Culturally Specific Energy Definitions

[Smile]

Scott Sonnon produced an article based on that Bill Bodri thread that got Sean and Scott into a verbal battle.

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/43/sonnon3.html

 

The irony of the whole thing is this....

 

Scott had this to say when arguing with Sean:

"It is your "belief" (as you have written) that "chi" and "prana" must be referenced in order to discuss human conscious evolution. However, that is only a belief system. There is nothing that cannot be achieved in human conscious evolution without referencing Chinese or Indian culture."

 

"I have never discarded the cultural concept of 'chi'. I have, and if you re-read anything I have written, stated that: everything that can be achieved in personal transcendence can be accomplished without referencing that, or any one specific cultural definition."

 

Well, guess what is coming out next month?....

 

[sean]

I don't get it either. CST does import "culturally specific" terms, ie: yoga, prasara and now chi kung (qi gong). It looks like this is just part of a marketing strategy since these terms are not really being explicitly defined and (unfortunately) open discussion of what these terms are referring to is clearly not permitted on the forum.

[SheepishLord]

I don't get it either. CST does import "culturally specific" terms, ie: yoga, prasara and now chi kung (qi gong). It looks like this is just part of a marketing strategy since these terms are not really being explicitly defined and (unfortunately) open discussion of what these terms are referring to is clearly not permitted on the forum.

 

You know, we should put out our own DVD series under "The Tao Bums" banner. Everyone from this forum can put together a best-practices DVD by submitting footage to a specific standard (DV) and then we press it on demand. It would be really funny and cost nothing to produce. Michael Winn would shit his pants probably...

[sunshine]

You know, we should put out our own DVD series under "The Tao Bums" banner. Everyone from this forum can put together a best-practices DVD by submitting footage to a specific standard (DV) and then we press it on demand. It would be really funny and cost nothing to produce. Michael Winn would shit his pants probably...

 

Cool idea... but what would a DVD on emptiness meditation look like (no joking here)?

[Cameron]

What I really liked about Dragondoor is you have an authentic qigong guy who studied the classical systems for decades(John Du Cane) and this awesome fitness teacher in Pavel. They each stick to there respective fields of expertise and if someone asks Pavel about qigong he says ask John if someone asks John about conditioning he says ask Pavel.

 

You don't culitvate your qi with kettlebell swings and you don't lose wieght and improve your cardio with the animal frolics. Every practice has unique benefits pros and cons which is why other practices are useful.

 

Scott's stuff is great and I am sure intuflow and flowfit will be part of my program for a long time but I don't know about this stuff. Maybe someone should trademark the word qigong like Scott trademarked the word "The Path"?

 

All in all, I don't mind it he still makes a great contribution to the physical culture scene but I would leave qigong to the real qigong teachers and conditioning(including mobilty, stretching, strength, endurance) to guys like Pavel and Scott.

 

It's not enough being one of the coolest trainers out you need to start trying to compete with ancient systems of health(IMO)?

Edited April 16, 2006 by Cameron

[Smile]

All in all, I don't mind it he still makes a great contribution to the physical culture scene but I would leave qigong to the real qigong teachers...

Be careful, you don't want to start a new argument based on using non-culture specific terms proving you don't need a lineage or a teacher- all you need is $39.95 DVD that explains all the mechanical, physiological and mental aspects of the practice that builds a successful foundation for Qigong. Or should I say Energy Flow Exercise?

 

The scary part is you both could be right.

[Cameron]

The thing is I really like Scott and think his stuff is so cool. I was doing a nice kettlebell followed buy clubbell workout today and really enjoy all his mobilty stuff too.

 

Why do some of these guys(Furey, Scott) put out such awesome products and then go off the deep end? Matt with his sex course and now Chinese long life course and Scott doing an rmax qigong course.

 

Maybe they aregood courses so I don't want to take the position of being judgmental. I am sure one of us will buy the rmax qigong dvd as well as the rmax internal martial arts dvd and give us the scoop when it comes out.

 

And that someone is Kyle"Yoda" Bairdsen

Edited April 17, 2006 by Cameron

[SheepishLord]

Scott trademarked the word "The Path"?

 

omg...

[Smile]

Scott trademarked the word "The Path"?

 

I'm planning to trademark "The Shit"

[SheepishLord]

I'm planning to trademark "The Shit"

 

Yes, because you're it!

[Smile]

 

QUOTE(Smile @ Apr 18 2006, 03:23 AM)

 

I'm planning to trademark "The Shit"

 

 

Yes, because you're it!

 

No, for your next book...

[neimad]

The thing is I really like Scott and think his stuff is so cool. I was doing a nice kettlebell followed buy clubbell workout today and really enjoy all his mobilty stuff too.

 

Why do some of these guys(Furey, Scott) put out such awesome products and then go off the deep end? Matt with his sex course and now Chinese long life course and Scott doing an rmax qigong course.

