what the *** am i?

[suninmyeyes]

 

Am i typing this? , or is it typing all by itself?

 

wow im going to lose my fuken mind .

 

 

 

lose the mind?it is imposibble becouse mind does not really exist .hahahaha welcome to the madhouse!

[effilang]

Not sure xabir-san, could have been seeing as i am familiar with the article. My memory fails me

 

I save my posts in a separate diary and review them later on to see how my understanding has changed; sometimes i face-palm other times i marvel at my views.

 

There are many great posts on this forum and many great minds, i like it here : )

Edited July 26, 2010 by effilang

[beoman]

Both Thusness and I achieved self-realization through self-inquiry and can testify that this is the direct path to self-realization (which happened 'for me', conventionally speaking, earlier this year when I was still 19, and less than 2 years before I started self-inquiry). Thusness attained self-realization when he was 17, and it also did not took him long to realize that (probably much faster than me). Of course all these are not so important other than just encouragements and reminders that you are indeed practicing a direct path to realization.

 

What is self-realization exactly? Is it enlightenment / reaching nirvana as the Buddhists describe it? Is it realizing non-duality ? Something else? Are these all the same thing?

[xabir2005]

What is self-realization exactly? Is it enlightenment / reaching nirvana as the Buddhists describe it? Is it realizing non-duality ? Something else? Are these all the same thing?

You question is not so simple to answer... But what you need to understand is that enlightenment is not just a 'one type final realization' thingy - many people thought enlightenment is 'one and final' and are confused.

 

I suggest you read my friend's Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

 

He is far more experienced than me and I have learnt a lot from him... I consider him my teacher as well.

 

When I said he attained self-realization when 17, I am refering to the first stage. He is now 42.

 

p.s. if you're asking about Buddhism, the classical texts in Buddhism states that to attain even the first stage of Bodhisattva enlightenment (there are 10 bhumis), you have to realize the Emptiness of Self (Anatta) and the Emptiness of Dharmas - which are corresponded to Thusness Stage 5 and Thusness Stage 6 respectively. Whereas, a Buddhist Arhant is thought by some to have only realized Emptiness of Self but not Emptiness of Dharmas, but this is debatable and I digress. Anyway, hope it gives you some perspective on what insights are necessary to be classified as a Buddhist Arya...

Edited July 26, 2010 by xabir2005

[adept]

Xabir 2005, your wisdom shines through in your posts.

You are very well mannered and courteous and obviously have a great deal of experience in these matters.

I have learned a lot just from reading your posts in this thread.

Thank you very much.

[xabir2005]

Xabir 2005, your wisdom shines through in your posts.

You are very well mannered and courteous and obviously have a great deal of experience in these matters.

I have learned a lot just from reading your posts in this thread.

Thank you very much.

Hi, nothing much really.. I'm still just a learner...

[beoman]

You question is not so simple to answer... But what you need to understand is that enlightenment is not just a 'one type final realization' thingy - many people thought enlightenment is 'one and final' and are confused.

 

I suggest you read my friend's Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

 

He is far more experienced than me and I have learnt a lot from him... I consider him my teacher as well.

 

When I said he attained self-realization when 17, I am refering to the first stage. He is now 42.

 

p.s. if you're asking about Buddhism, the classical texts in Buddhism states that to attain even the first stage of Bodhisattva enlightenment (there are 10 bhumis), you have to realize the Emptiness of Self (Anatta) and the Emptiness of Dharmas - which are corresponded to Thusness Stage 5 and Thusness Stage 6 respectively. Whereas, a Buddhist Arhant is thought by some to have only realized Emptiness of Self but not Emptiness of Dharmas, but this is debatable and I digress. Anyway, hope it gives you some perspective on what insights are necessary to be classified as a Buddhist Arya...

 

Ah thank you for the link. I did think of enlightenment as a 'one and final' thing, due to many descriptions of it

being like "it's as if you remember something so basic it's blatantly obvious, yet you didn't see it before", or

likened it to waking up ("it's as sudden as if you were sleeping and now you're awake").

