what the *** am i?

[dnice]

I have been doing alot of meditation focusing on the "I" , and i was reading something and it said , "Dont try to find what you are , but find what you are not"

 

So i know i cant be just this body because this body has spontaneous movements, When i itch i scratch my self , after i thought about the mind , and i realized that how can i be just the mind? because when i meditate i can watch my thoughts ..

 

 

then came the feeling that i am controlled by something else, Where do these thoughts come from? why do my thoughts feel so fake, but if i stay in silence im able to feel this emptiness that seems more realer then the voice in my head ....am i this emptiness? what is emptiness? does this emptiness watch the thoughts?

is this emptiness consciousness ? how do i understand emptiness?

 

 

Am i typing this? , or is it typing all by itself?

 

wow im going to lose my fuken mind .

 

 

If i continue to meditate on this emptiness that is silent will i reach "samadhi" ?

[Kameel]

Umm... No

 

Can't reach samadhi,

 

Samadhi connects with you,

 

Are you available?

[dnice]

Umm... No

 

Can't reach samadhi,

 

Samadhi connects with you,

 

Are you available?

 

 

 

im sorry i dont get it?

[effilang]

Whatever the answer may be, it will be neither good nor bad, thus keep meditating and keep the mind unstirred and in the area between attachment and detachment. Do not drift, do not marvel, do not question. Be the medium for transformation.

 

Do not try to unravel the mind, let it unravel itself; it understands it's construct better than you do, it knows what to let you know and when. To contemplate it's highs while standing at it's lows will lead to but more questions ad infinitum, this is most consuming of time best dedicated to achieving no thought rather than active thought.

 

The understanding will come on it's own, do not pursue it.

Answers will come to questions which you do not know exist yet.

 

Relieve yourself of expectations and hopes. Do not meditate for samadhi, do not meditate for any special achievement, simply meditate.

 

I think when you understand emptiness, you will have no concept of understanding, "understanding" will be replaced with a nameless, formless experience. Let the onion peel itself.

 

Just meditate... meditate... meditate... meditate.. meditate.

 

If someone's reply satisfies you, will their experience become your truth? - Satisfy yourself only with the evidence of your personal cultivation. Question everything, but not by asking, by meditating.

 

O_O

Edited July 26, 2010 by effilang

[RiverSnake]

Yeah, if you look hard enought you can see the dualities within everything: the good in the bad, the emptiness within the full and vice versa. Thus the yin and yang thingy that seems to be so popular.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't think "fuck" is a censored word. You might offend people, but if you're going to say "fuck", you could start by spelling it right!

 

If you want to meditate on what you are, well, you could start by what type of being you are. Are you a human being? If so, you probably got here as a result of fucking, so you could at least pay it some respect!

 

 

On a slightly more serious note (that's not to say you should disregard the valuable meditations on the act of procreation), trying to think it out is not going to get you anywhere, and probably WILL make you lose your mind.

 

If you push this thought process, there reaches a point when the thoughts get so strong and so confusing, you either break down, or suddenly everything dissipates.

 

At least, that's the case in my experience.

[dnice]

Whatever the answer may be, it will be neither good nor bad, thus keep meditating and keep the mind unstirred and in the area between attachment and detachment. Do not drift, do not marvel, do not question. Be the medium for transformation.

 

Do not try to unravel the mind, let it unravel itself; it understands it's construct better than you do, it knows what to let you know and when. To contemplate it's highs while standing at it's lows will lead to but more questions ad infinitum, this is most consuming of time best dedicated to achieving no thought rather than active thought.

 

The understanding will come on it's own, do not pursue it.

Answers will come to questions which you do not know exist yet.

 

I think when you understand emptiness, you will have no concept of understanding, "understanding" will be replaced with a nameless, formless experience. Let the onion peel itself.

 

 

wow , what you said is so beautiful ,

let it come? ? lol i like that , thanx

[3bob]

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains,

and waters as waters.

When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point

where I saw that mountains are not mountains,

and waters are not waters.

But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest.

For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains,

and waters once again as waters"

 

- Ching-yuan

[dnice]

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains,

and waters as waters.

When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point

where I saw that mountains are not mountains,

and waters are not waters.

But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest.

For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains,

and waters once again as waters"

 

- Ching-yuan

 

 

 

thanks

[RiverSnake]

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains,

and waters as waters.

When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point

where I saw that mountains are not mountains,

and waters are not waters.

But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest.

For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains,

and waters once again as waters"

 

- Ching-yuan

 

Seems like everyone is drinking the same kool-aid

 

"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick." Bruce Lee

Edited July 26, 2010 by Tao Apprentice

[xabir2005]

I have been doing alot of meditation focusing on the "I" , and i was reading something and it said , "Dont try to find what you are , but find what you are not"

 

So i know i cant be just this body because this body has spontaneous movements, When i itch i scratch my self , after i thought about the mind , and i realized that how can i be just the mind? because when i meditate i can watch my thoughts ..