 

Maybe they aregood courses so I don't want to take the position of being judgmental. I am sure one of us will buy the rmax qigong dvd as well as the rmax internal martial arts dvd and give us the scoop when it comes out.

 

And that someone is Kyle"Yoda" Bairdsen

 

i'll tell you what.... i'll probably buy it too, RMAX is just that good that i have a very deep level of trust for their products already.

 

if anyone out there can actually tell me what qi gong is and break it down as simple as possible, i'd appreciate it.

 

i've tried qi gong before, as far as i'm concerned it's just breathing and moving. sure you may get tingles in certain places and so forth, and then get all mystical and say "oooh i'm opening up my energy pathways" and so forth. or you could also be all western about it and start talking about how through the intertwining of breath, awareness and movement that your blood flow, hormone flow, nervous system energetics and so forth are all responding positivitely. your energy level is rising and you feel nourished as a result.

 

 

that argument between scott and sean really opened my eyes a lot. scott was not denying the mystical, rather saying that the exotic language is not necessary for the same benefits to occur.

it's all there, ALL OF IT, in our very own language and culture. the point of scott posting the initial article in the first place was to say that, just that. it's totally unnecessary for someone else to attack something saying that basically because it doesn't specifically use the exotic language then in no way could anything be happening on that plane.

 

i got some news...... IT'S ALL CHI! the whole uni-verse (one verse? one song? one sound? - it's all there in our own language, all of it. we don't need to translate centuries old texts to realise the nature of ourselves. our true nature is not culture specific, it transcends all boundaries) is brimming with the stuff. everything is made up of energy. mass is just energy in particle form rather than wave form.

 

how then can something not be using chi?

 

what about intu-flow? do you not think that perhaps the nutrition and lubrication being brought to the joints is not some form of chi? i know mantak chia speaks heavily about the synovial fluid and it's importance. in the chakra system also, every single one of our joints has several chakra points located in it. i know b k works to energise and release these joints.

do you not think that moving them alone is enough to bring chi to them?

 

what is the aim of qi gong? as far as i am aware usually it's for health reasons.... completely the same as RMAX's aim..... or if not it's about becoming a better being.... also in line with RMAX.

 

anyways ultimately anyone has the right to practice whatever they want to and gain the benefits as they seek and are capable of receiving.

[Cameron]

I always say Cohen's book is the best intro to qigong. He is very pro western excercise and science as well as also being a mystic. He really balances out the science and spiritual very well. If your interested that is a good start.

 

I don't think "everything" could possibly be contained in any one system but if you really think that rmax does great it sounds like you found your path.

 

G'day!

[sean]

i've tried qi gong before, as far as i'm concerned it's just breathing and moving. sure you may get tingles in certain places and so forth, and then get all mystical and say "oooh i'm opening up my energy pathways" and so forth. or you could also be all western about it and start talking about how through the intertwining of breath, awareness and movement that your blood flow, hormone flow, nervous system energetics and so forth are all responding positivitely. your energy level is rising and you feel nourished as a result.

I think the latter description is an excellent excellent way to ground yourself in the reality of your body in the world, neimad. Judging by some of your early posts when you first joined The Tao Bums, you seemed a little ungrounded to be honest. When I was young I also dabbled in conspiracy theories and such a bit, and you can get really lost and "out of your body". At some point I kind of had a "reality check" breakdown and tried to do away with "all that new age crap". In retrospect it was probably a good phase for me, and I'm glad I did it while I was young. Seeing how far I could push a common sense, materalist, objective framework. I even latched on to some authoritative sources to help give me clear cut answers since I felt so confused and wanted things to be simpler.

 

The problem with your view though, is that the Western tradition itself goes much much deeper than objective, exoteric descriptions of phenomenon, neimad. And do you see how you are characterizing contemplative mystics now? As if we are buffoons "getting all mystical" and thinking "oooh i'm opening up my energy pathways". As if this is an accurate description of any intelligent, sincere seeker in the mystery. This is exactly what I meant when I said that CST pooh poohs attempts to address the deeper phenomenology of the subtle body.

 

that argument between scott and sean really opened my eyes a lot. scott was not denying the mystical, rather saying that the exotic language is not necessary for the same benefits to occur.

it's all there, ALL OF IT, in our very own language and culture. the point of scott posting the initial article in the first place was to say that, just that. it's totally unnecessary for someone else to attack something saying that basically because it doesn't specifically use the exotic language then in no way could anything be happening on that plane.

But that's the exact point, neimad (of this thread anyway).

 

First off, attempting to create a completely secular, Euro-American path of self-actualization that does not reference the subtle body, emptiness or nonduality is a lofty goal and one I might support and even dabble in. Like I've said before, it doesn't really matter what you call a phenomenon, as long as it's reality is truly understood and addressed if that is the claim. Of course chi is everywhere, it's the subtle field that shapes the entire gross plane. And I can't imagine any intelligent contemplative insisting everything they engage in refer to the subtle body. "Oh shit, this restaurant doesn't refer to the prana levels of their milkshakes, I'm out".

