research and I went to San Francisco in 1996 to look further into Effie Chow but I didn't have any funds besides travel money.

 

So then in 1997 I met the Yan Xin Chinese practitioners and started doing that, plus more research. I felt the lower tan tien heat from the Yan Xin and the bliss. Then I attended a Tibetan Llama lecture and I felt this buzzing in the center of my forehead -- which surprised me.

 

I kept practicing and had some wild experiences but I was also very busy with other things and then my friend told me how she had studied with Chunyi Lin. I didn't give it much thought since he was just a local teacher I assumed -- but then Chunyi Lin presented to my graduate class at the U of Minnesota. I sat right in front and I knew right away he was the real deal. I had read Dr. Eisenberg's excellent book on qigong masters.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=DgFA-kVkuZEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=eisenberg+qigong&source=bl&ots=95szipKwCH&sig=FaQ1NhEpdCAARheneCiFLVQWq1A&hl=en&ei=zHFKTIKlJcSGnQeAke2BDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Yeah so I took an initial class with Chunyi Lin and he said he'd walk by us with his sword fingers and we'd hear the sound of his fingers shaking but to just keep doing the standing exercise calmly. When he walked by me and I heard the fingers -- suddenly I saw bright light and I felt this really amazing bliss -- the best bliss ever. It was a real love energy.

 

So then I did more research -- reading Mantak Chia and then I discovered the "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" book. I also was researching nondualism big time. So then I made studying with Chunyi Lin the focus of my final graduate class as self-directed research.

 

That was I could do the proper gong 100 day training -- and I ended it with the 8 day bigu -- called "achieved of cessation" in Theravada Buddhism -- and that got me to the immortal breathing -- it was between chapter nine and chapter 11 in the book "Taoist Yoga."

 

So by that point I healed my mom of a serious illness so she no longer needed surgical stockings and I had telepathy, telekinesis and precognition. I also saw the dead spirits -- at the Level 3 retreat. Chunyi Lin says that when he's giving chi-emitting lectures then the dead spirits will regularly visit him to find help and so he gives them energy so they can return to the emptiness for peace.

 

I had already seen the dead spirits but didn't say anything to anyone and then Chunyi Lin said that someone had asked about those spirits so he gave the answer. Strangely I had also just read about that same type of encounter from another meditation master. I had specially ordered the below book through inter-library loan:

 

The Venerable Phra Acharn Mun Bhuridatta Thera, meditation master by Bauw Ñanasampanno, Phra Maha.; Siri Buddhasukh. (Samudra Prakarn, Thailand : Buddhist Books Service, 1995)

 

After that I had some even more intense energy experiences -- external chi transmissions and spacetime travel and spirit exorcisms of other people. So I stopped practicing and then I discovered Master Nan, Huai-chin's books and I had to read his 5 books in english -- the trilogy of his memorized Buddhist lectures on Ch'an I had to read those book three times each just to understand the concepts he was communicating....

 

Still Chunyi Lin then transmitted the energy to the middle of my brain even though I had stopped practicing and ever since then there's this permanent magnetic bliss in the center of my brain -- that was 10 years ago. The initial training was just 6 months but for the gong training I went on the salt-free diet stated in "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality."

Edited July 24, 2010 by drewhempel

[Raymond Wolter]

Drew,

 

You're Amazing!

 

Interesting you brought up Master Nan, Huai-chin. Nan (or Bodri) seem to insist on watching the breath and think Qigong, Small Orbit etc. as being unnecessary. What is your take on it? Is Insight (Shamata/Vipassana) just enough? Do we need Qigong, Small Universe or other deliberate energy manipulation techniques?

[Sahaj Nath]

Drew,

 

You're Amazing!

 

Interesting you brought up Master Nan, Huai-chin. Nan (or Bodri) seem to insist on watching the breath and think Qigong, Small Orbit etc. as being unnecessary. What is your take on it? Is Insight (Shamata/Vipassana) just enough? Do we need Qigong, Small Universe or other deliberate energy manipulation techniques?

 

yeah, Drew is STUPID-SMART!

 

i'm sure he'll give his own take on this issue, but this is something that was also brought up back in March, and this was my reply:

 

...

to answer your first question: NO. anapana CANNOT COMPLETELY SUBSTITUTE qigong & tai chi... if i understand correctly the spirit of your question, maybe this will help.