 

 

then came the feeling that i am controlled by something else, Where do these thoughts come from? why do my thoughts feel so fake, but if i stay in silence im able to feel this emptiness that seems more realer then the voice in my head ....am i this emptiness? what is emptiness? does this emptiness watch the thoughts?

is this emptiness consciousness ? how do i understand emptiness?

 

 

Am i typing this? , or is it typing all by itself?

 

wow im going to lose my fuken mind .

 

 

If i continue to meditate on this emptiness that is silent will i reach "samadhi" ?

My friend Thusness warned me many years ago that self-inquiry can lead to an utter state of confusion and suffering. (before realization)

 

However, as Zen Buddhism often says - Great Doubt comes Great Awakening; Small Doubt comes Small Awakening, No Doubt comes No Awakening.

 

Keep investigating and questioning 'Who am I?' Don't get stuck in any types of samadhi - what you want is Self-Realization, NOT a temporary samadhi state.

 

Also, if you experience an inert/dead silence or emptiness, that is not it - who/what perceives that state? Keep investigating until you arrive at a non-conceptual Realization and Certainty of Being. At this moment, there is no such thing as 'unsure', no such doubts as 'is this Consciousness?', there is only the actual full authentication of the innermost essence.

 

Completely certain, unmoved, and still. I AM.

 

Both Thusness and I achieved self-realization through self-inquiry and can testify that this is the direct path to self-realization (which happened 'for me', conventionally speaking, earlier this year when I was still 19, and less than 2 years before I started self-inquiry). Thusness attained self-realization when he was 17, and it also did not took him long to realize that (probably much faster than me). Of course all these are not so important other than just encouragements and reminders that you are indeed practicing a direct path to realization.

 

See my document (currently 213 pages long) detailing my insights, experiences, and conversations on the practice of Self-Inquiry at http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63

 

Ken Wilber:

 

There are many things that I can doubt, but I cannot doubt my own consciousness in this moment. My consciousness IS, and even if I tried to doubt it, it would be my consciousness doubting. I can imagine that my senses are being presented with a fake reality – say, a completely virtual reality or digital reality, which looks real but is merely a series of extremely realist images. But even then, I cannot doubt the consciousness that is doing the watching…

 

The very undeniability of my present awareness, the undeniability of my consciousness, immediately delivers to me a certainty of existence in this moment, a certainty of Being in the now-ness of this moment. I cannot doubt consciousness and Being in this moment, for it is the ground of all knowing, all seeing, all existing…

 

Who am I? Ask that question over and over again, deeply. Who am I? What is it in me that is conscious of everything?

 

If you think that you know Spirit, or if you think you don’t, Spirit is actually that which is thinking both of those thoughts. So you can doubt the objects of consciousness, but you can never believably doubt the doubter, never really doubt the Witness of the entire display. Therefore, rest in the Witness, whether it is thinking that it knows God or not, and that witnessing, that undeniable immediacy of now-consciousness, is itself God, Spirit, Buddha-mind. The certainty lies in the pure self-felt Consciousness to which objects appear, not in the objects themselves. You will never, never, never see God, because God is the Seer, not any finite, mortal, bounded object that can be seen…

 

This pure I AM state is not hard to achieve but impossible to escape, because it is ever present and can never really be doubted. You can never run from Spirit, because Spirit is the Runner. To put it very bluntly, Spirit is not hard to find but impossible to avoid: it is that which is looking at this page right now. Can’t you feel That One? Why on earth do you keep looking for God when God is actually the Looker?

 

Simply ask, Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?

 

I am aware of my feelings, so I am not my feelings – Who am I? I am aware of my thoughts, so I am not my thoughts – Who am I? Clouds float by in the sky, thoughts float by in the mind, feelings float by in the body – and I am none of those because I can Witness them all.

 

Moreover, I can doubt that clouds exist, I can doubt that feelings exist, I can doubt that objects of thought exist – but I cannot doubt that the Witness exists in this moment, because the Witness would still be there to witness the doubt.

 

I am not objects in nature, not feelings in the body, not thoughts in the mind, for I can Witness them all. I am that Witness – a vast, spacious, empty, clear, pure, transparent Openness that impartially notices all that arises, as a mirror spontaneously reflects all its objects…

 

You can already feel some of this Great Liberation in that, as you rest in the ease of witnessing this moment, you already feel that you are free from the suffocating constriction of mere objects, mere feelings, mere thoughts – they all come and go, but you are that vast, free, empty, open Witness of them all, untouched by their torments and tortures.

