Alan Watts article

[turbo]

http://deoxy.org/w_psyrel.htm

 

Interesting article on the states of realization available through proper use of psychedelics, Zen/Yoga meditation. True American v Judeo/Christian philosophy and why these mindsets are in fundamental opposition on the issue. Its from 1968 so, it may feel a tad dated, but all of his points are still relevant.

 

Happy Easter!

[Cameron]

Watt's was a giant and apparently got the ball rolling for alot of well known Tao people.

Edited April 16, 2006 by Cameron

[turbo]

[Watts] was a giant and apparently got the ball rolling for alot of well known Tao people.

 

 

Yeah, he has written number of texts and was a serious practitioner of Zen and an ordained Episcopal priest/minister. Its really a great article, and you can tell that Watts has experienced the effects of regular meditation over many years, as well as intense episodes with psychedelic "drugs".

 

The question about psychedelics is whether you can sustain a high level of spiritual accomplishment with them...without having to resort to taking more at regular intervals. That and it seems like foreign substances would work to pollute, not purify the nervous system. Of course they are generally illegal (see the UDV church who by ruling of the Supreme Court is now legally allowed to import and use DMT in its religious ceremonies), and meditation/qigong/yoga/etc are legal and free.

 

He metions in the article the Quaker doctrine of the Inner Light. This is an interesting topic and a new discovery for me...time to do some more research. Here is a quote from what I've found so far "The Inner Light, the true Seed. is no foreign substance added to an undivine human life. It is neither human nor Divine. It is the actual inner self formed by the union of a Divine and a human element in a single undivided life." Sounds like the Quakers were (and still are??) into some powerful spiritual cultivation.

 

Cheers

[Cameron]

My experience with them is they are a doorway but once you open the door you have to get on a spiritual path to go farther. They give you a glimpse, but the next day that glimpse is gone and you are just left with a WTF? feeling.

 

Also, I suspect long term use leads to health problems.

 

My highest experience with them were almost identical to my mind opening through Zen but the zen experience has no negatives just positive while phychadelics have both(IMO).

 

Probably for alot of people taking a hit of acid or some shroom tea is easier than doing zazen for years or whatever. But the zazen for years(or perhaps other practices) lead to longer lasting personality transformations and mind body transfomration.

 

IMO and in my limited experience and all..

Edited April 16, 2006 by Cameron

[cloud recluse]

My experience with them is they are a doorway but once you open the door you have to get on a spiritual path to go farther. They give you a glimpse, but the next day that glimpse is gone and you are just left with a WTF? feeling.

 

Also, I suspect long term use leads to health problems.

 

My highest experience with them were almost identical to my mind opening through Zen but the zen experience has no negatives just positive while phychadelics have both(IMO).

 

Probably for alot of people taking a hit of acid or some shroom tea is easier than doing zazen for years or whatever. But the zazen for years(or perhaps other practices) lead to longer lasting personality transformations and mind body transfomration.

 

IMO and in my limited experience and all..

I have to agree.The drugs are definetely "easier",but then they wear off & your conditioning kicks back in.This is not to say that they cant have a specific theraepeutic effect on a particular individual,but the long haul really requires the Yoga's to unwind your bodymind.In my limited use ,I found that the psychedelic afterglow made me complacent with an increased capacity for self decption. While Im skeptical about some of the popular horror stories, I no longer touch the stuff. As for Watts himself,my impression was he initially eschewed regular zazen,started succumbing to alcholism & depression,then privately resumed the practice much later in life ( re GENUINE FAKE by Monica Furlong).One gets the quite saddening picture that for all the doors he was crucial in opening for others,he never got the full benefit himself But none of this is an anti-drug rant.For the right person,they can be a lifechanging catalyst & well worth the sideeffects. Regards,Cloud.

[Cameron]

I suppose. I would have a hard time ever really reccomending them to anyone. I think they are dangerous even though I explored them as a teenager and in my early 20's.