 

calming the mind frees up a tremendous amount of energy in the body, as does fasting. but trouble can quickly arise if your body's not ready to handle it. it is very possible to just blow open your channels through a tremendous induction of energy triggered by deep meditation. but that could prove to be a HORRIFIC experience. can place extreme stress on the body. can be very painful. qigong/taiji quan/yoga prepares the body for handling all of that energy. the exercises will steadily and gradually open the channels so that the pipes are clean and when you open the floodgates you won't do any damage.

 

also, most (regular) people who meditate without a physical component don't seem to get very far in terms of energetic development. this is probably due to improper mindset in practice and the lack of a school or community from which to receive guidance. i think qigong practices work better in terms of quickly increasing your awareness of the energy in your body.

 

cross training produces the best results, IMO. qigong IS a meditative practice. and proper meditation IS qigong.

 

you can take a basic commercial yoga class and get a feel for some of what i'm saying here. if you start the class in corpse/emptiness pose, you're just kind of laying there. not much happening except for in the mind. but after going through a few postures and exercises, THEN when you return to corpse/emptiness pose, the energy in your body is awake and flowing, and your stillness almost seems to facilitate it.

 

hope this helps.

 

hope this helps.

 

 

you might find that entire thread interesting:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/13887-qigong-fundamentals/

[buscon]

We truly are tao bums.

 

+1

[garuda]

A sincere thanks to all who contributed here to my questions. And my respect for those of you who have experienced the challenges (and torture) that I suspect I am about to face in the near future as cultivation unfolds. As a beginner, so many questions arise about proper practice. I will attempt to limit mine to only those with substance.

 

I wish you all well in your practice!!

Thanx, garuda

[voidisyinyang]

Drew,

 

You're Amazing!

 

Interesting you brought up Master Nan, Huai-chin. Nan (or Bodri) seem to insist on watching the breath and think Qigong, Small Orbit etc. as being unnecessary. What is your take on it? Is Insight (Shamata/Vipassana) just enough? Do we need Qigong, Small Universe or other deliberate energy manipulation techniques?

 

Basically what Master Nan and Bodri call "cessation and contemplation" (which includes insight/shamata/vipassana, etc.) is that it is the path as the goal or the goal as the path -- it's the most important practice. At the same time it is also the slowest practice to get results. This is detailed in their "Measuring Meditation" book. If you read Master Nan's first three Ch'an lecture books his focus is how in Buddhism "mind yoga" on its own does not transform the body and without transforming the body then you don't get to the 8th level of consciousness, when the body gets sick.

 

So when you access and activate the prenatal chi during the small universe training this is the activation of the true kundalini energy and if you can focus that energy in the body, continuing to store it up and transduce it then you can create the "alchemical agent."

 

But after the "alchemical agent" is created that means the conversion of chi to shen has been completed so that the third eye is fully open and real astral travel can happen through the yin spirit body. The trick is that this process is done in nirvikalpa samadhi which means that the energy of your body merges with the energy of the environment as a holograph. So that's why Master Nan, huai-chin states it's impossible to describe real samadhi anyway -- not to mention it's not allowed according to the Buddhist monk codes.

 

So anyway what Master Nan and Bodri do state is that if you rely on "esoteric yoga" which uses the right brain visualization instead of relying on the emptiness meditation (contemplation and cessation or source of the I-thought as a K'oan) then it's very easy to get attached to the body energy without the proper means to balance the energy by "emptying it out." At the same time if you do have proper guidance from a master then the esoteric yoga (tantra, taoist alchemy, etc.) is a very fast, powerful path to take.

 

Finally Master Nan and Bodri state that any type of energy exchange where a yogi is taking in someone's jing and then transmitting chi -- as is the case with tantric healing and is what I practice as well -- that is just no different then any other type of pollution of the body -- feces, phelgm, etc. So the focus of Master Nan and Bodri is to get past the 1st Dhyana of bodily bliss which is the lower heavenly realm of desire. Tantra at its best can get you to the lower level of the realm of form heaven.

