whistle blowing on breathing in the genitals

[Ya Mu]

...

Michael,

It seems cynical to me to suggest that the 3 week intensive on breathing Frantzis is teaching is no more than a contrived and kindergarten way of learning to bring energy into the body. There has to be more to it than that.

You misunderstand my intention of the post. I am not attacking the 3 week intensive on breathing.I am sure it was quite fun and breathing is a very good thing. Don't understand why you think that I am attacking this. I have many times said that I like Kumar and have indeed enjoyed interaction with him. He is a great Martial Artist.

 

What my whole point is IMO and experience it is a FACT that any particular visualization method is beginner method compared to actually doing, i.e., a direct manner of doing versus an indirect. Visualization methods of ANY kind are finite and limited compared to direct. So my objection is to the description of breathing that MOST seem to be fixated on. Of course it is a visualization method because folks are visualizing the breath as qi when in fact breath contains qi but is not qi itself. I have no objection to actually breathing air and in fact do it myself all the time. I for one would have a vast problem remaining on the earth if I didn't breathe. But when it comes to energy, I just don't understand the fixation with breathing into organs or parts of the body. If one utilizes energy directly it is far more powerful. AND if one practices methods which are balanced there is generally no need to do this. Why force when it can BE?

[三江源]

Hi YaMu. I cant do visualisation, I am very kinaesthetic so I feel things. I dont do much thinking, either..

 

 

Why is it called 'breathing'.. because its a circuit.. it's in and out, it's a long pulsation of exchange between what's out there and what is in here, and a refreshment of inner with outer.

 

What is the issue with calling it 'breathing'? What would be preferable? I'm not attached to it being called breathing, but it feels accurate to me.

 

Do we really only breathe with our lungs? Dont Yogi's breathe through their ears? ARent there wider possibilities of 'breathing' than the lung/air one? I feel there are.

 

breathing into organs or parts of the body creates an intimate relationship with those places, promotes one sense of the nature character or quality of that location, it is part of becoming internally known to oneself.

 

One could sense an area, instead, and intend for cleansing or replenishment of that area.. but breathing seems natural, in the way of the old 'hosepipe' analogy for chi.. drawing in, pouring out, unblocking on the way..

[VCraigP]

I would love to hear what you have to say in reply to this Pietro. Indeed, what exactly do you mean when you speak of breathing with a particular area of the body?

 

Michael,

It seems cynical to me to suggest that the 3 week intensive on breathing Frantzis is teaching is no more than a contrived and kindergarten way of learning to bring energy into the body. There has to be more to it than that.

 

Creation

 

If I may clarify what I read from Michaels post I really don't think he is criticizing BKF's teaching here. What he is doing is criticizing imprecise language and teaching in general which conflates breathing with moving Qi or sending Qi.

 

Now to address Pietro's discussion.

I think one problem is a tactful lack of specificity on Pietro's part. I believe BKF and Pietro are referring to SPECIFIC practices taught by M.Chia which Pietro had studied in the past - Testicle or Ovarian breathing and/or Scrotal compression. These are techniques taught as part of Sexual Kung Fu in the Healing Tao system.

I believe Pietro to be relaying this message from Bruce specifically about this system which was quite prevalent among early contributors to this board most of whom had some exposure to the Healing tao system.

 

I fully agree with Ya Mu (Michael) and others about the "natural" approach.

 

A basic practice in the style of my primary teacher can be summed up as follows;

Breath in and Feel the Qi like sunlight penetrating every pore of your body. Breath out allowing the Qi to condense in your Dantien.

 

Craig

[Ya Mu]

Hi YaMu. I cant do visualisation, I am very kinaesthetic so I feel things. I dont do much thinking, either..

...

SEEING or feeling as it happens is GOOD and in no way interferes with the process.

[Creation]

Hi Michael.

 

 

Has anyone ever told you that you can come across as cynical and disparaging? Maybe I'm just hypersensitive. Anyway, I'm glad that wasn't the case here.

 

It seemed to me that you were suggesting that any idea of breathing into a particular part of the body was a visualization method for bringing in energy. I know this type of visualization is common, and I have never liked it either, but I also feel like there are so many more wonderful things possibilities inherent in the breath. Like this wonderful description, for example:

 

Do we really only breathe with our lungs? Dont Yogi's breathe through their ears? ARent there wider possibilities of 'breathing' than the lung/air one? I feel there are.

 

breathing into organs or parts of the body creates an intimate relationship with those places, promotes one sense of the nature character or quality of that location, it is part of becoming internally known to oneself.

 

Anyway, I missed seeing you this weekend. Next time maybe?

[VCraigP]

 

What my whole point is IMO and experience it is a FACT that any particular visualization method is beginner method compared to actually doing, i.e., a direct manner of doing versus an indirect. Visualization methods of ANY kind are finite and limited compared to direct.

 

Can I ask for a clarification re the above?

It seems to me that visualization in some form is always a component of qigong. Once again we may be running up against the problem of the same word having different layers of meaning to different practitioners.

