Putting the Microcosmic Orbit in historical perspective

[Encephalon]

Edited July 31, 2010 by Blasto

[idquest]

I was told that in the advanced levels the light circulates the route of MCO.

 

In the beginning stages students don't have any light yet; so the goal on that stage is to train body awareness and automatic response.

 

In his Qigong Empowerment Shou Yu Liang mentions that true MCO occurs spontaneously in the sleep at night; other times we try to reproduce conditions for MCO to the lesser or greater degree of success.

 

Another thing, more advanced meditations produce energy that should not get stuck just for safety. FOr this reason any routes should be available to absorb excess energy. This is why even 'level one' MCO is useful along with other routes.

[宁]

[Encephalon]

Great thread! And great idea! Too bad it won't be very much exploited, and that may have the attitude in your post as a cause, amoung others.

 

In Qigong, as in everything, the same saying is appliable, no pain, no gain, no guts, no glory. Each of the 'levels' or 'stages' of the MCO come with a price tag.

You have to afford it first, in terms of training, sometimes up to 5 or more hours a day, drastic sexual and nutrition discipline, and an overall change in the energy of your entire life.

Why go for a Ferrari, when you can't even afford a bike?

This are just prerequisites, in order for you to have a chanse at having a chanse.

 

Is this a language barrier incident, or have I completely failed to clearly present the goal of this post?

Edited July 31, 2010 by Blasto

[mjjbecker]

The microcosmic orbit is not a 'technique' or a 'method' of training. There is no conflict between it and neigong-it is something that happens once a certain level of neigong is reached.

 

The 'debate' on the other thread was in relation to methods that try to 'force' the microcosmic orbit vs methods that open it 'naturally'.

 

You get your 'Microcosmic Orbit' exercises in some schools. In others you simply get told to 'practice and see what happens'. Some teachers prefer not to discuss this process because they believe it is better for the student to directly experience the process, rather than to be aware of it and then to try and make it happen (I am making an educated pitch, based on what I've seen, that this is the case with Master Chu and his neigong system).

 

There is also some debate over the exact definition of the term. Some claim it is simply the movement of qi through the Ren and Du meridians (from what I recall). Others say the 'true' microcosmic orbit is a profound movement of qi through these meridians, a major, and rare, opening up of these channels, with very significant effects for the practitioner.

 

My own personal opinion, FWIW, is to stick with the Chu Nei Kung, (because you have an affinity with it and it works for you) as well as the Eternal Spring Chi Kung (because he's added some extra neigong exercises into it) and add the meditation he is now also teaching. I believe Master Chu has a complete method of training and you don't need to add things on to it (possibly why your teacher seemed 'dismayed'?) From there, I am sure 'interesting' things will happen.

[Aetherous]

The microcosmic orbit is not a 'technique' or a 'method' of training.

 

Really? It's written about as a method in Tao of Health, Longevity and Immortality...which is a translation of a book probably from 900 CE. They call it the waterwheel.

 

Taoist Yoga by Luk talks about it as a practice...

 

There is no rift between neigong and MCO practice. There are just some people who practice some neigong techniques who think MCO practice isn't included in "neigong".

[Encephalon]

 

The 'debate' on the other thread was in relation to methods that try to 'force' the microcosmic orbit vs methods that open it 'naturally'.

 

 

 

My apologies. Thank you for clarifying this point. Failure to make that important distinction was cumbersome of me.

 

Have you gotten ahold of the "Eternal Spring" Chi kung dvd?

Edited July 31, 2010 by Blasto

[Vajrasattva]

what rift?

 

MCO is a natural thing.

 

You learn let nature take its course.

 

Or you learn to naturally speed up the process and feel and see Nature take its course

 

Either way the truth is there are millions of orbits going on in the personal "field"

 

mco or MCO is just one. The bigger picture is still orbit way more than we are even aware of.

[Vajrasattva]

The "orbit" is seen in Kriya Yoga, Tibetan Yoga, Sufi & Egyptian practices, Gnostic Christian Practices, Taoist Meidtation.

 

Its "been around".

[VCraigP]

The "orbit" is seen in Kriya Yoga, Tibetan Yoga, Sufi & Egyptian practices, Gnostic Christian Practices, Taoist Meidtation.

 

Its "been around".

You are hereby fined 25 cents for egregious use of a pun.

 

Please pay the moderators.

 

_________________

 

The MCO IS. It exists whether you believe in it or not.

The question is whether one should ever utilize methods which use the mind to "open" the orbit or to assist in circulating in the orbit.

 

I studied with Chia and first learned about this through his theory and practice. I first experienced "something" in the orbit through his methods.

 

Is there a rift between qigong and neigong in this subject? No, I don't think so. The rift is principally between a few well known schools who teach methods to open and circulate the orbit and what appears to me to be the the majority position of everyone else who adhere to principals of Just Do It and things will open of their own accord at your own pace. In my experience MOST teachers don't want provide "leading" information. They don't want to comment on phenomena. They don't want to provide the student with expectations. The same attitude prevails with the orbit. IME it seems that most traditional qigong, kungfu, Neigong schools do not like to go into much details at all with regards to energetic architecture. This seems to be to avoid leading the student to have an experience an in interest of allowing the student to experience what arises naturally.

 

Of course I am speaking in generalities.

I believe I have expressed my preference elsewhere as that of allowing what arises to naturally arise. However my preference is entirely mine and biased by my personal experiences. Also it may be somewhat unfair to say to a beginner to NOT explore MCO practice as taught by Chia and others because that is just what I did...for years! But it is not what I do now.

