Enlightenment

[Astral_Anima]

Hey all,

I just had a great think tank with some friends and I've come to realize I have NO IDEA what "enlightenment" is. I mean there's the term "to enlighten" which means to shed light upon or to clarify...but I'm wondering what enlightenment is from the standpoint of all of the people that use it.

 

Buddhism has a concept of enlightenment, particular Taoist arts have a concept of enlightenment, certainly the "New Age" and similar movements based on eastern philosophy have this concept of enlightenment however I've never heard an objective definition.

 

Enlightenment seems to be a "goal" that many people have however it seems the term enlightenment has been used rather loosely. Enlightenment today seems to be a term that is devoid of meaning and simply acts as a blank word that people can make up the meaning for by projecting their own subjective experiences and using that word to describe it. I mean ANYONE can just get up and say they're enlightened, use cryptic metaphors and double talk and sell books and seminars on their own personal philosophy (it seems to happen alot, especially today). Apparently it's some kind of state of being, however there seems to be no way to measure or identify if one is enlightened. Is there a process that one can mark and observe based on common experiences?

 

So what does enlightenment mean to you and is there an OBJECTIVE meaning to it, and if so would anyone care to "enlighten" me to it?

Thx,

-Astral

[Marblehead]

Hey all,

 

I just had a great think tank with some friends and I've come to realize I have NO IDEA what "enlightenment" is.

 

I love it!!!!

 

I'm with you on this one. I have no idea either.

 

(I used to think I knew the answer but I was delusional.)

 

Peace & Love!

[adept]

Excellent thread!

 

I haven't a clue either.

I've given up trying to be 'enlightened'.

I just try to live my life the best way I can.

[C T]

Enlightenment is not a super-state of being.

 

It is a state that is beyond the common definition of what is ordinary. For want of a word, call it supra-ordinariness. No more filters. Only then can one see the mountains and rivers for exactly what they are, without even having the need to label them. What remains is simply the unfolding of awareness upon awareness upon awareness ad infinitum.

 

Enlightenment is a process that is intimately and inseparably linked to one's degree of mindfulness to this unfolding process, and how pervasive in how many levels of one's life this mindfulness can penetrate and remain there.

 

If one day you wake up and can remain undistracted by every thing that happens around you, meaning you can view things without attaching any preferential attitudes, judgement, labels, commentaries, criticisms, biases... you see beyond the dualistic notions of all that arises in your field of awareness... when you are awake or when you are asleep, the equanimous poise is maintained without any grasping and/or aversion to what life throws in your direction... This is as close to remaining in an enlightened state of being as i can describe.

Edited August 1, 2010 by CowTao

[xabir2005]

Hey all,

I just had a great think tank with some friends and I've come to realize I have NO IDEA what "enlightenment" is. I mean there's the term "to enlighten" which means to shed light upon or to clarify...but I'm wondering what enlightenment is from the standpoint of all of the people that use it.

 

Buddhism has a concept of enlightenment, particular Taoist arts have a concept of enlightenment, certainly the "New Age" and similar movements based on eastern philosophy have this concept of enlightenment however I've never heard an objective definition.

 

Enlightenment seems to be a "goal" that many people have however it seems the term enlightenment has been used rather loosely. Enlightenment today seems to be a term that is devoid of meaning and simply acts as a blank word that people can make up the meaning for by projecting their own subjective experiences and using that word to describe it. I mean ANYONE can just get up and say they're enlightened, use cryptic metaphors and double talk and sell books and seminars on their own personal philosophy (it seems to happen alot, especially today). Apparently it's some kind of state of being, however there seems to be no way to measure or identify if one is enlightened. Is there a process that one can mark and observe based on common experiences?

 

So what does enlightenment mean to you and is there an OBJECTIVE meaning to it, and if so would anyone care to "enlighten" me to it?

Thx,

-Astral

Enlightenment means realising the true nature of reality... the true nature of mind....

 

There are not just one level of enlightenment, but many.

 

See Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

 

That link alone covers basically the essential realizations of contemplatives all over the world.

 

So yes, there is indeed a map, and the experiences are common.

Edited August 1, 2010 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

Enlightenment is not a super-state of being.

 

It is a state that is beyond the common definition of what is ordinary. For want of a word, call it supra-ordinariness. No more filters. Only then can one see the mountains and rivers for exactly what they are, without even having the need to label them. What remains is simply the unfolding of awareness upon awareness upon awareness ad infinitum.