You have previously on several occasions expressed a dislike (maybe not the right word) for visualization. What I think you mean is that visualization is wrong if it is only a substitute for actually moving qi or fully interacting with a process.

My thinking and the way my teacher expresses it is that visualization belongs to the Shen layer. So qigong is composed of three essential layers. Proper physical alignment (representing jing) proper breathing (representing qi) and visualization (representing shen). All three components must be there in order to have qigong. The important distinction is made by my teacher when asked about the MCO practice the response is basically "if there is no water in the reservoir there is nothing to move in the channels" So visualization in this case would be fruitless especially if done in abcense of the other layers.

 

To sum up your objection to "visualization methods" is that they are not connected to the other essential layers and many students remain in a head space and fail to connect with Qi and even their bodies (jing) properly.

 

Comment?

 

Craig

[三江源]

is essential to critical discussion

 

e.g.

 

"Breathing in to the big toe,"

 

may actually mean,

 

"When breathing air into the lungs, visualize, or kinesthetically feel, [breath like] [warm tingly] energy coming in to the big toe..."

 

well, yes, but forgive me , the more wordy version is not needed, it's verbiage, the first version is shorthand that we should understand if we're not hot from the storks beak.

[Creation]

is essential to critical discussion

 

e.g.

 

"Breathing in to the big toe,"

 

may actually mean,

 

"When breathing air into the lungs, visualize, or kinesthetically feel, [breath like] [warm tingly] energy coming in to the big toe..."

Right, this is precisely why I requested what I did from Pietro. I know he will not spurn my scholarly desire for precision .

[宁]

 

LITTLE1:

Why the not so subtle jab ...

@YaMu

Only the context made it look like a jab. I was aware of that, but I still had to ask. I expected that someone who works alot with movement practice to look alot limber. It was just a thought, this time you mis-interpreted it.

Besides, if I wanted to jab at someone, I wouldn't mind calling it what it is myself. Being practically a nobody here, I don't have an image to defend

I'm not used to the thought of good teachers aging normally. It's against my experience.

 

@Pietro

Thanks for the clarification, I'm still chewing on what your teacher said.

It still doesn't make sense. I'll think about it.

[DarthBane]

Come on guys, time to take a chill pill.

Maybe you guys arent really listening to each other? You cant attach one meaning to one word and one word only. Try undrstanding.

 

As a friend of mine once liked to say with words:

There are many decaffinated brands that taste exactly the same as the real thing.

[Pietro]

I think one problem is a tactful lack of specificity on Pietro's part. I believe BKF and Pietro are referring to SPECIFIC practices taught by M.Chia which Pietro had studied in the past - Testicle or Ovarian breathing and/or Scrotal compression. These are techniques taught as part of Sexual Kung Fu in the Healing Tao system.

I believe Pietro to be relaying this message from Bruce specifically about this system which was quite prevalent among early contributors to this board most of whom had some exposure to the Healing tao system.

 

 

Surely Testicle/Ovarian breathing and Scrotal compression would be part of the practices criticized. And when I was speaking about practices that were coming from the Taiwan booklet I was in fact thinking about them. But Bruce critic was general and I refer it as I heard it. As such it would also cover Lin's anal breathing, I suppose.

[Pietro]

Right, this is precisely why I requested what I did from Pietro. I know he will not spurn my scholarly desire for precision .

that's wonderful!

I don't even need to reply anymore ;-)

 

 

[Ya Mu]

Can I ask for a clarification re the above?

It seems to me that visualization in some form is always a component of qigong. Once again we may be running up against the problem of the same word having different layers of meaning to different practitioners.

You have previously on several occasions expressed a dislike (maybe not the right word) for visualization. What I think you mean is that visualization is wrong if it is only a substitute for actually moving qi or fully interacting with a process.

My thinking and the way my teacher expresses it is that visualization belongs to the Shen layer. So qigong is composed of three essential layers. Proper physical alignment (representing jing) proper breathing (representing qi) and visualization (representing shen). All three components must be there in order to have qigong. The important distinction is made by my teacher when asked about the MCO practice the response is basically "if there is no water in the reservoir there is nothing to move in the channels" So visualization in this case would be fruitless especially if done in abcense of the other layers.

 

To sum up your objection to "visualization methods" is that they are not connected to the other essential layers and many students remain in a head space and fail to connect with Qi and even their bodies (jing) properly.

 

Comment?

 

Craig

You make very good points about this and indeed I REALLY like the description of why/when of not doing the MCO by your teacher.

 

I know sometimes these things boil down to semantics and in the end we are all referring to the same thing.

 

I will attempt clarification of what I mean and have experienced but I do know that many will take exception to this and Pietro will probably object to my use of the word quantum.

 

I teach and was taught from the standpoint of infinite high vibration levels of energy. In my system, we differentiate Visualization and INTENT. Our way of looking at this is that Visualization itself is not a direct method as it involves the linear process of visualizing and utilizes the brain/mind in doing so. Of course the brain has finite measurable wave lengths. We say this process imposes a finite limitation of the amplitude and intensity of the energy because it adds a finite variable, the mind/brain itself. Instead we look at INTENT as a direct manipulation of energy by one's Higher Level Self (not attached to mind and brain) and a quantum level event with a potential for unlimited amplitude and intensity where amplitude could be said to be analogous to Voltage and Intensity could be said analogous to the Current. Both are shaped by INTENT itself. An example is when we project qi for healing. We set INTENT first so as to manifest a certain outcome. Then we DO - not visualize. When applied to cultivation the outcome can be instantaneous, much more powerful, and not limited or misdirected by mind.