 

This stuff is pretty confusing sometimes. I'm not quite sure how to go about it. there are so many different

views and theories with lots in common, lots not in common, a lot of admonishments not to study

the wrong way. even just within Buddhism it's confusing. first I hear that the core is to remove all

attachments and you'll attain nirvana. i hear there is no self. then I see sutras where I hear ridiculous sounding things

like "if you recite even one word of this sutra, your merit will be

greater than if you donated mounds upon mounds of gold and you will have good fortune for the next

500 lifetimes". then even though there is no soul they talk about rebirth (although i've started understanding

that one, and the current thread on the topic did help too). and it's hard to reconcile that w/ the practice of

just meditating. and then daily life gets in the way =P.

 

hmm who knows? ill keep trying things. hopefully ill find a teacher at some point who will guide me.

[xabir2005]

Ah thank you for the link. I did think of enlightenment as a 'one and final' thing, due to many descriptions of it

being like "it's as if you remember something so basic it's blatantly obvious, yet you didn't see it before", or

likened it to waking up ("it's as sudden as if you were sleeping and now you're awake").

 

This stuff is pretty confusing sometimes. I'm not quite sure how to go about it. there are so many different

views and theories with lots in common, lots not in common, a lot of admonishments not to study

the wrong way. even just within Buddhism it's confusing. first I hear that the core is to remove all

attachments and you'll attain nirvana. i hear there is no self. then I see sutras where I hear ridiculous sounding things

like "if you recite even one word of this sutra, your merit will be

greater than if you donated mounds upon mounds of gold and you will have good fortune for the next

500 lifetimes". then even though there is no soul they talk about rebirth (although i've started understanding

that one, and the current thread on the topic did help too). and it's hard to reconcile that w/ the practice of

just meditating. and then daily life gets in the way =P.

 

hmm who knows? ill keep trying things. hopefully ill find a teacher at some point who will guide me.

Buddhism may not be the simplest thing to understand... but the deeper you go you'll find that the teaching is actually very consistent.

 

As for the merits... I think you might be referring to Diamond Sutra:

 

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_sutra_text/page13.html

 

"Subhuti, if a good and faithful person, whether male or female, has, for the sake of compassion and charity, been sacrificing their life for generation upon generation, for as many generations as the grains of sands in 3,000 universes; and another follower has been studying and observing even a single section of this Sutra and explains it to others, that person's blessings and merit would be far greater."

Edited July 26, 2010 by xabir2005

[beoman]

Buddhism may not be the simplest thing to understand... but the deeper you go you'll find that the teaching is actually very consistent.

 

As for the merits... I think you might be referring to Diamond Sutra:

 

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_sutra_text/page13.html

 

"Subhuti, if a good and faithful person, whether male or female, has, for the sake of compassion and charity, been sacrificing their life for generation upon generation, for as many generations as the grains of sands in 3,000 universes; and another follower has been studying and observing even a single section of this Sutra and explains it to others, that person's blessings and merit would be far greater."

 

Yep that's the one. What's up w/ that? I sometimes heard that the Buddha divided his teachings into those for his monks and those for the laypeople, and when saying things to the laypeople he often said things that weren't strictly true (like to scare people into doing good deeds, he'd say that they would suffer in future lives if they did bad deeds in this one). is this maybe an instance of that, just to get us to preserve the sutra because he found it important?

 

also him finding something important.. wouldn't that be an attachment? =P

[xabir2005]

Yep that's the one. What's up w/ that? I sometimes heard that the Buddha divided his teachings into those for his monks and those for the laypeople, and when saying things to the laypeople he often said things that weren't strictly true (like to scare people into doing good deeds, he'd say that they would suffer in future lives if they did bad deeds in this one). is this maybe an instance of that, just to get us to preserve the sutra because he found it important?

 

also him finding something important.. wouldn't that be an attachment? =P

Haha that's funny... I don't think he is 'scaring' people. It is true that if you did bad deeds in this life, you get bad consequences in next life, karma and rebirth are facts that can be proven through meditation. Not only did Buddha remember his past lives and karma, many of my friends and teachers (who I know personally and are still alive) can remember their past lives and karma. It is not just belief, Buddha was speaking from experience.