 

But quite a few well known people may have never even explored any of this stuff farther had they not had those drug experiences. The last time I tripped, maybe 7 or 8 years ago, I experienced the connection with the universe so profoundly. I was staring up into the stars and felt my mind envelop distant galaxies. The energies I found in space were unimaginably beautiful and such a high vibration. I probably couldn't walk around like that in everyday life.

 

I think spiritual practice, meditation connecting with teachers etc sort of help to connect with "all that" along with grounding you in everyday reality(hopefully).

 

Anyway, I am still just scratching the surface of it all.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Cameron

[cloud recluse]

I suppose. I would have a hard time ever really reccomending them to anyone. I think they are dangerous even though I explored them as a teenager and in my early 20's.

 

Please dont think Im making any casual recommendations,psychedelics are POTENT for anyone,& will be nothing but hellish for some!! Were anyone to actually take me seriously (most of my freinds think Im a buffoon ),I would advocate Practice & no drugs whatsoever! But people are curious & will ask questions,& deserve a lot better answers than the orthodox ones.Ive known hardcore trippers for a coupla decades (& I mean FUCKING hardcore!) with no overt damage,& Ive known apparently stable people plunge into long term psychosis ( some are still there) from a single trip ! They ARE dangerous !!! Having said all that,some of the above mentioned Hardcore are now looking for other options. And I myself,nevera big user at any point,became aware quite early that tripping was creatin a kind of "voyeuristic" approach to Visionary phenomena.Yes it shook up my specific identity,but my basic egocentricity was being subtly reinforced. I suspect my pre-drug meditation practice (I didnt touch drugs till my mid-to-late 20's) made me sensitive to that development quicker than non-sitting users. Regards,Cloud

[Cameron]

I actually tried to meditate several times while tripping. I literally felt compelled to sit down and just watch all the crazy visuals happening. It was interesting but I prefer just having some green tea instead these days

 

ps. And yes if you eat a bag of shrooms and realize an hour in you don't really want to trip and your hanging out with people you barely know and you find annoying..can you say hell?

Edited April 17, 2006 by Cameron

[cloud recluse]

I actually tried to meditate several times while tripping. I literally felt compelled to sit down and just watch all the crazy visuals happening. It was interesting but I prefer just having some green tea instead these days

 

ps. And yes if you eat a bag of shrooms and realize an hour in you don't really want to trip and your hanging out with people you barely know and you find annoying..can you say hell?

Heh heh,you got my sympathy there. How about aggressive redneck towering over your prone form angrily demanding to know what your doing while you have an 8 hour fear trip ...I can say hell Still not sure if that guy actually existed Regards,Cloud

[Cameron]

redneck in Australia?

[cloud recluse]

redneck in Australia?

ok,Ill say "Yobbo" if you like.Didnt know if you Yanks would appreciate the lingo(sorry if that was condescending,perhaps I should give people more credit.). Ever since the Twin Towers,our socioploitical landscape is coming to resemble Americas,& I felt the term "redneck" would convey the the type I was dealing with.Or am I digging myself into a deeper hole by misinterpreting "redneck".Its come into parlance over here,what is the actual stereotype associated with it in America?? Regards,Cloud.

[Ian]

Yep yep yep.

 

Best model I've heard is that psychedelics enhance your mental/spiritual capacity/velocity, but at the expense of bodily energy.

 

Then you have to do all the drudgery of bringing your body up to the vibration of your mind, which you're then even less inclined to do because you know just how easy it would be to have another wild and visionary state instead.

 

Having said that, I think there are degrees. I reckon plant stuff has more genuine teaching in it, (but often its own agenda).

 

I know at least one high level buddhist who tell his students not do do psychedelics, but has a certain respect for ayahuasca as being more genuinely transformative that the other options.

 

Even there, though, I've heard that shamanic training of the better sort shows you the way by doing it lots when you're young and still have kidneys, and encourages you to give it a rest and sort it out for yourself as you get older.

 

Apparently you can meet lots of gnarly old men in the jungle who do amazing stuff when on ayahuasca but revert to being unpleasant old bastards straight after.

 

Having said all the above, in this day and age, brought up as a westerner with an intelligent suspicion of christianity as done at school, how else are most of us going to get an awareness of other dimensions? About half this board started out as space cadets, I'll bet.

