Sounds like a Taoist/Buddhist cross...

[Vajrahridaya]

Buddhism and Science. (a number of interesting clips here from recognised PhDs and Professors).

 

University of Michigan lecture on Buddhism and Science, Autumn 08 (53 mins):

 

Alan Wallace PhD on Science, Buddhism, Skepticism and Meditation - part 1 (10 mins):

 

part 2 (8 mins):

 

The Conscious Universe: Where Buddhism and Physics Converge (11 mins):

 

Mindfulness in Clinical Psychology by Mark Williams (31 mins): http://www.voicesfromoxford.com/B-S-Williams.html

 

 

Enjoy! Keep what you think is relevant, ponder over some of the other points, and discard what you think is out of context.

 

Oooo, gona have to save this for later!

[Vajrahridaya]

Wait a cottin' pickin' minute. I never said that. Remember that I speak of reversion (return) and cycles.

 

What I did say is that we cannot look into the past beyond this most recent Big Bang.

 

Peace & Love!

 

You are right... sorry about that. I do suggest that you can see past the last singularity through meditative experience. You can do this by delving deep into your own unconscious and making it conscious through illuminating the personal mind stream that may or may not have gotten locked into the last singularity of this dimension. For me consciousness transcends brain, while for you it does not.

 

So, we will always butt heads here.

[Marblehead]

 

So, we will always butt heads here.

 

Yep. And I will leave it at that. Time to make supper.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

You are right... sorry about that. I do suggest that you can see past the last singularity through meditative experience. You can do this by delving deep into your own unconscious and making it conscious through illuminating the personal mind stream that may or may not have gotten locked into the last singularity of this dimension. For me consciousness transcends brain, while for you it does not.

 

So, we will always butt heads here.

 

So you fabricate a conclusion about the nature of the universe, then meditate to prove the fabrication. Very interesting!

 

 

ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

They are a product of our conscious minds, just unconscious of it. Our conscious minds as in all sentient beings manifesting through the elements. Uh, never mind... so complicated. Read some Buddhist cosmology, it supports my direct meditative experiences. You probably won't believe a word of any of it anyway. Yes, I'm assuming based upon your previous comments.

 

Plus, once again, maybe this time it will sink in. I do not negate the big bang, I just see it as more complicated with the inclusion of previous universes and multiple universes of differing life spans.

Hmmm, any chance your direct meditative experiences might have been influenced unconsciously by all your Buddhist readings and conversation? That they may be projections of your unconscious mind? Tell me why or why not. How can you be sure your meditative wanderings reflect an independent reality? The fact that you come back and say they match proves nothing. And I think there's a tendency for you to re-interpret your experiences at age 10 and 14 (yes, we have heard many times about them) in light of your late Buddhist conversion.

 

And also, since you're always assuming things about the person you're debating, will you at least stop telling people they are "projecting" onto you. You do it all the time!

[Vajrahridaya]

So you fabricate a conclusion about the nature of the universe, then meditate to prove the fabrication. Very interesting!

 

 

ralis

 

ralis, ralis, ralis... For the sake of the people you are wrongly influencing through your statements.

 

Reverse the order of your assumptions and you will come closer to the truth. On top of that, my meditative findings are supported by spiritual texts. Believe it or not... !!

[Vajrahridaya]

Hmmm, any chance your direct meditative experiences might have been influenced unconsciously by all your Buddhist readings and conversation? That they may be projections of your unconscious mind? Tell me why or why not. How can you be sure your meditative wanderings reflect an independent reality? The fact that you come back and say they match proves nothing. And I think there's a tendency for you to re-interpret your experiences at age 10 and 14 (yes, we have heard many times about them) in light of your late Buddhist conversion.

 

And also, since you're always assuming things about the person you're debating, will you at least stop telling people they are "projecting" onto you. You do it all the time!

 

Talking to you is like forcing a rock through a key hole.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Talking to you is like forcing a rock through a key hole.

I think the same thing about you!! You are quite dense about your own blind spots, Young Master! remember when I told you Norbu told me to be a burr in your soft Tibetan saddle? See you in your meditations! I am you salvation, Young Master! light a candle in front of my picture on your altar,and I shall do the same!!

[Vajrahridaya]

I think the same thing about you!! You are quite dense about your own blind spots, Young Master! remember when I told you Norbu told me to be a burr in your soft Tibetan saddle? See you in your meditations! I am you salvation, Young Master! light a candle in front of my picture on your altar,and I shall do the same!!