 

Buddha probably spoke more on 'merits' 'karma' to lay persons because not all lay persons are focused on attaining liberation (probably in those times most of them who are truly interested in liberation and enlightenment are highly likely to have renounced as a monk - though not always the case). The next best thing to enlightenment would be to have a good enough rebirth in the next life to continue cultivation/dharma practice.

 

By the way... you can think about the merits this way. If you donate to charity, it may help someone have a meal or two, but if you 'donate dharma' (teach the teachings to someone else), you may plant a seed in him that will one day sprout into full enlightenment and Buddhahood... and be of benefit to countless sentient beings. In this way, he is ensuring the liberation and enlightenment of countless sentient beings... rather than just a meal for a poor and needy (of course this does not mean donating to poor and needy are unimportant). By giving a meal you ensure that a person is free from hunger for a day... by teaching the dharma, you may in fact be freeing sentient beings from the beginningless cycle of birth and death in samsara.. freedom from all sufferings.

 

Buddha: "The gift of Dhamma excels all gifts."

Edited July 26, 2010 by xabir2005

[dnice]

thank you very much , i really mean it ,

 

I have changed alot as a man , I am now more opened to life, and want to experience things,

i realized that my "created imaginary character" only stops me from experiencing life,

 

My only problem is that i might get bored of this stuff, So i realized spiritual friends are very important .

 

i hope life keeps me strong so i can truthfully understand myself .

[xabir2005]

[Raymond Wolter]

Both Thusness and I achieved self-realization through self-inquiry and can testify that this is the direct path to self-realization (which happened 'for me', conventionally speaking, earlier this year when I was still 19, and less than 2 years before I started self-inquiry).

 

Hi Xabir,

 

I have not had the opportunity to speak with anyone so far who accepts they are self-realized. I, at this point, am NOT interested in a comparison between self-realization and Emptiness/DO or how one transcends the other etc.

 

What I am interested to know is what is with you after Self-realization? How has your body changed after this? Have you become healthier? Can you heal? Do you have heightened intuition? Do you have any so-called Siddhis?

 

Or you are still the same being who feels pain and pleasure but have a greater sense of serenity? Have you found your energy body open up? Do you shoot energy around you with mere presence? So what is that is different now apart from a certain "mental" state of perception/awareness/whatever?

 

Do you experience flashes of brilliance? Do your words flow spontaneously when you write or you still find use quoting from the suttas? I am trying to understand if self-realization has anything to with physiology and energy body at all and anything apart from the "mind".

Edited July 27, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[xabir2005]

Hi Xabir,

 

I have not had the opportunity to speak with anyone so far who accepts they are self-realized. I, at this point, am NOT interested in a comparison between self-realization and Emptiness/DO or how one transcends the other etc.

Ok. That was not the point of this discussion anyway. But I should also note that D.O. does not contradict the earlier realizations, it is simply a complementary and additional insight that clears away any subtle views and reifications... but the previous experience, the luminosity and clarity is not denied.

 

I wrote about this in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/11/keep-experience-refine-view.html

What I am interested to know is what is with you after Self-realization? How has your body changed after this? Have you become healthier?

No not noticeably for this body - I think if you're talking about physique: exercising, working out at gym, having a healthy diet is more important than self-realization. I am becoming healthier nowadays, but that's because I am changing my lifestyle and training myself up as I am going to be enlisted into the army soon (mandatory 2 year military service in Singapore).

 

That said, Thusness, who had a much deeper enlightenment than me, talked about very noticeable bodily changes as the direct impact of realization of non-duality (thusness stage 4-5).

 

For example I wrote based on what he said in my blog:

 

Hi,

 

No, Thusness is not a vegetarian. Many enlightened Tibetan and Theravada masters are also not vegetarians. Thusness has been a businessman for many years and it is hard for him to avoid meat and business entertainment.

 

However, he did speak about benefits of vegetarianism. He told me years ago that diet is important and at one stage one will want to be vegetarian, however he still ate meat due to some circumstances. Vegetarianism will help a lot and his meditative experience told him he had to, and that fasting too is important. A lot of people do not know this. There is a bodily transformation, a crystal clear feeling, especially during/after the stabilization of non-duality in all three phases (waking, dreaming, deep-sleep). Thusness speculates that this is the cause of 'sariras' ( http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/366959#post_9218519 ) or the crystal like relics that Buddha and awakened disciples left after their parinirvana. Deep sleep (a natural non-dual samadhi) becomes crucial, however the need for sleep will also be reduced to lower than 4 hours per day.

