The experts say you can't take it with you

[longrhythm]

Supposedly, wisdom acquired in an altered state is only accessible in an altered state. I've experience this to be true.

 

My "peak" state occurs right around now, when I'm up for about 2 hours after crashing hard at the close of last nights bender. Just the right amount of BAC and THC (that's booze and weed if ya need) in my body gives me access to all the social intuition I could ever want.

 

Fact is at this point in my life, I'm fully aware that my success hinges on my ability to motivate people in a specific direction, yours does too. But I need the charm and gregariousness that comes from that "peak" state to even start the fire that will build the momentum.

 

How many of you battle this? It's not a desperate situation, it's an aspiration. How many of you know just what it takes to get into your "peak" state where everything flows according to your intention, and want to eliminate some of the required steps?

 

Meditation does some of the work, but even that is too much of a time sink. I'm talking about lasting change. Reaching a place where you don't need a certain behavior or substance to reach your peak state of flow, you just live in it.

 

How many of you have ever questioned whether meditation is an addiction? And how can you distinguish between and addiction and a means to an end where the end is just so far you can't see it?

 

Since you've read this far, answer my questions or tell me what's on your mind.

[fizix]

Ah yes.....the ever controversial, ever desired "the state". The true nature of "the state" is a non-empty void of stillness, attunement with the Tao.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Supposedly, wisdom acquired in an altered state is only accessible in an altered state. I've experience this to be true.

 

My "peak" state occurs right around now, when I'm up for about 2 hours after crashing hard at the close of last nights bender. Just the right amount of BAC and THC (that's booze and weed if ya need) in my body gives me access to all the social intuition I could ever want.

 

Fact is at this point in my life, I'm fully aware that my success hinges on my ability to motivate people in a specific direction, yours does too. But I need the charm and gregariousness that comes from that "peak" state to even start the fire that will build the momentum.

 

How many of you battle this? It's not a desperate situation, it's an aspiration. How many of you know just what it takes to get into your "peak" state where everything flows according to your intention, and want to eliminate some of the required steps?

 

Meditation does some of the work, but even that is too much of a time sink. I'm talking about lasting change. Reaching a place where you don't need a certain behavior or substance to reach your peak state of flow, you just live in it.

 

How many of you have ever questioned whether meditation is an addiction? And how can you distinguish between and addiction and a means to an end where the end is just so far you can't see it?

 

Since you've read this far, answer my questions or tell me what's on your mind.

Wisdom acquired in an altered state is not wisdom. .

 

Meditation is not an addiction, it is living itself. There is no end. Practice and enlightenment are one.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Brian]

..

[Birch]

"How many of you have ever questioned whether meditation is an addiction?"

 

Good call!

 

How about also questioning whether meditation is:

 

- an escape from personal responsibility and action in the world?

- a way to achieve resolution of "real-life" frustrated desires?

- an excuse to act like an a44h8le on internet forums

- an activity to make oneself feel "special" with respect to others

- necessary?

 

Of course because it's me asking, I will also answer from my point of view: Of course ALL of the above

[Old Man Contradiction]

"Drunk On Emptiness" a term by Adyashanti.

 

I love the social atmosphere of being drunk with people. But the alcohol drowns the hardship of sober social life. I believe the hardship is the preamble to naturally owning the experience. So I try to be sober for the vast majority of my social life.

[longrhythm]

Ah yes.....the ever controversial, ever desired "the state". The true nature of "the state" is a non-empty void of stillness, attunement with the Tao.

 

do you need to be still to have stillness? I think Lucky7 touched on this pretty well.

 

 

Wisdom acquired in an altered state is not wisdom. .

 

Meditation is not an addiction, it is living itself. There is no end. Practice and enlightenment are one.

 

Supposedly addiction is exactly something that has no end.