 

This is why for real meditative practice it's best to have at least an environment that understands these differences -- maybe a monastery (although most of these probably don't focus enough on meditation but more now on doing rituals and teaching, etc). When the 1st Dhyana is achieved and the immortal breathing starts with the real kundalini then you are converting jing to chi and you can go without food and even water. That's when the real meditation begins but it's also dangerous to do -- more so because mundane reality will attack you as insane or something like that. Since at this level of creating strong chi you are also doing spirit exorcisms of people around you.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin states that at this stage in humanity it is probably best not to meditate at all considering how low the dharma is -- and he also states that the question of why humanity even exists is a very critical one to answer in the realm of the 6th level of consciousness.

 

So that's what I spent my last 10 years of research on -- why has humanity existed, what is its purpose on earth, etc. It was a fun research project to be sure.

 

If you look at the history of energy healing -- the Bushmen have the same as qigong or any other type of spiritual meditation powers -- Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc. So the N/um energy for the Bushmen is the same as kundalini or jing while the !KIA is their chi-shen healing transmissions.

 

Now the Bushmen culture were the ORIGINAL human culture for 90% of human history from 10,000 BCE to 100,000 BCE. So the Bushmen males trained for a month when they hit puberty -- trained with the older males doing fasting, trance dance, getting energy transmissions -- all away from the females. But it wasn't until the Bushmen were 40 years old that they were able to become a Master Healer -- so that they could STARE without losing focus -- as the healing energy is laser energy.

 

At the same time it is considered wrong in Bushmen culture for the males to HOARD THE N/UM ENERGY. The males state that they "collect the N/um of young maidens" but then the male healers transform the N/um into !KIA and give the !KIA energy back to the females, thereby exorcising the females of "dead spirit" energy of the lower emotions.

 

So what happens is that sometimes the males try to hoard the N/um energy -- on occasion this is o.k. if there needs to be a long-distance healing done which means that the rest of the healers have to watch over the body of the master healer while his spirit is gone. So that is considered very dangerous. Other times a Master Healer will travel up to see God -- as the great sky spirit (the original source of the healing energy). Whereas the direct source of the healing energy is the Trickster god.

 

Finally a master healer might start living on his own more and then spirit traveling or even shape-shifting as a yang spirit body into a lion. This is what creates fear among the other Bushmen now. At first the spirit traveling into lions is to communicate to them to not attack the Bushmen. But if a Master Healer starts living on his own and then shape-shifting into a lion this can also be used to attack other Bushmen.

 

So the women do throw water on the male healers to keep the male healers from going too deep into trance so that they don't do astral travel. The energy is from the female N/um so then it should be used to HEAL the females!! But some males hoard the N/um and use it for alchemical powers.

 

I see this as similar to the "Irrigation Empire" concept applied to Asia as it started in early civilizations -- like the Sanskrit vedic cultures, etc. So alchemy in a sense is the Plow-based farming (the translation of Tan Tien) used by the irrigation empires to try to store up the power of Nature (as chi/shen for body transformation). Whereas the original healing energy of the Bushmen was a free-flowing energy that was like a free river, constantly being polluted but then restored as clean through movement and the pollution becoming nutrients for the food chain, etc. Also the Bushmen males lived on a starvation diet -- when they hunted meat, it was saved until the next morning and then the food was shared with everyone. There were regular periods of very severe food restrictions from drought, etc.

Edited July 24, 2010 by drewhempel

[Raymond Wolter]

to answer your first question: NO. anapana CANNOT COMPLETELY SUBSTITUTE qigong & tai chi... if i understand correctly the spirit of your question, maybe this will help.

 

calming the mind frees up a tremendous amount of energy in the body, as does fasting. but trouble can quickly arise if your body's not ready to handle it. it is very possible to just blow open your channels through a tremendous induction of energy triggered by deep meditation. but that could prove to be a HORRIFIC experience. can place extreme stress on the body. can be very painful. qigong/taiji quan/yoga prepares the body for handling all of that energy. the exercises will steadily and gradually open the channels so that the pipes are clean and when you open the floodgates you won't do any damage.

 

also, most (regular) people who meditate without a physical component don't seem to get very far in terms of energetic development. this is probably due to improper mindset in practice and the lack of a school or community from which to receive guidance. i think qigong practices work better in terms of quickly increasing your awareness of the energy in your body.

 

cross training produces the best results, IMO. qigong IS a meditative practice. and proper meditation IS qigong.