 

And anyway, vegetarianism is particularly emphasized in the Chinese Mahayana texts (e.g. Lankavatara Sutra, Mahaparinirvana Sutra, etc), because of the practice of Great Compassion in the Bodhisattva path. Therefore it is highly recommended. But I would not go to say that you must be a vegetarian to have those experiences stated. There is no such requirements to realise the nature of mind.

Can you heal?

No, but my mom can and she isn't enlightened.

Do you have heightened intuition?

Not noticeably.

Do you have any so-called Siddhis?

No, Siddhis usually comes as a result of training in Shamatha and is not directly linked to self-realization - I have many enlightened (and some unenlightened) friends, and even my mom, who have siddhis. Shamatha means you are training in deep concentration that you can enter into the 8 samatha jhanas, which are blissful altered states of consciousness. I have experiences of entering jhanas in the past, but I no longer train in this area, and this is not my area of expertise.

 

According to Daniel M. Ingram, he manifests siddhis when he reach the 4th Jhana, as accordance to the standard Buddhist texts. You may be interested to listen to this interview with Daniel who spoke about his experience with the powers:

Buddhist Geeks episode 61: Buddhist Magic: What is Possible with the Powers?

 

Nevertheless, Thusness did make mentions that siddhis can manifest due to a very deep level of clarity/enlightenment, but I have not experienced this so far (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html )

 

As for my mom, Thusness said her chakras (never asked which) are open that's why she has some powers.

Or you are still the same being who feels pain and pleasure but have a greater sense of serenity? Have you found your energy body open up? Do you shoot energy around you with mere presence? So what is that is different now apart from a certain "mental" state of perception/awareness/whatever?

Yes, there is pain and pleasure and more serenity. Pain and pleasure are simply sensations and feelings and thoughts passing through the sky/opening of presence-awareness. The sky does not obstruct the movement of clouds, the clouds do not in actual fact obscure the bright sky. If you do not identify with them (you no longer believe that the feelings and thoughts are 'me' or 'mine'), they are just more stuff passing along in the environment just fine, there is a fundamental equanimity in the face of all kinds of sensations, feelings and thoughts (that is all that ever happens in your life). Those sensations, feelings and thoughts that pass by are not a problem - they only become a problem when we bring a 'separate me' into the picture and suffer as a result. I have experience of energy even before self-realization.

 

As for self-realization, when you are self-realized, there is intense palpable Presence/Clarity/Awareness and the sense of presence also comes with a sense of vitality, aliveness, energy. The intensity varies for me - I don't experience the same intensity throughout the day, but it is not because it is not there - the intensity of presence and aliveness is always Here and Now and ever available - just that if my focus or dwelling goes more towards the conceptual, then the intensity is not so apparent.

 

As for what is different from the 'state of awareness' and 'realization', the difference is that there is some kind of Realization involved. It is the utter certainty that you have touched and realized the core of your Being, your true identity, who you truly are. And that is not a 'state' that comes and goes. It is what you are - the irrefutable, undeniable fact of Being and Existence. There can be no doubts or uncertainties about it. It is the inescapable ground of Being and Knowing wherein all experiences manifests and subsides, but itself does not come and go.

 

You no longer have doubts about who you truly are, or notions that you can ever 'lose' your own Being (it is who you are!), or become separate from it, as it is not a 'state' but a 'fact' of reality. You realise you never was a person or self separate from Reality/Being at any moment, that you Are that Reality only.