 

I know we're about the journey, not the destination, and that's why I ask if it's an addiction. By our rationale, any addiction you have could be seen as a means to an end that hasn't yet been reached. It'd be fun to rationalize some- how bout gambling?

 

If it's not wisdom I've acquired, then what is it? How come every time I go back to that altered state I have these resources available to me that I've developed in all the time I've spent in that altered state? And wouldn't you consider meditation an altered state, too?

 

LOL Is that another way of saying, "D00d! You're not deep; you're just high!"?

 

LOL SPOT ON D00d!!!

 

"How many of you have ever questioned whether meditation is an addiction?"

 

Good call!

 

How about also questioning whether meditation is:

 

- an escape from personal responsibility and action in the world?

- a way to achieve resolution of "real-life" frustrated desires?

- an excuse to act like an a44h8le on internet forums

- an activity to make oneself feel "special" with respect to others

- necessary?

 

Of course because it's me asking, I will also answer from my point of view: Of course ALL of the above

 

Of course each of your points warrants it's own response, I'll try and be quick

 

1. I definitely feel I've used it this way. Funny enough though, it's also been the basis for some real life action. I've got a bunch of convos that I had in the flesh which were colored by my experience as a meditator. Can you think of one you've had?

 

2. I'd bet this drives most of us. At least for myself I'm alot more motivated to avoid pain than I am to seek pleasure. (That doesn't mean I don't seek pleasure

 

3. LOL GUILTY

 

4. I want to know what you mean by this- from a comparative stance is this something you'd say that sets us apart from those who don't meditate? Or do you mean this in terms of strengthening your relationships?

 

"Drunk On Emptiness" a term by Adyashanti.

 

I love the social atmosphere of being drunk with people. But the alcohol drowns the hardship of sober social life. I believe the hardship is the preamble to naturally owning the experience. So I try to be sober for the vast majority of my social life.

 

I love it because it drowns out the hardship. And if the hardship is the preamble to naturally owning the experience (which sounds pretty legit on paper), then what does that mean about the relationships I've forged under the influence? (which are many)

 

I meet em drunk and date em sober, and I'm not the best guy in the world to be with, but I've had some great ones, and some generally good feedback. How can I account for long term success with it's beginnings "in the muck"?

[Astral_Anima]

Addiction has such a negative connotation. We're addicted to food, we're addicted to sleep, we're addicted to some form of movement, some of us are addicted to stillness, etc , etc. By that definition of addiction it's not really addiction, it's cause and effect. In order to get this effect you must do this action. If you desire life then you must eat and sleep to keep living (most of us anyway ). So most of us find habits that bring us pleasure, whether it be helping others, exercise, spiritual practice, etc. However when you form unhealthy habits or associations like smoking with being "cool"...that can be harmful. When you deal with substances that deteriorate you health like alcohol, cigarettes, white sugar, etc and you attach their usage to some sort of relief from stress or to boost serotonin or oxytocin( ) it can be labeled an addiction because you're getting harm but because of the minor (perhaps major depending on perspective) benefit you're unwilling to stop.

 

Then of course there's physical addiction where the body actually goes through withdraw symptoms when it ceases the intake of the named substance. But of course positive and negative in the human sense is relative to our goals. For example health or maybe even life may not be a goal for an indiviual so anything that would destroy health or life may not be seen as terribly negative. However from the perspective of a population that values life and health it may be seen as an addiction. The biggest thing (imo) is to have your priorities straight. Know what you want and go after it. The greatest problem is when you have two conflicting desires, where attaining one means compromising the other, so one must prioritize...

 

 

XP

[sifusufi]

Just read in the Magus of Java last night about taking the yin/yang to be able to be seen.

News to me, as I just try to be well in this dimension.

 

Getting there

[Brian]

..

[effilang]

LOL Is that another way of saying, "D00d! You're not deep; you're just high!"?