 

This is actually the profound discovery of… the pure divine Self, the formless Witness, causal nothingness, the vast Emptiness in which the entire world arises, stays a bit, and passes. And you are That. You are not the body, not the ego, not nature, not thoughts, not this, not that – you are a vast Emptiness, Freedom, Release, and Liberation.

 

With this discovery… you are halfway home. You have disidentified from any and all finite objects; you rest as infinite Consciousness. You are free, open, empty, clear, radiant, released, liberated, exalted, drenched in a blissful emptiness that exists prior to space, prior to time, prior to tears and terror, prior to pain and mortality and suffering and death. You have found the great Unborn, the vast Abyss, the unqualifiable Ground of all that is, and all that was, and all that ever shall be.

 

But why is that only halfway home? Because as you rest in the infinite ease of consciousness, spontaneously aware of all that is arising, there will soon enough come the great catastrophe of Freedom and Fullness: the Witness itself will disappear entirely, and instead of witnessing the sky, you are the sky; instead of touching the earth, you are the earth; instead of hearing the thunder, you are the thunder. You and the entire Kosmos because One Taste – you can drink the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp, hold Mt. Everest in the palm of your hand; supernovas swirl in your heart and the solar system replaces your head…

 

You are One Taste, the empty mirror that is one with any and all objects that arise in its embrace, a mindlessly vast translucent expanse: infinite, eternal, radiant beyond release. And you… are… That…

 

So the primary Cartesian dualism – which is simply the dualism between… in here and out there, subject and object, the empty Witness and all things witnessed – is finally undone and overcome in nondual One Taste. Once you actually and fully contact the Witness, then – and only then – can it be transcended into radical Nonduality, and halfway home becomes fully home, here in the ever-present wonder of what is…

 

And so how do you know that you have finally and really overcome the Cartesian dualism? Very simple: if you really overcome the Cartesian dualism, then you no longer feel that you are on this side of your face looking at the world out there. There is only the world, and you are all of that; you actually feel that you are one with everything that is arising moment to moment. You are not merely on this side of your face looking out there. “In here” and “out there” have become One Taste with a shuddering obviousness and certainty so profound it feels like a five-ton rock just dropped on your head. It is, shall we say, a feeling hard to miss.

 

At that point, which is actually your ever-present condition, there is no exclusive identity with this particular organism, no constriction of consciousness to the head, a constriction that makes it seem that “you” are in the head looking at the rest of the world out there; there is no binding of attention to the personal bodymind: instead, consciousness is one with all that is arising – a vast, open, transparent, radiant, infinitely Free and infinitely Full expanse that embraces the entire Kosmos, so that every single subject and every single object are erotically united in the Great Embrace of One Taste. You disappear from merely being behind your eyes, and you become the All, you directly and actually feel that your basic identity is everything that is arising moment to moment (just as previously you felt that your identity was with this finite, partial, separate, mortal coil of flesh you call a body). Inside and outside have become One Taste. I tell you, it can happen just like that!

 

(Source: Boomeritis, Sidebar E: “The Genius Descartes Gets a Postmodern Drubbing: Integral Historiography in a Postmodern Age”. More to be found in The Simple Feeling of Being, a collection of Ken Wilber’s inspirational, mystical and instructional passages drawn from his publications, based on his experiences.)

Edited July 28, 2010 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

From page 152 of my document:

 

27th June 2010

 

Qn: AEN,

 

Ramana Maharshi: If one then enquires 'Who am I?' the mind will turn back to its source

 

When I enquires 'Who am I?', basically the mind becomes blank and no answers at all. Does this mean the mind has turned back to it s source?

 

No. What you have done is that you get stuck and identified with a subtle mental state or experience, in this case an experience of blankness. Don't stop here. You are now progressing from total identification with mind and concepts to identification with a state of blankness. So you are progressing beyond the mind, but this is still not 'it', it is still another experience, so do not get stuck. This state of blankness is well known and many masters have warned us against getting stuck in such a state. However, do not seek for a conceptual answer - if the mind becomes blank and no answers come up, know that this is still much better than clinging to a conceptual answer - do not try to make up your 'no answer' with a conceptual answer - if you don't know through direct experience, keeping a 'don't know' attitude is much better as that means you are open to continue exploring your direct experience, rather than clinging to a mental conclusion/speculation that blocks direct realization. Yes, there is an answer to your Koan, but the answer cannot be found in the mind. The answer is found through an immediate, intuitive Realization, it cannot be fabricated.

 

If you experience the blankness, ask yourself, "Who is aware of that blankness?" What you are looking for is not an experience or state (whether blankness or somethingness), but what you are investigating is 'What is Aware of those states and experiences', whether the states be blank, something, or what not. To have an experience of blankness or somethingness, there must be a Witnessing, an Awareness of that experience. You are that ever-present Awareness. So What is Aware? Don't think - but look, investigate, until you touch your Being so directly that a non-conceptual certainty arises. All certainty and doubtlessness comes from immediate non-conceptual directness (direct experience), all doubts and questions come from conceptual thinking and inference. By doing this inquiry, you are turning the light around even from the experience of blankness, to the Source of the experience of blankness. Underneath the comings and goings of thoughts and blankness, there is a constant shining Presence-Awareness that allows these experiences to arise, and That is what you are.