 

Enlightenment is a process that is intimately and inseparably linked to one's degree of mindfulness to this unfolding process, and how pervasive in how many levels of one's life this mindfulness can penetrate and remain there.

 

If one day you wake up and can remain undistracted by every thing that happens around you, meaning you can view things without attaching any preferential attitudes, judgement, labels, commentaries, criticisms, biases... you see beyond the dualistic notions of all that arises in you field of awareness... when you are awake or when you are asleep, the equanimous poise is maintained without any grasping and/or aversion to what life throws in your direction... This is as close to remaining in an enlightened state of being as i can describe.

 

I actually liked that (even though it came from a Buddhist, Hehehe).

 

Peace & Love!

[Astral_Anima]

Cowtao,

No offense but I really don't understand what you mean at all. Supra-ordinary? Greater than ordinary? I mean drugs get you that effect but I would hardly consider them "enlightening" (though there are sum who would disagree). Labels are just words we use to express our thoughts to others. By "no more filters"...what exactly do you mean? what filters are present that apparently restrict us from seeing what mountains really are? How does one see a mountain differently? does it change shape or color?

 

You say there's a strong connection to mindfulness. Are you saying that it's being aware of your environment and yourself? By being undistracted by your environment...what do you mean? You notice things without paying attention? Notice things while remaining aware of other things?

 

I mean honestly what you seem to put forawrd, to me, sounds like a state of being asleep. It's by judging and discerning the qualities of things that we find the truth in them. It's by labeling "man yelling at you with a gun" as "dangerous", that you understand your situation. Without judgments, labels and basic discernment...well you wouldn't be observing, lol.

 

By being "non-dualistic" (a term that has yet to be defined for me) and without aversion or "grasping to" it seems as if you simply become complacent and apathetic and discarding basic discernment. I mean if you can't see the difference between pain and pleasure, between compassion and cruelty, then the teachings of Buddhism are contradictory and are thus inert.

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, if so please help me to understand what you're saying.

 

 

Xabir- I'm afraid anyone can read texts and blindly begin to conform to what the text says and thus believe themself to be "enlightened". When you say enlightenment is the "realising the true nature of reality" ...isn't that what science is doing?

 

Also the "levels" of enlightenment are WAY too subjective and not entirely measurable on the level I was getting at. I mean how can you tell if one is enlightened? I mean, anyone can read a book and think about things and convince themselves they're "enlightened" but what are the guidelines for judging one who makes such a claim?

 

Thank you both

[C T]

I actually liked that (even though it came from a Buddhist, Hehehe).

 

Peace & Love!

Haha funny guy you are MH!

 

The above is attainable by any person. The Buddhist path have a pretty complete system put in place that can train one to find, stabilize, and remain in this state of equanimity. It may not be the only one, but its the one i am most familiar with.

 

Most times it is the pure resting in awareness of the most ordinary events that create the stimulus to remain in this state of being. Read the accounts of most of the Zen/Taoist sages, and see if what has been ascribed makes sense.

 

Problem is most of us assign needs to be satisfied in terms of priorities. Question is how often do we get our priorities right? Problem is even after years of getting it wrong most times, we are still hooked on finding that elusive something that's gonna make our lives more 'right'. Therein lies the struggle... the exact struggle that removes one from poise and sets the pendulum of dualistic notions swinging.

 

All the very best!

[C T]

Cowtao,

No offense but I really don't understand what you mean at all. Supra-ordinary? Greater than ordinary? I mean drugs get you that effect but I would hardly consider them "enlightening" (though there are sum who would disagree). Labels are just words we use to express our thoughts to others. By "no more filters"...what exactly do you mean? what filters are present that apparently restrict us from seeing what mountains really are? How does one see a mountain differently? does it change shape or color?

 

You say there's a strong connection to mindfulness. Are you saying that it's being aware of your environment and yourself? By being undistracted by your environment...what do you mean? You notice things without paying attention? Notice things while remaining aware of other things?

 

I mean honestly what you seem to put forawrd, to me, sounds like a state of being asleep. It's by judging and discerning the qualities of things that we find the truth in them. It's by labeling "man yelling at you with a gun" as "dangerous", that you understand your situation. Without judgments, labels and basic discernment...well you wouldn't be observing, lol.