 

You arent even connected to his transmission... move on!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Oh, such lovingkindness! Oh!Oh! I'm going become a follower just because you told me with such compassion, "move on!" I have found my mission in life! To steer your out of your delusion of knowingness!! (hey, I thought you had me on ignore...it's nice to know you can't live without me!)

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh, such lovingkindness! Oh!Oh! I'm going become a follower just because you told me with such compassion, "move on!" I have found my mission in life! To steer your out of your delusion of knowingness!! (hey, I thought you had me on ignore...it's nice to know you can't live without me!)

 

I know! You too right? HAHA!! It's like your picture, the paradox of light and darkness. I'm light and you're darkness. :lol: :lol:

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I know! You too right? HAHA!! It's like your picture, the paradox of light and darkness. I'm light and you're darkness. :lol: :lol:

Thaaaattss rightttt!!! You are light, and I am dark!!! You are Bugs, and I am Daffy!!! I can't wait to plant a kiss on your smacker and dash off!!! Woop!! woop!!! Woop!!!

[Vajrahridaya]

I say to you my Lord of mystery!

 

I was in a casket tightly closed, filled with the cold darkness.

 

I was walking around in this contracted contraption,

I conceived of as a life,

Bumping into walls made of my own mind's projections,

receiving painful injuries with each motion of thought,

finding support and illogical feedback,

from those who shared the same insidious dark dream.

 

Cursing you my Lord with my free will,

for putting me here with no light to guide me.

 

My eyes wild with outwardly blaming fear,

staring into the perceived nothingness that is a misunderstood life.

 

My awareness externalized,

to the point where not even a drop of insight would align with my mind.

 

 

Finally, filled with anguish,

I dropped to the floor and closed my eyes,

half heartedly hoping with doubt plaguing my mind,

I begged for help with a will broken and hurt.

 

I opened my eyes, and as quietly expected, nothing did change.

 

All I saw was more suffering to experience,

more petty excuses to make in order to remain,

in this foolish bewilderment of unloving pleasure to pain,

with nothing unbreakable, just more dust and disdain.

 

 

So with re-invigorated intensity,

to realize something new,

I then again shut my eyes with utter sincerity,

and I pleaded with you,

My Lord of mystery to help me out of this insanity we call misery!

 

Deep within...my gaze wept for a spark of a something,

a fullness for this emptiness that I called myself.

 

Deep within,

I traveled past memories of pain's and ephemeral dust-like joy's,

which led only to more pain,

my being sung a song of a heart wrenching for it's long lost love.

 

Knowing it was seeking for the truth only long forgotten...

that which without, life turns horrid and rotten!

With pits as hearts spit out on the streets of society cold and stark.

 

 

I cried, I cried, and I cried with no shame,

and no desire to be noticed by a somebody...and In these tears,

I let go of everything I thought of as important,

I let go of any thought that thought itself was even important.

 

In these tears,

I drowned myself, I drowned all sense of me!

 

After a time of unperceived passing,

having lost all sense of worldly reference,

my eyes opened from within...and from deep within,

I could see the door to my enclosure,

made of whimsical wishes and accidental desires was cracked open!

There before my vision was light, LIGHT!

Pouring through a seemingly boundless darkness,

a small point of freedom glared clarity and shone brilliantly!

It was tiny,

yet it's warmth at it's sights touch,

made me happy,

to receive this taste of something beyond this clutch?

What is known.

 

My eyes were magnetically drawn to it,

forcing my mind to move my body

towards this seemingly impossible

dream....of a blessing!

 

I pushed on the door of my hearts perception,

as the hinges rustily scraped open,

to this light I humbly bowed,

and wordlessly asked for encouragement,

and to this light I released anxiety never spoken,

from this illumination I receive nourishment,

and teachings pour into my mind,

like a rain storm of brilliant golden tokens,

for this luminosity grants me,

the knowledge that I need in order to live a life open,

not to the petty arrogant,

clenched fisted attitude's of the angry masses,

but OPEN!

To the experience of unconditional joy ever increasing,

as my understanding is ever deepening.

 

 

With this lit love held in the cup of my heart as reference,

my journey to liberation from suffering continues...

and the process of this lights unfoldment,

from inner crevice to outer sky steadily brightens,

as each day and each shade of color is made reflective of this,

even the darkness which was made of cold contractedness,

is now nothing but a black light,

full of hidden illumination and harmless,

and now if I let it, it offers no hurt or petty plight to shade insight...

this that is bright and beautiful and not made by me

as I realize that it could never be truly obliterated you see...