 

Looking back, right before the Certainty of Being arose, thoughts gradually died down until only a state of blankness prevailed. But there is still a sense of dullness or unclarity in this state. This is just one step away from realization, because if you are unable to let the thoughts 'die down', it is very difficult to look non-conceptually. But a blank state is still not it. But anyway, at that point, while I was in that blank state, I turned around and look at Who am I? Even in that blank state, I am undeniably Present and Aware, to know/see that blank state. I cannot deny my sense of existence. So What is This? What am I? What is Aware? It all happened very quickly through this inquiry and though by writing this made it sound like a narrative or inferential/conceptual process, the process of inquiry was actually much more direct and intuitive than narrative and inferential... through this direct inquiry/direct looking, a sudden noticing and realization of the undeniable I AMness 'happened' - and the truth was shone so vividly and brilliantly that there can be no doubts to it.

The Grand Master Hsu Yun cautioned; "in our meditation if we lose sight of the hua tou, while dwelling in stillness, there results an indistinct void ness where-in there is nothing. Clinging to this state of stillness is a Chan illness which we should never contract while undergoing our training. This is the unrecordable dead emptiness." On another occasion he said; "awareness without contemplation will lead to confusion and instability, and contemplation without awareness will result in immersion in stagnant water." This unrecordable dead emptiness is a state where there is little activity of mind - no thoughts. It is a state where cognition is lost or diminished and the meditator has entered a trance. It is important that a highly focused state of mind be maintained at all times. This is the mind that dwells on and in the hua tou it is a union with that which is "the unborn, undying.”

 

"The gap between two thoughts is essence. But if in that gap there is a lack of presence, it becomes ignorance and we experience only a lack of awareness, almost an unconsciousness. If there is presence in the gap, then we experience the dharmakaya [the ultimate]." ~ Tenzin Wangyal

 

"What you are in essence is self-shining, pure intelligence. The very idea of shining implies a movement. Movement is energy. So, I call it 'pure intelligence-energy'. It is shining through your eyes. You cannot say what it is, and you cannot negate it either. It is 'no thing'. It cannot be objectified. It ever expresses as that living, vibrant sense of presence, which translates through the mind as the thought 'I am'. The primary thought 'I am' is not the reality. It is the closest the mind or thought can ever get to reality, for reality to the mind is inconceivable. It is no thing. Without the thought 'I am', is it stillness? Is it silence? Or is there a vibrancy about it, a livingness, a self-shining-ness? All these expressions are mental concepts or pointers towards it, but the bottom line is that you know that you are. You cannot negate that knowing that you are. It is not a dead, empty, silent stillness. It is not about keeping the mind silent, but seeing that what is prior to the mind is the very livingness itself. It is very subtle.

 

When you see that that is what you are, then the very subtleness expresses itself. That is the uncaused joy. Nisargadatta puts it beautifully. He puts it in the negative: 'There is nothing wrong any more'. We think that we have to attain something and then stay there. Realize that you have never left it at any time. It is effortless. You don't have to try or strive or grasp or hold. You are That."~ Sailor Bob Adamson

 

Qn: Asya's Rest As Awareness seems to ask mediators to rest the mind in its source. If so, what is the difference between self-inquiry and this method.

 

 

Self-Inquiry will lead to a Realization, a sudden, intuitive, unshakeable 'Eureka!'-like Realization of You/Who You Are. It is not simply an experience of Awareness, but the Realization of YOU, your true identity, as that Awareness. It is a non-conceptual realization, certainty, of your very Being. I had lots of glimpses, experiences and recognitions of Awareness prior to the Certainty of Being that I wrote, but the experience is different from the Realization. Resting as Awareness is important prior and after the Realization of Awareness (and the Realization will also make you understand the importance of natural resting in the non-conceptual certainty of your Being rather than chasing after thoughts), but the Realization part is very important as well. Otherwise, why would Adyashanti teach self-inquiry apart from 'resting as Awareness'?

 

What you must understand is this: Resting as Awareness is important, because you need to rest the mind's conceptualizations in order to directly touch the essence of Awareness. However that 'resting of conceptualization' should not prevent you from investigating/self-inquiring in a non-conceptual way. It is actually not contradictory. But if you simply stop defining and conceptualizing and neglect the investigation part, you will never know Who You Are. You have to directly and intuitively experience that non-conceptual certainty of I AM. And this is what I have been trying to tell you.