 

And you 'know' this not through inference/deduction or any indirect or conceptual approach - but through direct authentication/realization of Being as a result of self-inquiry and direct looking ('seeing with naked awareness' as they call it). The knowing/realizing of who you are IS the BEING of who you are, and that is why Eckhart Tolle calls this 'feeling-realization' which I think could also be called 'being-realization' - both of the terms suggesting the direct-ness and non-conceptuality of this realization. This is not a form of subject-object knowledge: you do not know that you are as an object (that would imply a knower and a known), but the fact shines so obviously and vividly: YOU ARE! YOU are the Self-Shining, Self-Knowing Being-Awareness that Knows Itself by Itself. As I wrote previously, In actual experience, once you touch that 'certainty of being' that I mentioned, there is no observer and observed distinction. There is just a non-dual sense of Existence, Being, Presence, Knowing, without a sense of 'me' being separated from 'that'. You Are That Knowing which is certain that You Are! The distinction between knower, knowing, and known dissolve into That. You Are That! Direct, gapless, certain, still, non-conceptual. The moment you seek to 'know' or 're-confirm' it as a form of 'knowledge', you have already set up a distance/separation from IT. The only way you can realize this is to engage in the experiential investigation of self-inquiry (Who am I?) coupled with direct-ness of non-conceptual perception that gives rise to the realization and sense of certainty of who You are.

 

Self-Inquiry or koans can lead to this realization. I had many recognitions and experience of Awareness prior to Self-Realization, but Self-Realization is different because precisely it is the 'Realization of Self'.

Do you experience flashes of brilliance?

Yes but I call these flashes of brilliance the A&P events and it is not directly linked to self-realization.

 

As I wrote to my highly enlightened friend (Longchen/Simpo):

 

Hi.. thanks for the sharing.

I agree that real Presence has nothing to do with a visual sense of luminous light. I in fact have experience of very luminous (visual) lights and a resulting sense of unity years ago, however I categorize them as 'A&P' experiences according to Daniel Ingram's map, but this is not the I AM Presence.

 

My understanding of luminosity is that the sense of a bright vivid Awareness that is shining and illuminating all experience. This is different from a visual luminosity, but rather it seems that Presence is radiating everywhere and illuminating everything (nothing visual), very intensely. If that vivid luminosity is strong, even normal things like eating, walking, will feel so 'intense' that you will start smiling and there may even be tears. Just pure delight in Awareness. I think you may have a different experience of 'luminosity' though... the luminosity due to the deconstruction of perception was mentioned by my Master but I have not experienced yet (he said your body and mind and the surrounding environment totally disappears leaving only the light of your nature)

 

The all pervading and non-local aspect is another aspect of the I AM as you described.. so far in my experience it is only vividly experienced in a state of no thought, I do not think I can sustain a non-local, diffuse or oceanic experience in daily life (yet). I think it has to do with how in daily life, we usually fixate/get attached to a sense of a body. However there is the insight that Awareness is not in any way personal, or localized anywhere, and this insight helps us see and let go of the clinging to a locality residing inside the body. Rather than existing somewhere (like, in a body), even the body and the mind are equally seen as objects in the field of perception along with the stuff in the environment, all happening in a non-local field of Awareness rather than outside of Awareness.

 

The non-dual part is still eluding me... even though I had short glimpses. Again, thanks for sharing. I am still in the process of 'letting go'.

Do your words flow spontaneously when you write or you still find use quoting from the suttas?

Both. It flows spontaneously, but sometimes I remember a sutta that was very relevant to the topic that has a way of putting it in words very succinctly.

I am trying to understand if self-realization has anything to with physiology and energy body at all and anything apart from the "mind".

Yes, according to my friends there is indeed an energetic component to awakening. Both Thusness and Longchen described that an 'energy release' occurs as a lot of energy is fed into grasping onto conceptual thoughts or self. I think only time will make this relation become more apparent for me. Edited July 28, 2010 by xabir2005

[3bob]

"working out at gym, having a healthy diet is more important than self-realization". by Xabir

 

How self-revealing of you...

 

Om

[xabir2005]

Isn't it kinda obvious actually? If a guru tells you that self-realization makes your body healthy, he is bullshitting and I will stay far far away from him. That's like saying "attain self-realization and you'll earn a billion bucks".

[3bob]

It's pretty obvious to others when we try to piss backward.

[Seth Ananda]

Isn't it kinda obvious actually? If a guru tells you that self-realization makes your body healthy, he is bullshitting and I will stay far far away from him. That's like saying "attain self-realization and you'll earn a billion bucks".