 

I LOL'ed

[Birch]

" an activity to make oneself feel "special" with respect to others"

 

- definitely meant the "coolness" factor - i.e. "Look at my heroic journey through my own mind and life . Bet you wouldn't be able to do it = I kick serious ass etc.."

 

Of course no-one can see me doing it except me so it is kind of pointless

[3bob]

Supposedly, wisdom acquired in an altered state is only accessible in an altered state. I've experience this to be true.

 

My "peak" state occurs right around now, when I'm up for about 2 hours after crashing hard at the close of last nights bender. Just the right amount of BAC and THC (that's booze and weed if ya need) in my body gives me access to all the social intuition I could ever want.

 

Fact is at this point in my life, I'm fully aware that my success hinges on my ability to motivate people in a specific direction, yours does too. But I need the charm and gregariousness that comes from that "peak" state to even start the fire that will build the momentum.

 

How many of you battle this? It's not a desperate situation, it's an aspiration. How many of you know just what it takes to get into your "peak" state where everything flows according to your intention, and want to eliminate some of the required steps?

 

Meditation does some of the work, but even that is too much of a time sink. I'm talking about lasting change. Reaching a place where you don't need a certain behavior or substance to reach your peak state of flow, you just live in it.

 

How many of you have ever questioned whether meditation is an addiction? And how can you distinguish between and addiction and a means to an end where the end is just so far you can't see it?

 

Since you've read this far, answer my questions or tell me what's on your mind.

 

"...Fact is at this point in my life, I'm fully aware that my success hinges on my ability to motivate people in a specific direction, yours does too..." by Longrhythm

 

An aspect of such takes place with "worldly" orientated people using and or manipulating other people and the ways of the world, with such often becoming becoming forms of "black" or "white" "magic". (knowingly or unknowingly and also under various terms besides black or white magic)

 

Anyway, part of a true success to me would be to give up any attachments to or the uses of black or white magic manipulations, thus resulting in being in a truly magical state in the spiritual sense.

 

Om

Edited July 31, 2010 by 3bob

[Old Man Contradiction]

 

I love it because it drowns out the hardship. And if the hardship is the preamble to naturally owning the experience (which sounds pretty legit on paper), then what does that mean about the relationships I've forged under the influence? (which are many)

 

I meet em drunk and date em sober, and I'm not the best guy in the world to be with, but I've had some great ones, and some generally good feedback. How can I account for long term success with it's beginnings "in the muck"?

 

I don't see any conflict in overcoming social barriers to gain social fluency (while sober), and having ended up with someone that is right for you. About learning to handle immediate society, meeting someone sober is a challenge IME. I don't really know whether learning the skill drunk will be retained while sober. I tend to think not because alcohol directly alleviates us of one main trap of social failure: lack of confidence. Without alcohol, this trait is dominant, although slowly subsiding as I grow older and have more experiences. Still, out of all the times I've been drunk and kosher with people, that skill has never remained when I'm sober.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Old Man Contradiction

[longrhythm]

Then of course there's physical addiction where the body actually goes through withdraw symptoms when it ceases the intake of the named substance. But of course positive and negative in the human sense is relative to our goals. For example health or maybe even life may not be a goal for an indiviual so anything that would destroy health or life may not be seen as terribly negative. However from the perspective of a population that values life and health it may be seen as an addiction. The biggest thing (imo) is to have your priorities straight. Know what you want and go after it. The greatest problem is when you have two conflicting desires, where attaining one means compromising the other, so one must prioritize...

 

Nail on the head! It's all about conflicting desires. One desire would be for peak physical health, and the other would be for peak social health.

 

Many will say that they shouldn't be mutually exclusive desires, and I'm one of those people. The real question is, how do I take all the social skill available to me when I'm under the influence and carry it over to when I'm not.

 

Just read in the Magus of Java last night about taking the yin/yang to be able to be seen.

News to me, as I just try to be well in this dimension.

 

Getting there

 

Huh?

 

Oh, I think I am definitely addicted to food! I swear, sometimes I think that I'd just die if I quit.