It is the infinity!

 

So hidden was this that was always within,

so hidden under the rubble of my own insanity,

I habitually considered normality,

Now bright and unbidden are the waves of Love's elixir that pulsates throughout my body,

and when my mind turns from habit to open spontaneity?

in you... Oh Lord of all Mysteries...

I FLY!!

[3bob]

Hi 3Bob,

 

Have you noticed how active your thread has been?

 

Ain't you proud of us?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Well there is no way I can keep up with the tit for tat, hopefully you guys are having some fun?

Edited August 4, 2010 by 3bob

[Encephalon]

I'd describe it as hopeless, but not serious.

[Marblehead]

So you fabricate a conclusion about the nature of the universe, then meditate to prove the fabrication. Very interesting!

 

 

ralis

 

 

Hehehe. I have already said that but I used a lot of tact so he may will have missed it.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Well there is no way I can keep up with the tit for tat, hopefully you guys are having some fun?

 

Yes, I did enjoy myself yesterday.

 

Oh, I grant you, argueing about something that cannot be proved is very un-Taoist but it is still fun sometimes.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I'd describe it as hopeless, but not serious.

 

 

Hehehe. Yeah, it is hopeless. Noone wins no matter how many times we have these types of discussions. But it is something to do when there is nothing serious to talk about.

 

Peace & Love!

[Pero]

Well, I find Vajra's take that meditation trumps science for everything, including negating the Big Bang, yet it is entirely dependent on the brain, a physical object. If non-material consciousness is so all-powerful, it is still tied to a brain, which is governed by the laws of science. It is entirely possible that mind can be a non-local phenomenon, and that a brain is not needed for consciousness or sentience. thus, a plant may not possess a brain, but they may indeed possess a non-local mind. We simply do not know. They may be sentient, but we cannot say they are not.

 

I'm sorry but it's not really clear to me what you're trying to say here.

[ralis]

I have been thinking about why the whole Buddhist religious trip bothers me. Primarily, because I am asked to give up self referencing as a way to enlightenment. The Buddha may be the ultimate propagandist.

 

 

ralis

[3bob]

Quan Yin

 

 

[Encephalon]

I have been thinking about why the whole Buddhist religious trip bothers me. Primarily, because I am asked to give up self referencing as a way to enlightenment. The Buddha may be the ultimate propagandist.

 

 

ralis

 

Greetings -

We are in accord on a number of issues that really matter, and Buddhist metaphysics is not a subject that matters to me, nor did it matter much to the Buddha. I have read your counter-arguments and I sympathize with your sentiments, although I would encourage you to at least take a peek at the agnostic Buddhist movement and some of the writer/scholar/practitioners who inform it. Stephen Batchelor started a firestorm with "Buddhism Without Beliefs," sort of primer on agnostic Buddhism that really explicates early Buddhism minus the trappings that accreted centuries later. His latest, "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist" I haven't read yet, and it doesn't excite me as much, simply because I feel that agnosticism is the most cognitively hygienic.

 

"Money Sex War Karma" by David Loy is right up your alley, and although he's an ordained zen priest, his work is deeply steeped in the western humanistic tradition and resonates very well with Buddhist psychology, modern psychology, and the postmodern realization.

 

I share your frustration but there is a deeply rational side to Buddhist psychology that possesses a powerful diagnostic. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. There are many of us "Buddhists" who don't even recognize it as a religion, more as a philosophy of mind.

 

All the best.

[Marblehead]

... more as a philosophy of mind.

 

All the best.

 

 

And that is how it should be, in my very biased opinion.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

I have been thinking about why the whole Buddhist religious trip bothers me. Primarily, because I am asked to give up self referencing as a way to enlightenment. The Buddha may be the ultimate propagandist.

 

ralis

 

Buddhism is a vehicle and it more than says so of it's Way through multiple references!!

 

Really no need for all or many of of these car crashes...

Edited August 6, 2010 by 3bob

[Vajrahridaya]

I have been thinking about why the whole Buddhist religious trip bothers me. Primarily, because I am asked to give up self referencing as a way to enlightenment. The Buddha may be the ultimate propagandist.

 

 

ralis

 

Your not asked to give up self referencing. Just self and absorption experiences from oneself as ultimate proof of an ultimate Self of all. Totally different.