 

Not me, of course, mother.

 

P.S. Try a few hours alone in a house in Manchester, convinced that you were, until just moments ago, the only being on the planet who didn't know that you had to choose between being predator or prey, and that now you've worked it out and refused mentally to join them, the predators are coming to get you!

[cloud recluse]

 

Best model I've heard is that psychedelics enhance your mental/spiritual capacity/velocity, but at the expense of bodily energy.

 

Then you have to do all the drudgery of bringing your body up to the vibration of your mind, which you're then even less inclined to do because you know just how easy it would be to have another wild and visionary state instead.

 

Perfect! 'Drudgery', exactly how I felt in the trips afterglow.I had initialy thought tripping would inspire a deeper commitment ( with the hidden hope of not having to face my own resistances), & instead my conditioned patterns of bodily energy reappeared with greater complacency.The thought of any kind of yoga was indeed felt as drudgery.And when the glow wore off alltogether,I just wanted more acid,mdma,whatever.I just wanted to occlude my conditioning,not face it.And nowadays,I definetely DONT have the Kidneys for this stuff Regards,Cloud.

[三江源]

.

Edited April 18, 2015 by 三江源

[hajii]

Funny, beacuse as a teenager, writers like Alan Watts and psychedelics were the things that got me started! I think it's been summed up well, they may open a door, but it takes spiritual practice to really attain that level. Also, they burn up one's energy, so that it takes LONGER to actually attain the state one glimpsed.

Still, they showed me non-ordinary states WERE attainable, It just took me a long time to learn how to get there I think Watts and the other pioneers deserve credit, flawed or no, they were journeying into the unkown, and inspired a lot of us!

[Cameron]

ok,Ill say "Yobbo" if you like.Didnt know if you Yanks would appreciate the lingo(sorry if that was condescending,perhaps I should give people more credit.). Ever since the Twin Towers,our socioploitical landscape is coming to resemble Americas,& I felt the term "redneck" would convey the the type I was dealing with.Or am I digging myself into a deeper hole by misinterpreting "redneck".Its come into parlance over here,what is the actual stereotype associated with it in America?? Regards,Cloud.

 

 

No, my friend, I lived in the south(Georgia) for like 10 years. I know about rednecks. I don't think what you got in Australia is quite the same but I got it

Edited April 17, 2006 by Cameron

[hajii]

Cloud,

I like aussie slang, just don't know much. Limited to chuffed, bonzer, wingeing poms and mickey

[cloud recluse]

No, my friend, I lived in the south(Georgia) for like 10 years. I know about rednecks. I don't think what you got in Australia is quite the same but I got it

OK Just to clarify,I never thought you would be unfamiliar with the term Redneck,just possibly unfamiliar with the term Yobbo.My impression of rednecks is that theyve had a "philosophy" to go with their mentality,lots of stuff about America-the -New -Israel,religous nationalism,the evil threats of ideology- X,whereas the Yobbo,until recent times,had the same blind,bullish agression,but only in the past 10 years or so has started to formulate a more explicit concept of "Aussie culture" to justify it.These sentiments have been bubbling away beneath the surface for a while,but now their becoming disturbingly organised & vocal.So Cam,am I corect in my image of rednecks ,cause if so,the Yobbo is starting to emulate them.

 

Cloud,

I like aussie slang, just don't know much. Limited to chuffed, bonzer, wingeing poms and mickey

Hajii,I do admit we have some pretty choice expressions,though the over-marketing of fair-dinkum-strewth-by-gees-by -jingoes-by-crikey-fair-crack-of-the-whip-sport-throw-another-prawn-on-the-barby-cobber-maaaaate! can get a bit much

[Cameron]

OK Just to clarify,I never thought you would be unfamiliar with the term Redneck,just possibly unfamiliar with the term Yobbo.My impression of rednecks is that theyve had a "philosophy" to go with their mentality,lots of stuff about America-the -New -Israel,religous nationalism,the evil threats of ideology- X,whereas the Yobbo,until recent times,had the same blind,bullish agression,but only in the past 10 years or so has started to formulate a more explicit concept of "Aussie culture" to justify it.These sentiments have been bubbling away beneath the surface for a while,but now their becoming disturbingly organised & vocal.So Cam,am I corect in my image of rednecks ,cause if so,the Yobbo is starting to emulate them.