 

Again... the topic of experience/realization is being discussed (though I think you have read it) in 3) Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives

Edited July 28, 2010 by xabir2005

[de_paradise]

I have been doing alot of meditation focusing on the "I" , and i was reading something and it said , "Dont try to find what you are , but find what you are not"

 

So i know i cant be just this body because this body has spontaneous movements, When i itch i scratch my self , after i thought about the mind , and i realized that how can i be just the mind? because when i meditate i can watch my thoughts ..

 

 

then came the feeling that i am controlled by something else, Where do these thoughts come from? why do my thoughts feel so fake, but if i stay in silence im able to feel this emptiness that seems more realer then the voice in my head ....am i this emptiness? what is emptiness? does this emptiness watch the thoughts?

is this emptiness consciousness ? how do i understand emptiness?

 

 

Am i typing this? , or is it typing all by itself?

 

wow im going to lose my fuken mind .

 

 

If i continue to meditate on this emptiness that is silent will i reach "samadhi" ?

 

 

My model has an outer body, an energetic body, and a higher mind. Regular thoughts as they go through your head are generally of the outer body in my model, that is ones that pertain to you as a seperate entity.

 

 

Heres the interesting bit: There's a kind of pre-complex-thought point we call "intent" So I make it my habit to find and isolate intent during the day. So I'm riding my bike down the street, and notice the intent that is driving me forward. So I just settle my mind, no thoughts in particular, and place my awareness on the intent, and it feels relaxing and good. This is similar to internal martial arts where the teacher wants you to relax, not think about the punches, but that groove area of intent. Settling yourself in that area of intent creates a great flow of qi, and somehow feels connected to the oneness, while still remaining an individual.

 

You can also connect with your intent during meditation and it makes it optimal. Lots and lots of time in meditation will help purify you levels of mind so you can feel more in touch with the oneness, this state of so-called "abiding in the Self" (capital S means the oneness) Thats not to say Ive acheived all that, just I can feel the road, and intuit the way forward.

 

The other day, just by coinicidence I mentioned Ramana Maharshi to my friend, as we were eating pizza, and was just explaining to him different paths possible, and just as I mentioned his name out loud I got this full body energetic zing, as if Ramana just glanced over to me. Anyway, interesting coincidence.

[effilang]

Most of the time when i read a thread on this forum which was started by a question such as the OPs, i tend to skip all the replies that go into detail.

 

I simply try to avoid any and all sorts of conceptions and personal ideas or models about anything and everything. I practice keeping my mind pure and free of obstructions and expectations based on ideas and understandings. Information can be a very dangerous thing, especially when it comes differently from many sources.

[xabir2005]

Most of the time when i read a thread on this forum which was started by a question such as the OPs, i tend to skip all the replies that go into detail.

 

I simply try to avoid any and all sorts of conceptions and personal ideas or models about anything and everything. I practice keeping my mind pure and free of obstructions and expectations based on ideas and understandings. Information can be a very dangerous thing, especially when it comes differently from many sources.

Information can be very helpful if it comes from someone with true authentic insights, realization and experience. There are plenty of books out there that can be very helpful (and each book probably has like hundreds of pages of text so whatever is discussed here pales in comparison in terms of details). These information are not just conceptual information to be stuffed somewhere into your mind - rather, they are helpful pointers in practice that will enable you to overcome any obstacles to true Realization.

 

Anyway your method of practice seems more like Taoism's Zuowang, and is very different from the OP's method of practice which is the Advaita or Zen technique of self-inquiry. Different goal as well... while you are aiming to enter into the state of nothingness, self-inquiry is done to attain the Realization of Self.

Edited July 26, 2010 by xabir2005

[effilang]

Information can be very helpful if it comes from someone with true authentic insights, realization and experience. There are plenty of books out there that can be very helpful (and each book probably has like hundreds of pages of text so whatever is discussed here pales in comparison in terms of details).

 

Anyway your method of practice seems more like Taoism's Zuowang, and is very different from the OP's method of practice which is the Advaita or Zen technique of self-inquiry. Different goal as well... while you are aiming to enter into the state of nothingness, self-inquiry is done to attain the Realization of Self.

 

I did not say information or inquiry are not useful. Self-inquiry yes, much useful. However, i personally strive to maintain this inquiry within the realm of my mind, rather than anyone else's.

 

When you do not understand something, and ask for it's theory the resulting outcome is not truly understanding but conceptualization of ideas, thus simply ego in my opinion. The only understanding, the only questions and inquiries worth making as far as i am concerned are those that arise naturally within the internal evolution of the still mind.

 

I can't separate the state of nothingness from self-inquiry. To reach nothingness, to reach the calm of the mind is the ultimate self-inquiry. It is the formless inquiry of the self, that which is not confined to the rigid body of a constructed question. It is non linear. To me to cultivate nothingness within is to inquire into the depth of the mind, but not with "a" question, but with the root of all questions, emptiness itself; meeting emptiness with emptiness. My answers come from the question i never ask.