 

Second, the problem being pointed at in this thread is that CST is:

 

1) Importing words such as yoga, prasara and qigong

2) Using the words (arguably) much differently than how the culture's these words were imported from use them

3) Creating products that use and are even named with these words

4) Simultaneously saying that that these words are culturally specific and cannot be understood without immersion in that culture (huh?)

5) Simultaneously implying that all of the benefits these words reference are included in CST (how could this be known without first meeting the conditions of #4?)

6) Locking and deleting any attempt to further discuss the subtleties of this matter

 

it's totally unnecessary for someone else to attack something saying that basically because it doesn't specifically use the exotic language then in no way could anything be happening on that plane.

No one here is claiming this and no one here is attacking anyone. If you really want to judge, ask yourself which forum copies and pastes quotes from blogs and newsletters, strongly criticizes them and then basically flames anyone who so much as asks honest questions and raises alternative perspectives. Then locks and deletes threads.

 

i got some news...... IT'S ALL CHI! the whole uni-verse (one verse? one song? one sound? - it's all there in our own language, all of it. we don't need to translate centuries old texts to realise the nature of ourselves. our true nature is not culture specific, it transcends all boundaries) is brimming with the stuff. everything is made up of energy. mass is just energy in particle form rather than wave form.

Not news my friend.

 

 

Warmly,

Sean

[neimad]

haha i still believe in the whole conspiracy thing, however i view it as basically an expression of our collective shadow.

 

i'm not really trying to pooh pooh chi or any mystical seeker. i believe that anyone with real sincerity in their quest for knowing will find it, regardless of the path they take.

 

all i'm doing is holding to the very base argument that cultural, exotic terminology is not required to get there. that's it, that's all i'm saying.

 

i'm not trying to invalidate anyone out there teaching chi or even trying to say it doesn't exist and so forth. just that it's all there for each and every one of us whether we need to use language from another culture to describe it, or use our own.

 

i don't think true liberation or enlightenment has anything to do with chi or energy levels, that is still a very physical thing and is only relevant in that for the time being our spiritual body is tied in with the physical. i kind of like the scientology view of the 'genetic entitiy' that is the electrical or energy field that is tied up with governing the physical body. in this sense i can see that chi relates directly to process of the body and within our electro-magnetic field.

 

my statement of attack was not of this forum but related to the original article that was saying CST is good but doesn't open your energy lines, or whatever it said.

 

but in all honesty the only thing i really and truly know, without anyone else having to tell me..... is that i am more than this body, and there is much more to this universe than we think we percieve. i know this.

 

everything, and i mean EVERYTHING (cos someone else told me about it, by book or whatever) else is still up in the air, and if i do know the answers.... i'll get back to you.

 

so....

 

can i have a hug?

[sean]

but in all honesty the only thing i really and truly know, without anyone else having to tell me..... is that i am more than this body, and there is much more to this universe than we think we percieve. i know this.

 

everything, and i mean EVERYTHING (cos someone else told me about it, by book or whatever) else is still up in the air, and if i do know the answers.... i'll get back to you.

 

so....

 

can i have a hug?

Sounds like you are in a good place, neimad.

 

*hug* (with firm pats to emphasize the masculine quality of the hug)

 

Sean

[Cameron]

Let me ask you this..do you think rmax stuff cultivates jing , qi and shen in the 3 tan tiens(elixer fields) circulates and transforms sexual energy(jing) into qi and ultimately into shen(spirit).

 

Do you experience a feeling of fullness of vitality in your lower tan tien elixer field that pulsates up and down your core channel from rmax stuff?

 

I think rmax stuff is awesome, it makes me more mobile, more fluid..but these are some of the effects I get from qigong that I doubt I would cultivate with rmax stuff alone.

 

Is your experience different?

 

I experience rmax stuff as opening up my physical structure while qigong and meditation opens my energetic structure. I like the Taoist explanation of the energetic structure of a human based on the 3 tan tiens and 3 treasures but you can use another map if you like.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Cameron

[neimad]

haha with the firm pats.

 

 

don't cheapen the hug man!!!

 

 

i've just been at an alternative living festival, i hugged plenty of men (and women too). i'm comfortable enough with my sexuality to hug whomever.

the festival itself was actually incredibly intense. my good space disintegrated around so many people and i lost the ability to just enjoy myself. i got caught up in trying to pursue someone elses experience and totally forgot about my own.

ive never been to anything like that before, and i went on my own too.

but all in all it was incredibly powerful. i learnt a lot about myself and i will definately go to the next one solo also, to challenge myself again.

 

hugs make you softer..... in that they remove muscle tone or residual muscle tension in the body, i think. it's pretty incredible. but you can only reap the benefits if you aren't afraid to commit to the hug in it's entirety.

 

i reckon hugs are the most powerful and honest form of communication between two people.

you can't lie in a hug!

just commit..... regardless of who you hug and enjoy as a part of your fear and tension melts.

 

ooooo i'm such a hippy now.