Hajii,I do admit we have some pretty choice expressions,though the over-marketing of fair-dinkum-strewth-by-gees-by -jingoes-by-crikey-fair-crack-of-the-whip-sport-throw-another-prawn-on-the-barby-cobber-maaaaate! can get a bit much

 

 

Not sure. I havent done any extensive research into high redneck culture

 

I suppose a lack of manners might be one defining trait. Along with love of Nascar racing

[cloud recluse]

Funny, beacuse as a teenager, writers like Alan Watts and psychedelics were the things that got me started! I think it's been summed up well, they may open a door, but it takes spiritual practice to really attain that level. Also, they burn up one's energy, so that it takes LONGER to actually attain the state one glimpsed.

Still, they showed me non-ordinary states WERE attainable, It just took me a long time to learn how to get there I think Watts and the other pioneers deserve credit, flawed or no, they were journeying into the unkown, and inspired a lot of us!

I concur,youve summed up both drugs & Watts just fine.Im actually pretty much in awe of Watts & his life,especially considering the personal history & social environment he had to deal with.I just think it was a genuine tragedy that he couldnt deal with the selfhate that drove his alchoholism.Hed got as far as being able to admit it, "I dont like myself when Im sober",but couldnt address it.Everyone demanded that he be this flawless guru,& supporting his family came to depend on that role,He must have been very isolated Its quite saddening,the way we can enthusiastically dehumanise someone by putting them on a pedestal.Still,he was a crucial catalyst,a remarkable trailblazer,and I cant say the same for myself Regards,Cloud.

 

Not sure. I havent done any extensive research into high redneck culture

 

I think I should apologise for my pedantic obsessions here Cam I certainly seem to have got off topic

 

 

Has anyone else had a dream enlightenment? I wonder how common it might be?

 

I did have a dream enlightenment about 5 years ago,but unlike you,I wasnt really able to bring it into the waking state & its bugged me ever since So Ill just stew in my own envy for a while longer Regards,Cloud.

[Cameron]

Oh. I thought you were going to enlighten me somehow by showing how I make false distinctions between Australian rednecks and American rednecks when there is only really one primordial redneck that fills the universe(Redneck yuan shen).

 

So this is not what you were going for then?

Edited April 19, 2006 by Cameron

[cloud recluse]

.... there is only really one primordial redneck that fills the universe(Redneck yuan shen).

 

OH MY GOD!!!! what a nightmare vision !!! Thanks for destroying my chances of a sound sleep tonight I think Im beginning to glimpse the dark side of your nature Regards,Cloud

[Cameron]

Better you make peace with your own inner redneck rather than try to resist. You will only make it more powerful. Sweet dreams.

 

*evil Jeff Foxworthy laugh*

[cloud recluse]

Emerging from a troubled sleep,the Cloud Recluse surveys his shattered psychic landscape,fearfully observing the demented bigots striding across it,and starts to wonder if hes bitten off more than he can chew.Obviously lacking the maturity to deal with his own darkness,he tries to recall the gentle,laughing face of Alan Watts to block out the images of leering yobbos chanting "One of us,one of us".Battle ye not with Dragons,lest on of them bites you on the arse,and gaze not into the Abyss,lest you fall into a trailerpark.So speaketh the Cloud Recluse

[cloud recluse]

Something to add here

"...the use of psychedelic sacraments does not necessarily lead to the creation of a feminine-oriented partnership society with a penchant for bounday-dissolving orgies.Instead,it can lead to the attempt to match the volatile power and ambigious spectacles of the hallucinatory realms with bloody and horrible acts of appeasement.The psychedelic impulse can become dangerous and decadent."-BREAKING OPEN THE HEAD.Daniel Pinchbeck.p237.