 

I respect your view, there is much to be learned and many ways to learn it, but if there is but one Tao, then surely walking the path and feeling the earth beneath the soles of your own two feet would be deemed a better capable product to satisfy questions than asking someone else to describe their understanding of the former sensation as perceived by their personal senses; This would create a rigid concept and propel expectation, this is the false path.

 

I think if one strives too hard to understand, their practice will be plagued by much uncertainty, and what certainty can one seek in the UNcertain in the first place, to my mind it is absurd to contemplate this, akin to asking why fire is fire and why the wind is the wind. You will never know, until you become fire and wind itself.

Edited July 26, 2010 by effilang

[三江源]

My model has an outer body, an energetic body, and a higher mind. Regular thoughts as they go through your head are generally of the outer body in my model, that is ones that pertain to you as a seperate entity.

 

 

Heres the interesting bit: There's a kind of pre-complex-thought point we call "intent" So I make it my habit to find and isolate intent during the day. So I'm riding my bike down the street, and notice the intent that is driving me forward. So I just settle my mind, no thoughts in particular, and place my awareness on the intent, and it feels relaxing and good. This is similar to internal martial arts where the teacher wants you to relax, not think about the punches, but that groove area of intent. Settling yourself in that area of intent creates a great flow of qi, and somehow feels connected to the oneness, while still remaining an individual.

 

You can also connect with your intent during meditation and it makes it optimal. Lots and lots of time in meditation will help purify you levels of mind so you can feel more in touch with the oneness, this state of so-called "abiding in the Self" (capital S means the oneness) Thats not to say Ive acheived all that, just I can feel the road, and intuit the way forward.

 

The other day, just by coinicidence I mentioned Ramana Maharshi to my friend, as we were eating pizza, and was just explaining to him different paths possible, and just as I mentioned his name out loud I got this full body energetic zing, as if Ramana just glanced over to me. Anyway, interesting coincidence.

 

yes, thanks for sharing, I really appreciate it. That's fun to know about the Ramana Maharishi moment.. interesting, isnt it. No space , no seperation. Not a coincidence , though..

 

connecting with intent, being aware of intent, is an art in itself, to keep coming back to that and relaxing it, aligning it with higher self.

 

on and on and on.

[xabir2005]

I did not say information or inquiry are not useful. Self-inquiry yes, much useful. However, i personally strive to maintain this inquiry within the realm of my mind, rather than anyone else's.

Just added a line before you posted: These information are not just conceptual information to be stuffed somewhere into your mind - rather, they are helpful pointers in practice that will enable you to overcome any obstacles to true Realization.

 

Information is only helpful in the realm of spiritual if it helps you (as a pointer) to discover what is true in your own direct experience.

When you do not understand something, and ask for it's theory the resulting outcome is not truly understanding but conceptualization of ideas, thus simply ego in my opinion. The only understanding, the only questions and inquiries worth making as far as i am concerned are those that arise naturally within the internal evolution of the still mind.

Yes. As I wrote in my previous post:

 

do not seek for a conceptual answer - if the mind becomes blank and no answers come up, know that this is still much better than clinging to a conceptual answer - do not try to make up your 'no answer' with a conceptual answer - if you don't know through direct experience, keeping a 'don't know' attitude is much better as that means you are open to continue exploring your direct experience, rather than clinging to a mental conclusion/speculation that blocks direct realization. Yes, there is an answer to your Koan, but the answer cannot be found in the mind. The answer is found through an immediate, intuitive Realization, it cannot be fabricated.

I can't separate the state of nothingness from self-inquiry.

To me, they are actually two separate practices with two different, distinguishable, and predictable results - in the same way that Vipassana is actually very different from Shamatha practice, or Zhuowang practice, or Self-Inquiry practice. Vipassana leads to the development of the 16 nanas (vipassana insight stages), which is absent in shamatha, zhuowang, or self-inquiry. Shamatha leads to the experience of the 8 shamatha jhanas (absorption states) but not the nanas or self-realization and so on. Self-inquiry leads to self-realization, which is absent in vipassana, zhuowang, shamatha, and so on and so forth. They produce different experiences, results, insights. We should not mix them up into some jumbled up confused view of how 'all practices are actually the same and results in the same experience' but also we should not negate their unique roles which can all be important during our spiritual journey - in other words see them as unique but complementary and helpful parts of a yogi's toolbox (something I like about dharma teacher Kenneth Folk's approach to the different practices) rather than as opposing or contradictory methods. In short we can and should develope an integral understanding and clear view of the different spiritual practices and traditions, but we should avoid getting a jumbled up confused view of them and think that Shamatha leads to Insight, or that Vipassana leads to Self-Realization, etc etc.