 

By being "non-dualistic" (a term that has yet to be defined for me) and without aversion or "grasping to" it seems as if you simply become complacent and apathetic and discarding basic discernment. I mean if you can't see the difference between pain and pleasure, between compassion and cruelty, then the teachings of Buddhism are contradictory and are thus inert.

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, if so please help me to understand what you're saying.

 

 

Xabir- I'm afraid anyone can read texts and blindly begin to conform to what the text says and thus believe themself to be "enlightened". When you say enlightenment is the "realising the true nature of reality" ...isn't that what science is doing?

 

Also the "levels" of enlightenment are WAY too subjective and not entirely measurable on the level I was getting at. I mean how can you tell if one is enlightened? I mean, anyone can read a book and think about things and convince themselves they're "enlightened" but what are the guidelines for judging one who makes such a claim?

 

Thank you both

Hello Astral..

 

Dont accept what i say to be the definitive definition of Enlightenment. This understanding is purely derived from the unique life-pattern that unfolded for me (and me alone).

 

Find your own understanding.

 

You say in your profile you like the sun, and plants and kittens... and you dislike society. Well, that's your current wisdom. Where you are at. Are you contented? If you are, then that's ok. Nothing more can be said.

 

 

Love is what you believe in. I believe in love too. The kind that does not ascribe preferences is the kind that i am most interested in. what about your kind of love? Do you love some more and others less? Where did this discrimination arise from? Well, i am not looking for answers here... its just an example of how we can investigate our notions about things, and derive a greater understanding of the futility of grasping at things that inherently do not have lasting fascinations, while at the same time avoiding things that we feel will impinge on our comfort zone.

 

Not saying having a comfort zone is wrong. Of course we all want comfort. Comfort is good. The crux is how well we can cope when this apparent safety zone is lost, or threatened, is what matters more.

 

All the best!

[三江源]

Enlightenment is not a super-state of being.

 

It is a state that is beyond the common definition of what is ordinary. For want of a word, call it supra-ordinariness. No more filters. Only then can one see the mountains and rivers for exactly what they are, without even having the need to label them. What remains is simply the unfolding of awareness upon awareness upon awareness ad infinitum.

 

Enlightenment is a process that is intimately and inseparably linked to one's degree of mindfulness to this unfolding process, and how pervasive in how many levels of one's life this mindfulness can penetrate and remain there.

 

If one day you wake up and can remain undistracted by every thing that happens around you, meaning you can view things without attaching any preferential attitudes, judgement, labels, commentaries, criticisms, biases... you see beyond the dualistic notions of all that arises in your field of awareness... when you are awake or when you are asleep, the equanimous poise is maintained without any grasping and/or aversion to what life throws in your direction... This is as close to remaining in an enlightened state of being as i can describe.

 

I think this is a pretty good definition of first stage enlightenment, which is why you can be 'enlightened' and still be a complete asshole.

 

Further stages of enlightenment would include intelligence of the heart, compassion, discernment and many many other ting involving ability to be true, to be love, and to be untangled in personal complexes, in other words, to have self knowledge, without which enlightenment is as an ice cream on a summer day... cool, but so what?

[Marblehead]

Haha funny guy you are MH!

 

The above is attainable by any person.

 

All the very best!

 

Well, of course. You are talking about wu wei here.

 

And the very best to you as well.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I think this is a pretty good definition of first stage enlightenment, which is why you can be 'enlightened' and still be a complete asshole.

 

Ouch!!! Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[xabir2005]

Xabir- I'm afraid anyone can read texts and blindly begin to conform to what the text says and thus believe themself to be "enlightened". When you say enlightenment is the "realising the true nature of reality" ...isn't that what science is doing?

I also said 'nature of mind'... the nature of consciousness.

 

Honestly, science may apparently know quite a lot about the material world... but any honest scientist will tell you that the understanding of consciousness in science is really at a very primitive level.

 

When I talk about enlightenment, I am talking about discovering the nature of consciousness. That is, your own direct experience... having direct insight and realization about your own direct experience. It is a non-conceptual realization, it does not come through theories and inferences.

Also the "levels" of enlightenment are WAY too subjective and not entirely measurable on the level I was getting at.

Well actually all kinds of people around the world are having the same kinds of insights.