 

budum chh! Kinda what I'm getting at though. I depend on social fluidity to survive, so if I quit all social lubricants...

 

" an activity to make oneself feel "special" with respect to others"

 

- definitely meant the "coolness" factor - i.e. "Look at my heroic journey through my own mind and life . Bet you wouldn't be able to do it = I kick serious ass etc.."

 

Of course no-one can see me doing it except me so it is kind of pointless

 

I used to take that same "Bet you wouldn't be able to" stance. At some point I started to feel that was part of a divisive tendency I had that was hindering my relationships at large and I made a point of shifting away from it, and what I found was that so many people I never considered are at least struggling to take the journey.

 

What I feel is that most people are only missing a system, but the stuff we're into is shockingly intuitive. (Makes sense since it was developed on intuition)

 

I remember a friend of mine once was stressing because her father was very ill. I put my hand on her sacrum and said "I'm not trying to be weird, but feel this? This is a part of your body that is always calm. Whenever anything is freaking you out if you can feel what's going on there you'll be OK"

 

She was really moved by that, and from that day on I can talk even the geekiest details of my Taoist practice with her and she's totally eager to learn.

 

An aspect of such takes place with "worldly" orientated people using and or manipulating other people and the ways of the world, with such often becoming becoming forms of "black" or "white" "magic". (knowingly or unknowingly and also under various terms besides black or white magic)

 

Anyway, part of a true success to me would be to give up any attachments to or the uses of black or white magic manipulations, thus resulting in being in a truly magical state in the spiritual sense.

 

Om

 

I've cultivated those nobler intentions of detachment and giving up manipulations, and I respect you for maintaining them. For me I just want a backdrop of needless formless to return to, while I navigate the "worldly" wants, needs, and motivations. That is how I celebrate the form I've been given right now.

 

To me that's actually the point of developing the unnattached, formlessness, something I couldn't put better than I did here - http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/13915-i-have-cultivated-this-empitness/

 

I don't see any conflict in overcoming social barriers to gain social fluency (while sober), and having ended up with someone that is right for you. About learning to handle immediate society, meeting someone sober is a challenge IME. I don't really know whether learning the skill drunk will be retained while sober. I tend to think not because alcohol directly alleviates us of one main trap of social failure: lack of confidence. Without alcohol, this trait is dominant, although slowly subsiding as I grow older and have more experiences. Still, out of all the times I've been drunk and kosher with people, that skill has never remained when I'm sober.

 

Exactly! That's the predicament. Do you have to start from scratch when you take substance out of the picture? I've covered alot of ground under the influence, and it's not to say there wasn't development necessary.

 

I can even remember a time when no amount of booze or weed would open me up enough to meet new people.

 

So I've covered ground under the influence, next step is to take that ground and translate it to a sober state. And as you've correctly noted, easier said than done.

 

What I meant by "what does that mean about the relationships?" is that to me, a successful relationship forged under the influence means I've naturally owned the experience of meeting them. Maybe I postponed naturally owning it to the second meeting, when I was sober, but I believe that what happens next in a relationship can retroactively "naturally own" the initial meet.

Edited August 3, 2010 by longrhythm

[Birch]

"At some point I started to feel that was part of a divisive tendency I had that was hindering my relationships at large and I made a point of shifting away from it, and what I found was that so many people I never considered are at least struggling to take the journey."

 

This is a neat insight.

[Vajrahridaya]

"How many of you have ever questioned whether meditation is an addiction?"

 

Good call!

 

How about also questioning whether meditation is:

 

- an escape from personal responsibility and action in the world?

- a way to achieve resolution of "real-life" frustrated desires?

- an excuse to act like an a44h8le on internet forums

- an activity to make oneself feel "special" with respect to others

- necessary?