 

Anyway both Zhuowang and Self-Inquiry are important and I am not suggesting that one should only focus on one of them or that one practice is higher than the other. You may practice both (in fact that is precisely Thusness's instruction to me 2 years ago when I first started on self-inquiry - to practice *both* self-inquiry as well as dropping like Taoist zhuowang - preferably two separate sessions in morning and night, as self-inquiry without the practice of dropping can lead to problems) My friend Thusness practiced both in the past, in fact he started with Self-Inquiry and attained Self-Realization first, before moving on to Zuowang (he learnt from a Taiwanese Taoist teacher Gao Shan Tze), before doing Vipassana (even though his Vipassana practice is somewhat different from the Mahasi Sayadaw style of Noting-Vipassana), in that order.

 

He wrote his experiences at http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

 

You can see how self-inquiry, zhuowang, vipassana all played a role in his spiritual journey.

To reach nothingness, to reach the calm of the mind is the ultimate self-inquiry.

No, you are missing the point of self-inquiry: it is to realize the luminous pure presence of Self.

 

It is not the same as Zhuowang, which is simply to sit, forget self and everything and enter into nothingness/oblivion. Zhuowang does not aim for the realization of the pure existence of Being/Self.

 

It is important to note that 开悟，明心见性, self-realization and so on are not even mentioned at all in Taoist literature until the later developments and influence from Zen Buddhism. But even then I think there is little emphasis in Taoism on realizing the 'I AMness' that is emphasized in Zen, Advaita, etc. The closest I can think of is Thomas Cleary's translation of 'The Secret of the Golden Flower' - but that is more like a form of gradual Awareness practice rather than direct path Self-Inquiry practice aiming for self-realization.

 

Taoism places more emphasis on entering the state nothingness/oblivion in which everything is self-so, 自然, natural, spontaneous, functioning of Tao without a 'self'. This is a very important experience and insight as well.

It is the formless inquiry of the self, that which is not confined to the rigid body of a constructed question. It is non linear. To me to cultivate nothingness within is to inquire into the depth of the mind, but not with "a" question, but with the root of all questions, emptiness itself; meeting emptiness with emptiness. My answers come from the question i never ask.

In Self-Inquiry, it is also a non-conceptual approach but it's emphasis is to to look into the true nature of Self, but its goal is not to enter a state of nothingness, but to look head on and discover the Certainty of Being (Pure Presence-Awareness).

I respect your view, there is much to be learned and many ways to learn it, but if there is but one Tao, then surely walking the path and feeling the earth beneath the soles of your own two feet would be deemed a better capable product to satisfy questions than asking someone else to describe their understanding of the former sensation as perceived by their personal senses; This would create a rigid concept and propel expectation, this is the false path.

 

I think if one strives too hard to understand, their practice will be plagued by much uncertainty, and what certainty can one seek in the UNcertain in the first place, to my mind it is absurd to contemplate this, akin to asking why fire is fire and why the wind is the wind. You will never know, until you become fire and wind itself.

Yes, we can never approach reality through logic, induction, or deduction. Thoughts and concepts can never lead to true certainty and at most serves as a helpful pointer - of course on that level it has its place (a clear conceptual view of things is much more helpful than an unclear, confused conceptual view of things which is usually misleading and harmful, but both unclear and clear conceptual views alone does not result in true experiential realization).

 

To arrive at true certainty, there must be a direct mode of experiencing and observing reality as it is.

 

As Thusness commented in Daniel's forum Dharma Overground in early 2009 (and I highly some parts for emphasis):

 

"Hi Gary,

 

It appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite new here so I may be wrong.

 

My take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the ‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.

 

On the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of non-dual awareness.

Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.

 

Awakening to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the ‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of immediacy'."

 

The same applies to Taoist non-conceptual meditations/practices.

 

Further as he wrote to me ( http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/391975 ) - ...Therefore in your experience of the “I AMness”, I advise you to understand this experience from the perspective of “direct and non-conceptual aspect of perception” and how by being “direct and non-conceptual” creates that sort of ‘certain, unshakable and undeniable’ confidence. That is, if a practitioner is fully authenticated from moment to moment the arising and passing phenomena, the practitioner will always have this sensation of ‘certain and unshaken’ confidence...

Edited July 26, 2010 by xabir2005

[Everything]

We are all everything? We are all the same? No word or name truely defines us, or anything. They are just tags for communication of human beings. This has arrised from our ability to try and predict the future, but the future can never truely be predicted. When it comes to such questions as "What am I?" Don't expect to find your self in a dictionary.

 

I can take it one step further and say that everything and nothing is the same. There is only infinity. Your non-being is where your wisdom comes from, and the place in you where everything is one is where love comes from.