 

Also, my positive experiences with Chia methods were perhaps enabled by years of my own meditation experimentation and years of Martial Arts training and especially flexibility training which preceded training with Chia. In other words I believe that there was already some water in the reservoir and some foundation had been laid already. So the principle of foundational basics before considering MCO practice or not is still one I adhere to.

 

Craig

[Vajrasattva]

You are hereby fined 25 cents for egregious use of a pun.

 

Please pay the moderators.

 

_________________

 

 

Bill me.....

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M60rLoCbbo

[mjjbecker]

Really? It's written about as a method in Tao of Health, Longevity and Immortality...which is a translation of a book probably from 900 CE. They call it the waterwheel.

 

Taoist Yoga by Luk talks about it as a practice...

 

There is no rift between neigong and MCO practice. There are just some people who practice some neigong techniques who think MCO practice isn't included in "neigong".

 

Yes, really. Re-read what I said as your comment does not contradict my point. The method/exercise/practice is named after the process. It is about making the MCO happen. The process came before the practice. It is a natural process, found in children before they hit puberty and become sexually active. Not my opinion, but from a teacher of a living, high level tradition.

 

I really have no interest in Luk's book. I will take living lineage over old, translated text. There are a lot of translated texts around, but there are very few high level teachers with actual experience and an ability to pass on what they know.

 

There seems to be some question over whether Luk knew anything of the actual practices or was simply someone who wrote a book. Throw on top translation from Chinese to English and you end up with something far removed from an actual living tradition.

 

I've not read the book but remember Ken saying it was useful as a bookstop but not much else. Given that recommendation, and his background in a living tradition of what is being described in the book, I've no inclination to buy the book.

 

In all fairness, the same goes for the various other translated texts that are out there. If the lineage is a dead one, then the all important verbal instruction has been lost.

[mjjbecker]

My apologies. Thank you for clarifying this point. Failure to make that important distinction was cumbersome of me.

 

Have you gotten ahold of the "Eternal Spring" Chi kung dvd?

 

I picked up the book and the Nei Kung book when I was back in the UK on vacation. I don't have the DVD's for either.

 

I've tried the exercises, though they are not part of my regular practice (time constraints, not because I don't rate them highly). I'm willing to speculate that Master Chu knows more than he has publicly released and that it would be worth the time and trouble to meet him in person and become a direct tudi.

[Aetherous]

Yes, really. Re-read what I said as your comment does not contradict my point. The method/exercise/practice is named after the process. It is about making the MCO happen. The process came before the practice.

 

I agree with this, but disagree with what you said previously...

 

The microcosmic orbit is not a 'technique' or a 'method' of training.

 

I will take living lineage over old, translated text.

 

Same here. But the old translated text shows that it was a practice around 900 CE, and as Blasto said from Reid's book, even earlier.

[寒月 Hanyue]

[三江源]

.

Edited August 2, 2010 by cat

[Ya Mu]

[Aetherous]

Edit: for some reason feels wrong to continue.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Scotty

[Encephalon]

Yes, this question has been answered. Special thanks to VcraigP, mjjbecker, Ya Mu, and all the rest.

 

"Thread is dead." -- TTB coroner.

[Trunk]

Somehow I'm in the habit of commenting late in the thread...

just to add a few points.

 

I think the orbit is over-emphasized. Practically I think that learning about all of the channels is most effective, the 12 ordinary and the 8 extraordinary. But that does not market well. Imagine saying "ok, we're gonna learn 20 channels and countless points"? No one would show up at that school, so the orbit is the effective intro. But the fact is that we are integral beings: All of the channels are important.

 

Though if you had to pick one channel that is eventually the one you're going to hang out with the most, it'd have to be the central (core, sushumna) channel. The Profound Transformations all happen there, and everything else works a lot better once a few beads on the central channel are Lit.

 

That's my late 2 cents.

[rain]

Somehow I'm in the habit of commenting late in the thread...

just to add a few points.

 

I think the orbit is over-emphasized. Practically I think that learning about all of the channels is most effective, the 12 ordinary and the 8 extraordinary. But that does not market well. Imagine saying "ok, we're gonna learn 20 channels and countless points"? No one would show up at that school, so the orbit is the effective intro. But the fact is that we are integral beings: All of the channels are important.

 

Though if you had to pick one channel that is eventually the one you're going to hang out with the most, it'd have to be the central (core, sushumna) channel. The Profound Transformations all happen there, and everything else works a lot better once a few beads on the central channel are Lit.

 

That's my late 2 cents.

 

 

Sometimes I am really surprised at what I read. I and a lot of other practitioners certainly enrolled into a medic qigong course that takes many years to excel in..and we were instantly introduced to the basic fact that we were going to work first at least one year on the 12 ordinary, then for severalyears on the 8 extraordinary, and still put in many more for advanced levels. Aware of the fact that without combining this with classic acupuncture studies we still are dealing with fairly superficial info and have to study on our own to gain more insight into the material.

 

The combination of taichi..the working on natural elements..in chias systematic innerorgan related alchemy practise esp the kan and li process..sublimation of sexual energy...bliss..the foundationing of core strength and breathwork in tkd and static luohan and the stilling of mindand emptiness through sitting and forgetting..the spontaneous symptomatic expression whic at best leads you diretly to blockages or love...all has been tremendously rewarding

 

I've been a sushumna addict ever since I was shaken by the power of this hose..and have had to deal with a serious setback karmically due to lack of overall maturity. I say look at the golden flower the merkaba instead..for a start

 

feeling neauseous, may have said something wrong? or right?

Edited August 3, 2010 by rain