3L3VAT3 Posted July 30, 2010 I mean really... this seems like an important question... do people ever really do something they don't want to do. Or really GIVE without expecting anything in return? If they do, then isn't what they are looking for is the ego boost of being like "oh i'm such a good person" I don't totally believe that everyone is completely self serving, but that seems to be the rule... perhaps the exception is COMPASSION, helping others, you know...WWJD...LOL... Is it synergy then? That we want pleasure but it's out true self that benefits from helping other, in that WE ALL ARE ONE? I dunno, just sum thoughts... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 30, 2010 ... do people ever really do something they don't want to do. Yes, I think this is a subject worth discussing. It is my understanding that survival is one of our basic instincts. So, im my mind, Self is always the most important. However, this is not always true, is it? We constantly see people doing themselves intentional harm. Suicide is a perfect example. And then there are those who put themselves in harm's way for the purpose of helping or protecting others and even our ideals without concerning ourselves with our own personal best interests. So, short answer to your question, I suggest: "Yes". And then there are those times when we need do something we do not enjoy or want to do but we have determined that doing such is in our long-term best interest. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted July 30, 2010 Yes, I think this is a subject worth discussing. The actual subject it seems to me, here, is "How is your practice going?" If it's going well, the 'need an ego boost by doing something that looks good' is really alien. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 30, 2010 The actual subject it seems to me, here, is "How is your practice going?" If it's going well, the 'need an ego boost by doing something that looks good' is really alien. While I do agree with you, you have made it all too easy. Hehehe. (Yes, I know, wu wei.) Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3L3VAT3 Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) The actual subject it seems to me, here, is "How is your practice going?" If it's going well, the 'need an ego boost by doing something that looks good' is really alien. True.... But what about doing something genuinely good (which sometimes involves giving someone a kick in the ass or telling them off)? Something where its the right thing, but everyone will hate you at first... Doesn't Buddhism have Compassion as a HUGH part of the whole system? (i dunno about taoism though) Maybe even compassion is a form of self-preservation... Like 'oh if i help this loser co worker with his annoying girlfriend problems, it'll maybe stop him from coming in here and shooting the place up or something' In one of Yahuda Berg's books dude talks about real spirituality being doing something when you dont' want to do it but you do cuz it's the 'right thing'... he says that if you want to do it then its not spirituality... I think that's a crock of shit, but maybe i'm just a selfish prick... I posted a topic a while ago about the famous picture of the monk who burned himself in protest... how does that figure in? There wasn't much self-preservation in that... and of course the whole Jesus myth... but then so many Christians are masochistic douches who just want to feel morally superiour because they are mad at the rest of the world for having so much fun. (sorry i work with some real nutters, they are petty sneaky miserable things...most of em ) But there HAS to be a place for genuine service to others... otherwise this whole life is just a cruel Psychopathic battle... right? i mean, wtf? Edited July 30, 2010 by 3L3VAT3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 30, 2010 But there HAS to be a place for genuine service to others... otherwise this whole life is just a cruel Psychopathic battle... right? i mean, wtf? On a personal note, I have found it much easier to give to charities since I reached the level of "having enough". When I have excess, I give. When I don't have enough or I have a financial goal then I don't. Bottom line is, "Me first". Contentment allows for compassion and giving. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 30, 2010 ... is the level of abstraction between the decision and the gratification. For a very long time now I have felt that the purest form of charity is giving without knowing who benefits from the giving and no thanks are ever recieved. This, I think, removes the ego of the giver from the equation. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 30, 2010 ... but I would maintain that the motivation is still ultimately selfish, in that it makes the giver "feel better" or "feel more charitable" or "feel more connected to nature|God|Tao|<insert-belief-here>." That is, however, a very high level of abstraction and is, therefore, very far removed from immediate self-gratification. You may well be right but I will not entertain the question as thought on the subject may ruin what little I am able to do. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 30, 2010 The child in need of the hot meal doesn't really care... Granted that. And that is basically why I do what I do. To assist those who are less fortunate than I am. I still won't entertain the other considerations as I do not wish to distort this perfect image I have of myself. Hehehe. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral_Anima Posted August 1, 2010 (edited) This IS a good topic . I agree that everything is ultimately selfish. Compassionate acts can give one a pleasurable sensation, a positive self image, etc which can motivate one to help others. It increases the chance of others helping you and also it's an exchange of positivity which is almost as contagious as laughter . Personally when I see kids smiling, laughing and having fun I can't help but smile and feel good inside. When I see people grimacing, fighting, and generally in pain, I feel pained. So it's natural for me to want the best for others because in that way I get the best for myself. I know this is how I work, I can't say that about everyone, but I think that could be the case with alot of people. Also to give without expectation in return...I don't think thats not exactly the case. You may not expect material things but the reason you'd help someone is probably because ... A.) it's the right thing to do (preservation of self image) B.) It makes you feel good inside (pleasurable feelings) C.) To increase the chances of them helping/supporting you sometime in the future whether it be by means of material things, emotional support or the points in parenthesis of A and B. just my 2c -Astral Edited August 1, 2010 by Astral_Anima Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 1, 2010 Hi Astral, Good points all. I will readily agree that I am selfish and even suggest that we all are to some degree. As I have said someplace else, I'm sure, when I use rational thought and logic I always come first in my life. I need to take care of myself if I expect to be able to help others. But then, at an intuitional or inspirational level, without rational thought, I may deny myself for the good of another. Wu wei allows us to do the undoable (is that a word?). Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral_Anima Posted August 1, 2010 Hi Astral, Good points all. I will readily agree that I am selfish and even suggest that we all are to some degree. As I have said someplace else, I'm sure, when I use rational thought and logic I always come first in my life. I need to take care of myself if I expect to be able to help others. But then, at an intuitional or inspirational level, without rational thought, I may deny myself for the good of another. Wu wei allows us to do the undoable (is that a word?). Peace & Love! Yeah, when it comes down to denying yourself something for the good of others, I think it has to do with priorities. If you value the good of your fellow man more than the good of yourself then you will get more (mentally/spiritually) for helping them. Some people who believe in an afterlife will sacrifice their mortal lives for the sake of another because they don't value their mortal life as much as one who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It all depends on what brings you more pleasure on a mental/spiritual level imo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 1, 2010 Yeah, when it comes down to denying yourself something for the good of others, I think it has to do with priorities. If you value the good of your fellow man more than the good of yourself then you will get more (mentally/spiritually) for helping them. Some people who believe in an afterlife will sacrifice their mortal lives for the sake of another because they don't value their mortal life as much as one who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It all depends on what brings you more pleasure on a mental/spiritual level imo Yep. I have to agree with that. Our own individual priorities govern our actions. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ramon25 Posted August 1, 2010 We live within oursleves and expirience the world through ourselves so SELF-ish is the only thing we can be. Now I ask Why is that a bad thing? Yet in a larger sense we are all one LITEALLY. One huge organism, like any other. Cells in the body acting for themselves and their own survival also IRONICALLY contribute to their place in the whole. BY Helping we are helped, and by being helped we are helping. True balance is acting for yourself AND others. Preserving the self and when possible assining others, WITH A SESNE of compassion and yet if something is going to be given back, it should be embraced and accepted as part of the process. I think wanting to be TOTALLy selfless is a form of self hate. I mean if you dont love yourself enough to preserve and work for yourself in the world?... On the otherhand again it is clear that a connection to others and to a larger whole is radically important to mental and pyscial health aswell as social health for the communtity as a whole. All things are fractal in nature and it starts with the individual, happiness and abundance at the singular level eventually spreads into happiness and abundance at the macro level. So BE Selfish but also be loving and compassionate, which in the end is two sides of the same coin. We have to cater to the self and to the others, Yet begin with yourself, love yourself first that in the end is where the journey begins and ends. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 1, 2010 Beautiful post Ramon25. Thanks for joining the discussion. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral_Anima Posted August 1, 2010 Ramon- haha I like the concept of trying to be entirely "selfless" as a form of self hate. Also very good point in general. i agree that selfishness and compassion are indeed two sides of the same coin. Cause in the end why would we do anything unless we got something out of it? (something could be conformity to an appealing image, a warm fuzzy feeling, and ego boost, or some kind of pleasurable sensation) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3L3VAT3 Posted August 2, 2010 Good replies all. What about situations where it's 'You or Them'... like in ghetto's or some other situation where you have to take another life or do something heinous to provide for yourself or YOUR family? Isn't there a side also where if WE ALL ARE ONE, by struggling and weeding out the 'weak' that the whole is made stronger? I guess what i'm saying is I see where you want to have life in order and THEN you help someone else... like a rich soccer mom who gives a couple old shirts to charity... but what about when you cleary have to decide between yourself or someone else? I think they call it a 'zero sum' game... Also what explains SUPREME acts of sacrafice like this monk that set himself on fire.? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 2, 2010 What about situations where it's 'You or Them'... It's me first. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3L3VAT3 Posted August 2, 2010 It's me first. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Peace & Love! NO doubt! THat's how i feel also... but a lot of people try to push that 'white light' self-sacrafice stuff... I'm sure there's something to it but i don't really understand it... but... Do What Thou Wilt... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 2, 2010 NO doubt! THat's how i feel also... but a lot of people try to push that 'white light' self-sacrafice stuff... I'm sure there's something to it but i don't really understand it... but... Do What Thou Wilt... Yep. And there are those who like to place themselves in postions that they have only read about in books. And be true to at least yourself. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