 

you can take a basic commercial yoga class and get a feel for some of what i'm saying here. if you start the class in corpse/emptiness pose, you're just kind of laying there. not much happening except for in the mind. but after going through a few postures and exercises, THEN when you return to corpse/emptiness pose, the energy in your body is awake and flowing, and your stillness almost seems to facilitate it.

 

 

Thanks Hundun.

 

Bear with my ignorant questions

 

So Qigong helps, and I have my experience to believe that. However, what really happens with Qigong? First step, build/collect energy in the Dantien. And then run the orbit. From my limited understanding, these are the basic goals of Qigong?

 

Relax and put your mind on your tan tien. Your breath will automatically go there. after a while it will become habit. Don't try and breathe deeper than normal. One should do this walking, sitting, standing, laying down.

 

 

I found this post very apt. So you just focus on your dantien and what needs to happen, does happen. And is this not the same some basic exercises of Qigong, for example SFQ, try to accomplish? Build the lower Dantien through physical movements which seem more forced than this natural approach. The only thing missing here is probably the physical exercise part?

 

And, would the same not be achieved through Zazen where one does put the attention on the hara? And hence also with Anapana in some way?

 

But don't get too concerned about the flow and orbit. Things really flow because of abundance, not mind stuff. No need to trick yourself. Water the seed and it will grow. Develop the dantian and MCO will flow.

 

Another gem here. So after the Dantien is developed, the orbit simply flows as long as one does not obstruct it. Again, what is the use of intent, physical movements etc. here?

 

My basic question is still the same. How exactly do the physical qigong movements help? Or do they at all? One reason I can think of is stagnation of energy and getting rid of that requires elaborate qigong movements?

 

Drew wrote on this on blog:

 

Yeah Bodri states that forceful circulation is the wrong path but acknowledges that it can expedite spiritual gong-fu or even get the ball rolling in certain cases. He says that once the mind empties of thought (the state between birth and death - abolition of the volition skanda) and breath ceases, the microcosmic orbit will initiate on its own.

 

He (and Master Nan too) says that in China as the secrets to these Taoist practices became more elusive and harder to obtain due to greater worldly influence and technological advancements, the later students misconstrued their Taoist adept teachers' writings on the various physiological effects of the meditation and took them as the methods to achieving them - inverting the causes for the effects.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[voidisyinyang]

Thanks Hundun.

 

Bear with my ignorant questions

 

So Qigong helps, and I have my experience to believe that. However, what really happens with Qigong? First step, build/collect energy in the Dantien. And then run the orbit. From my limited understanding, these are the basic goals of Qigong?

 

 

 

 

I found this post very apt. So you just focus on your dantien and what needs to happen, does happen. And is this not the same some basic exercises of Qigong, for example SFQ, try to accomplish? Build the lower Dantien through physical movements which seem more forced than this natural approach. The only thing missing here is probably the physical exercise part?

 

And, would the same not be achieved through Zazen where one does put the attention on the hara? And hence also with Anapana in some way?

 

 

 

Another gem here. So after the Dantien is developed, the orbit simply flows as long as one does not obstruct it. Again, what is the use of intent, physical movements etc. here?

 

My basic question is still the same. How exactly do the physical qigong movements help? Or do they at all? One reason I can think of is stagnation of energy and getting rid of that requires elaborate qigong movements?

 

Drew wrote on this on blog:

 

Umm that quote of me doesn't ring a bell -- it might have been someone else commenting on my blog?

 

Anyway the goal for the practice is to open the third eye -- which is the middle of the brain -- so there is a permanent physiological transformation of your perception.

 

This is called "Laying the Foundation" in the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" -- or "achievement of cessation" in Theravada Buddhism. It's called the "Dharmakaya" in Mahayana Buddhism.

 

But Bodri and Nan emphasize that traditionally in Ch'an Buddhism once the Dharmakaya was achieved then the meditator would go off into solitude to further transform the body to develop the Nirmanakaya and Sambogakaya -- sp?...

 

To do this further development then the energy does have to be further stored in the lower tan tien. Still at the same time once the third eye is opened then true nondualism is experienced -- which is called the Emptiness in Taoism -- the Original Face, the Moon, etc.

 

At that stage our "true" self is not our body, nor is it our mind -- and the energy keeps transforming based on the interactions between our self and others. The energy is transmitted out of the third eye and the energy goes in through the perineum, etc.