 

And indeed I was objecting to the use of the word breathingwhich is so popular by many; it's ties to the visualization process as well as why this is described as "breathing" instead of as "pulling in energy".

[Ya Mu]

@YaMu

Only the context made it look like a jab. I was aware of that, but I still had to ask. I expected that someone who works alot with movement practice to look alot limber. It was just a thought, this time you mis-interpreted it.

Besides, if I wanted to jab at someone, I wouldn't mind calling it what it is myself. Being practically a nobody here, I don't have an image to defend

I'm not used to the thought of good teachers aging normally. It's against my experience.

...

OK. Apologize for the mis-interpretation.

Aging is usually much more dependent on genetics than anything else. I am amazed at the folks in their 80's to 90's who continue to eat pork sausage, smoke cigarettes, and continue to work. And these folks practice nothing of the cultivation that we refer to.

[Ya Mu]

@YaMu

Only the context made it look like a jab. I was aware of that, but I still had to ask. I expected that someone who works alot with movement practice to look alot limber. It was just a thought, this time you mis-interpreted it.

Besides, if I wanted to jab at someone, I wouldn't mind calling it what it is myself. Being practically a nobody here, I don't have an image to defend

...

I think you have a lot of good things to say and have the experience to share with others. Why not consider teaching some of these things to others? There is no better way to solidify the validity of what you know than to teach it to others and help them through the process.

[宁]

I think you have a lot of good things to say and have the experience to share with others. Why not consider teaching some of these things to others? There is no better way to solidify the validity of what you know than to teach it to others and help them through the process.

 

That's a nice thing to say.

I do think about it.

At this moment, I need little to no validation.

Helping others... takes more than my own will, I'm sure you know that.

[Creation]

Pietro,

 

I have no idea what you mean by "I don't even need to reply anymore". Actually, I get this impression about this whole thread, like everybody is misinterpreting everybody else, and then responding in a way that is easily misinterpretable.

 

I really would like to hear anything you would be willing to share in response to my question to you:

 

What exactly do you mean when you speak of breathing with a particular area of the body? When you breathe with your big toe, what are you doing? What things are happening on the physical and energetic level when you do this, and how is it related to intending energy to go to that particular area (which is only one half of the cycle anyway)? How about when you breathe with your dan tien?

 

Thanks,

Tyler

Edited July 27, 2010 by Creation

[Ya Mu]

That's a nice thing to say.

I do think about it.

At this moment, I need little to no validation.

Helping others... takes more than my own will, I'm sure you know that.

Did not mean to imply you needed validation. What I mean is that it solidifies your own practices to teach them to others. When we teach others it really drives everything home. I have heard it said that we can't truly understand something until we try to teach it to someone else. Don't know if that is fully true but I do know it helps to bring about the greatest understanding.

[宁]

I got you the first time, and appreciate your advice. I'm still looking for the big picture, it's almost too hard to be dragged into exploring detail at this moment. The detail is easy to explain once you see the bigger picture. For the moment, I'm still hunting.

[Ya Mu]

Hi Michael.

...

Anyway, I missed seeing you this weekend. Next time maybe?

Not only I but also several of your friends missed seeing you there.

The new Gift of the Tao 2 movements proved to be astonishing, I do believe ALL of us were amazed at what we experienced.

[Pietro]

________________________

| good boys don't speak with the mouth full |

|_______________________|

|

|

|

psst: Tyler, speak to you later

[Creation]

________________________

| good boys don't speak with the mouth full |

|_______________________|

|

|

|

psst: Tyler, speak to you later

 

:lol:

 

This thread has made me very wary of attaching layers of meaning to posts here. But your latest riddle seems clear enough.

 

When you have swallowed your food, then hopefully you will help clear up some of this confusion about "What is breathing beyond the obvious pumping of air in and out of the lungs."

Edited July 27, 2010 by Creation

[宁]

Usually folks limit breathing to nose and mouth alone.

Why don't they have issues.

Why would someone who extends his breathing to other parts of the body encounter any problems.

[Sloppy Zhang]

This thread has made me very wary of attaching layers of meaning to posts here.

 

All I see are the words "genitals" "blow" "mouth full" and "swallow".........

 

 

That said, I got very confused after the first couple of posts..... it was like some posts were deleted, 'cause I couldn't tell why people were saying what they were saying or what they were responding to!

[idquest]

Is there any difference between reversed breathing and testicles breating?

 

With the reversed breathing testicles lift up when hui-yin cavity is up. You have to lift hui-yin cavity to do proper reversed breathing. And when hui-yin is up, the testicles will be up as well. I understand this is why some people call it testicles breathing.

 

Am I wrong?