 

What I am expecting is that you are having issues with your identity, which raises the question of "what am I?" Perhaps other people have raised this question FOR you, by questioning your identity. Such as "You never know what you want." "You don't accept no for an answer." "Decide already!" These are indications that our individuality, our place in this universe, is being questioned by our self... Because we ARE everything. Stay in grace for these questions and confront them fully.

 

Explore your boundaries fully, just like in several myths. You must be the hero and fight the dragon and die... Your warrior will not arise when your hero has not faced death. Not knowing your limitation, you can never truely be a warrior. These limitations will set boundaries around yourself that seperate the you from others. You can decline and accept declines, you can fight and recover from hurt or loss quickly. You will stay durable, and you can lend your durability to others.

 

Thank you for reading.

[C T]

it is to realize the luminous pure presence of Self.

 

Greetings Xabir!

 

Would be great to hear an elaboration on this Self - is it some kind of supreme consciousness thing, the one that Dwai mentions so often?

 

Thanks!

Edited July 26, 2010 by CowTao

[xabir2005]

Greetings Xabir!

 

Would be great to hear an elaboration on this Self - is it some kind of supreme consciousness thing, the one that Dwai mentions so often?

 

Thanks!

It is the same as what Dwai talks about. Edited July 26, 2010 by xabir2005

[effilang]

Good points Xabir!

 

I feel much at ease with your discussion.

 

I find myself beset from both sides by a realm of emotion and intellect. In my meditation i naturally dwell in the residence between self-inquiry and emptiness. Perhaps this is why i do not distinguish between the two because i develop within the third, which observes both the left and the right, but is neither and both at the same time.

 

For me to say that it is the most appropriate path would be wrong, because both are appropriate in their own distinct measure. But out of my stillness i have come to this center and when inquiry or stillness arise i cannot differentiate either because i am there where they originate.

 

As for obstacles in meditation, i believe that as long as you maintain detached from manifestations the following is sufficient to help you overcome all barriers:

 

"It is neither good nor bad, keep meditating" - I find the answers and the questions by the middle way, but instigate neither manually.

 

Beyond this i have found nothing else worth too much attention, because at the end of my day, no matter what my intellect has fused from the separate components of acquired theory, in my stillness it is all de-constructed into nothingness, thus i find it hard to solely assume the path of inquiry and for other reasons only the path of emptiness. I am in the middle where i have been placed by being without direction.

 

[C T]

It is the same as what Dwai talks about.

Thank you. Clear.

[C T]

 

I find myself beset from both sides by a realm of emotion and intellect. In my meditation i naturally dwell in the residence between self-inquiry and emptiness. Perhaps this is why i do not distinguish between the two because i develop within the third, which observes both the left and the right, but is neither and both at the same time.

 

For me to say that it is the most appropriate path would be wrong, because both are appropriate in their own distinct measure. But out of my stillness i have come to this center and when inquiry or stillness arise i cannot differentiate either because i am there where they originate.

 

As for obstacles in meditation, i believe that as long as you maintain detached from manifestations the following is sufficient to help you overcome all barriers:

 

"It is neither good nor bad, keep meditating" - I find the answers and the questions by the middle way, but instigate neither manually.

 

Beyond this i have found nothing else worth too much attention, because at the end of my day, no matter what my intellect has fused from the separate components of acquired theory, in my stillness it is all de-constructed into nothingness, thus i find it hard to solely assume the path of inquiry and for other reasons only the path of emptiness. I am in the middle where i have been placed by being without direction.

 

Thanks for sharing. I see you are in a 'good' place Effilang.

[xabir2005]

Good points Xabir!

 

I feel much at ease with your discussion.

 

I find myself beset from both sides by a realm of emotion and intellect. In my meditation i naturally dwell in the residence between self-inquiry and emptiness. Perhaps this is why i do not distinguish between the two because i develop within the third, which observes both the left and the right, but is neither and both at the same time.

 

For me to say that it is the most appropriate path would be wrong, because both are appropriate in their own distinct measure. But out of my stillness i have come to this center and when inquiry or stillness arise i cannot differentiate either because i am there where they originate.

 

As for obstacles in meditation, i believe that as long as you maintain detached from manifestations the following is sufficient to help you overcome all barriers:

 

"It is neither good nor bad, keep meditating" - I find the answers and the questions by the middle way, but instigate neither manually.

 

Beyond this i have found nothing else worth too much attention, because at the end of my day, no matter what my intellect has fused from the separate components of acquired theory, in my stillness it is all de-constructed into nothingness, thus i find it hard to solely assume the path of inquiry and for other reasons only the path of emptiness. I am in the middle where i have been placed by being without direction.

 

Thanks for sharing.. you just reminded me of something. Are you the one I shared the article 'The Provisional Acceptance of the Witness' article with months ago? Posts disappears in TheTaoBums... just got reminded I better save my posts somewhere in case I want to reference to them in future.