 

Of course because it's me asking, I will also answer from my point of view: Of course ALL of the above

 

Meditating 30 minutes a day could hardly be considered a bad addiction. Everyone should spend time in retreat meditating many hours per day and focusing on wisdom practice journals and writing ones own. Now if conditions are that you would be ignoring responsibilities to a point of complete life detriment, than I'd agree with you. But really... every yogi goes through the period of spiritual pride, even if they hide it very well. I don't!

[Birch]

"every yogi goes through the period of spiritual pride,"

 

I have to concede! Do you know what comes after that?

[Capital]

To Longrhythm:

 

1: I noticed you talked about avoiding pain. If that's your intent, you will be constantly struggling. Perhaps weeds use at dulling pain helps with meditation, as you forget your fight with avoiding it?

 

2: If you come at weed with the right intention, and you use it sparingly and with ritual, you can learn a good bit. The way many use it ruins the purpose, as you lose every good thing when you hit that bowl another time. Your memory of the event WON'T stay unless you stop smoking, vaping, or eating and meditate sober. This is, obviously, especially true of weed as short term memories have a lot of trouble becoming long term memories.

 

I used to smoke daily. When I quit (which is so easy NO ONE can say it's an addictive substance), I found- the few times that I touch it when peer pressure becomes absolutely head-to-wall bothersome- that a lot of the wisdom you learned comes back to you physically, or in 'Aha!' moments, rather than through thinking back on it.

[longrhythm]

Meditating 30 minutes a day could hardly be considered a bad addiction. Everyone should spend time in retreat meditating many hours per day and focusing on wisdom practice journals and writing ones own. Now if conditions are that you would be ignoring responsibilities to a point of complete life detriment, than I'd agree with you. But really... every yogi goes through the period of spiritual pride, even if they hide it very well. I don't!

 

This is a good point, and it raises a different angle on my initial question. When you define addiction by the impact it has on your lifes priorities, I need to go back to my initial concern about weed and booze. The fact is those things do have undeniably positive effects in my life, and my use of them has not interfered with my ability to tend to my priorities (at least not for a long time.) So does that then mean under those circumstances that weed and booze are not "bad" addictions?

 

"every yogi goes through the period of spiritual pride,"

 

I have to concede! Do you know what comes after that?

 

For me this part looked like I was distancing from my practice, but what it turned out to be was assimilation of the work, harvesting the benefits. Once I stopped meditating every day of course I stopped defining myself by it and priding myself on it. And at the same time I started to see the fruits of my labor appearing in my day to day life during other activities. Kind of a forest for the trees sort of thing.

 

 

Would you say a little more about this writing practice?

 

I second that. I know many of us keep our personal journals on here, and contribute to the forums, but I'd love to hear what role the written part plays for you vajra, as for me my personal journal, as well as my forum contributions have usually been kind of spontaneous in nature, less a structured or calculated part of my routine practices.

 

 

To Longrhythm:

 

1: I noticed you talked about avoiding pain. If that's your intent, you will be constantly struggling. Perhaps weeds use at dulling pain helps with meditation, as you forget your fight with avoiding it?

 

Did I talk about avoiding pain? Whoops! I agree with you wholeheartedly that avoiding pain is a mistake, I'd say moving towards pleasure is a much better choice. I don't personally think I do it to avoid pain. Maybe when I was younger, but now it's more to add more pleasure to my already satisfying life.

 

The fact is that I'm pretty normal by most peoples standards, but my goals in terms of my social development are what most would consider abnormal. For instance, I live in a densely populated city, where it's common to walk right past strangers with brief eye contact at most. But if I pass 10 strangers without talking to one, I feel a missed opportunity. Substances have helped me in the past to break that shell and make friends on the street where they may have responded skeptically had I been sober.

 

I know what you mean about "felt" wisdom while high, my question is can you hold on to that feeling even after the THC totally leaves your system? I can usually hang onto a mental memory of the feeling, but it doesn't translate into the actual experience so much.