 

So that's the goal - Gurdjieff calls it the Number 4 person with the "permanent center of gravity" in the center of the brain.

 

But the Number 5 person with the fully opened third eye is much harder to achieve -- it's the true alchemical agent for long distance astral travel, etc. It's after the Number 4 person that Nan and Bodri focus on -- AFTER Nirvikalpa samadhi -- and it can not be described in words.

 

After chapter 11 in the book "Taoist Yoga" is also focused on this.

 

For example Michael Winn discusses how he encouraged Mantak Chia to NOT put the astral "pearl" travel visualization exercises in Mantak Chia's "Fusion of the Five Element" exercise books.

 

Michael Winn states that these "pearl" or spirit travel out of the brain exercises are types of brain ejaculations which are dangerous. The book "Taoist Yoga" also states that if there is astral travel before the lower tan tien chi is developed enough strong enough shen -- then there is dizziness and it is also dangerous.

 

Also at this stage between Number 4 and Number 5 it's easy to have many "chi in the brain" delusions -- of the ego from the spiritual powers -- or of too much love over-excitement -- so that people are over-whelmed by the bliss -- or there is too much cerebral activity -- or there is body sickness from over-using the spiritual energy -- or there is too much fear from the dangers involved, etc. These issues are also discussed in "Taoist Yoga" - it's chapter 9, 10 or 11 -- can't remember off-hand. One chapter is focused on making sure not to lose the alchemical agent during sleep, another is focused on the immortal breathing of Nirvikalpa samadhi, and the third is on all the above problems that can develop during this stage.

 

So I experienced the dizziness from trying to have spiritual astral travel before I had changed enough chi into shen. Then I had lost the alchemical agent. Then I had all the other various imbalances of chi and jing, etc. from not having the proper context for the training. So that's why at that stage -- AFTER Number 4 is reached -- after the Dharmakaya is experienced -- then you really need the guidance of an energy master who can transmit and personally supervise the training -- you need to be accepted formally by a teacher, in a one-to-one training situation. This is rare in the East, much less in Africa or more so the West. So normally a teacher will have one assistant that gets the main transmissions and supervision so that they can be trained as an energy master. They get chosen by the teacher -- the student has to be specially qualified based on merit, karma, past training, etc.

[Raymond Wolter]

Drew,

 

That simply went over my head

 

So were you saying physical movements Qigong is necessary or just watching the breath/thoughts and getting into emptiness is good enough?

 

Also, any idea why Master Lin does not teach the Macrocosmic orbit? He teaches only the smaller orbit across the four levels I am told...

[voidisyinyang]

Drew,

 

That simply went over my head

 

So were you saying physical movements Qigong is necessary or just watching the breath/thoughts and getting into emptiness is good enough?

 

Also, any idea why Master Lin does not teach the Macrocosmic orbit? He teaches only the smaller orbit across the four levels I am told...

 

The physical movements are necessary. At first you want 3 times more standing active exercise movements (tai chi, etc.) to the sitting passive exercises.

 

The small universe exercise is the foundation for the practice. So as it advances then it moves into the macrocosmic orbit naturally -- which is the immortal breathing as the long distance healing.

 

So the Level 3 exercises of the Sun and Moon meditations are focused on the central channel energy as the macrocosmic energy or prenatal chi energy -- the moon is the neck chakra as the psychic energy while the sun is the heart and third eye soul energy. The Level 4 is the "rainbow astral" energy -- so that's the deep bone transformation.

 

During the Level 3 and Level 4 training the focus is doing deeper long distance healing -- as Chunyi Lin says the more you go into the emptiness the more the power of the energy.

 

Chunyi Lin says he could teach another 10 levels but he also says you can learn the first 4 levels as conceptual information but still not be at those levels in terms of practice. So those 4 levels are more than enough for people to work on in terms of their practice levels.

 

You can take the Level 1 and Level 2 back to back -- it's set up so people can fly in for an extended weekend. But then before Level 3 Chunyi Lin recommends 3 months of training -- which is, of course, the traditional "100 days" as the gong to again "lay the foundation." through the small universe practice to open up the third eye.

 

At the Level 3 class then he touches the forehead to shoot energy into the middle of the brain to open up the third eye so that people can do long distance healing and also so that people can have permanent bliss. That's the enlightenment training.