Thanks for your lengthy and enjoyable posts Xabir, and good luck with the Army.

My only Observation to add is that Recognising the Non personal reality we are Is good for the body. I wont give us Ripped ab's or better cardio, but When you are stable the Self, all the experiences that come and go, that would normally cause us much stress and anxiety, just come and go... Objects rise, objects leave, without the stress.

And the body slowly, by itself, starts to unwind all the things it has been holding on too and slowly [without help] enters a much deeper state of relaxation.

 

Seth

[xabir2005]

Thanks for your lengthy and enjoyable posts Xabir, and good luck with the Army.

My only Observation to add is that Recognising the Non personal reality we are Is good for the body. I wont give us Ripped ab's or better cardio, but When you are stable the Self, all the experiences that come and go, that would normally cause us much stress and anxiety, just come and go... Objects rise, objects leave, without the stress.

And the body slowly, by itself, starts to unwind all the things it has been holding on too and slowly [without help] enters a much deeper state of relaxation.

 

Seth

Hi, thanks for sharing... true to some extent, though the body still can get into bad shape/bad health/sickness if you don't take proactive steps to take care of it.

[xabir2005]

Not sure xabir-san, could have been seeing as i am familiar with the article. My memory fails me

 

I save my posts in a separate diary and review them later on to see how my understanding has changed; sometimes i face-palm other times i marvel at my views.

 

There are many great posts on this forum and many great minds, i like it here : )

Hahaha.. When I look at my own posts especially like 5-6 years back, I also face-palm. Thusness too probably face-palm many times when I knew him many years ago.

 

Anyway I just found a perfect solution to save the posts. There is a small link at the bottom of each thread to 'Download' the entire thread in TTB... I just realized this, don't know if it has been there all along or it was a new feature. It works great.

Edited August 3, 2010 by xabir2005

[Owledge]

The other day, just by coinicidence I mentioned Ramana Maharshi to my friend, as we were eating pizza, and was just explaining to him different paths possible, and just as I mentioned his name out loud I got this full body energetic zing, as if Ramana just glanced over to me. Anyway, interesting coincidence.

Is it coincidence getting a boner when thinking of a hot girl?

 

Information can be a very dangerous thing, especially when it comes differently from many sources.

Everything can be dangerous or helpful.

I prefer different information from many sources, because then I can compare and find the truth or whatever you want to call it. Only having one view on a matter is like trying to judge distances with one blind eye. (having to rely on past experiences and patterns)

 

"working out at gym, having a healthy diet is more important than self-realization". by Xabir

 

How self-revealing of you...

 

Om

This is what even some great philosophers do. They state their very personal experiences as true/valid and that then becomes their philosophy. (In some cases of use of the word "philosophy", it is little more than opinion in a fancy dress.)

Edited August 3, 2010 by Hardyg

[Birch]

"This is what even some great philosophers do. They state their very personal experiences as true/valid and that then becomes their philosophy. (In some cases of use of the word "philosophy", it is little more than opinion in a fancy dress.)"

 

- THIS!

 

In addition, "what you are" is something incredible, amazing even. But I digress.

[Marblehead]

But I digress.

 

 

Go ahead. Undress. We won't mind.

 

Ooops.

 

My mistake.

 

Sorry.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

"Go ahead. Undress. We won't mind.

 

Ooops.

 

My mistake.

 

Sorry.

 

Peace & Love!"

 

Hello Mr MH!

 

What do you mean by "undress" ? Take my mask off, myself off, my clothes off, my ego off, my persona off? I'm giving you some excellent hints (I reckon) and I'm struggling to figure what you mean really. Could you explain?

 

Thank you!

[Marblehead]

 

Hello Mr MH!

 

What do you mean by "undress" ? Take my mask off, myself off, my clothes off, my ego off, my persona off? I'm giving you some excellent hints (I reckon) and I'm struggling to figure what you mean really. Could you explain?

 

Thank you!

 

Hehehe.

 

No, I cannot explain. I was just feeling spunky.

 

I apologize for interrupting the discussion. (Not really.)

 

Peace & Love!