 

Because even though realization is subjective (if you mean directly realized in one's own experience), these realizations concerns some basic facts of everybody's existence... these facts are the same for everyone.

 

That's why if you investigate, you will realize and experience the exact same things.

I mean how can you tell if one is enlightened?

1) If you are asking 'how can I know if I am enlightened?' Then my answer is, you will no longer have doubts or uncertainties about the nature of reality, the nature of consciousness/mind. You will discover its essence and nature.

 

2) If you are asking 'how do I know if *someone else* is enlightened?' Then my answer is, familiarize yourself with maps of enlightenment (such as the one I showed you) so that you can discern for yourself. For me, I can tell exactly which stage any author is coming from in terms of enlightenment.

 

For example right now, I can tell you who is at Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 4, Stage 5, Stage 6, Stage 7. I can list a few names even right now... but would rather not. Thusness's stages are universal and applies everywhere, that's why I like it. There are also other maps as well, but not as universal as his.

I mean, anyone can read a book and think about things and convince themselves they're "enlightened" but what are the guidelines for judging one who makes such a claim?

Have they realized their true nature?

 

If they say they have, what is it that they have realized? (and this part makes the difference between Thusness Stage 1 to 7).

Edited August 1, 2010 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

[ralis]

To state unequivocally what it is or isn't misses the point. The cosmos, ones' true nature or any phenomenological event can't be quantified semantically.

 

 

ralis

Edited August 1, 2010 by ralis

[三江源]

[ralis]

here it is in more words, from Xabirs section from Norquist:

 

 

 

Which is why Enlightenment isnt enough.

 

 

 

 

There is no refinement inherent within this.

 

So you can have the enlightenment and still be as dysfunctional as ever, you just hold a different relation to the dysfunctionality.

 

 

Excellent point! Enlightenment can and will exasperate any neurotic condition. I have met many enlightenment seeking junkies that are dysfunctional and can never deal with the everyday realities of the world.

 

 

ralis

[xabir2005]

here it is in more words, from Xabirs section from Norquist:

 

 

 

Which is why Enlightenment isnt enough.

 

 

 

 

There is no refinement inherent within this.

 

So you can have the enlightenment and still be as dysfunctional as ever, you just hold a different relation to the dysfunctionality.

You are right. Realization is not enough, because even if you realize Anatta like Stage 5, you may not have overcome the deeper disposition/fetters/defilements/afflictions. Osho, who was at Stage 4, was full of scandals. U.G.Krishnamurti who was like Stage 5 was always angry and shouting, etc.

 

In my understanding: if you reach Thusness Stage 5, you become a Sotapanna (first out of four stages of enlightenment towards Arhantship in traditional Buddhism)

 

A sotapanna has removed the three lower fetters - he no longer doubts the Buddha's teachings especially on Anatta since he has direct realization. He no longer believes in a Self. He no longer attaches himself to useless and meaningless rituals. These are the three fetters he removed. But he has not cut off lust and anger.

 

A once returner has reduced lust and anger.

 

A non returner has removed lust and anger, thus removing the five lower fetters.

 

An arhant has removed the 5 last fetter.

 

As such, as you become closer more and more towards Arhantship, you become more and more impossible to be an asshole.

 

For those who follow Daniel M. Ingram's definition of four paths: I understand his map which has little regard for the traditional ten fetter model, but I do not agree with it as it does not agree with traditional teachings and what I understand from Thusness.

 

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_%28Buddhism%29

Edited August 1, 2010 by xabir2005

[ralis]

You are right. Realization is not enough, because even if you realize Anatta like Stage 5, you may not have overcome the deeper disposition/fetters/defilements/afflictions. Osho, who was at Stage 4, was full of scandals. U.G.Krishnamurti who was like Stage 5 was always angry and shouting, etc.

 

In my understanding: if you reach Thusness Stage 5, you become a Sotapanna (first out of four stages of enlightenment towards Arhantship in traditional Buddhism)

 

A sotapanna has removed the three lower fetters - he no longer doubts the Buddha's teachings especially on Anatta since he has direct realization. He no longer believes in a Self. He no longer attaches himself to useless and meaningless rituals. These are the three fetters he removed. But he has not cut off lust and anger.

 

A once returner has reduced lust and anger.

 

A non returner has removed lust and anger, thus removing the five lower fetters.

 

An arhant has removed the 5 last fetter.

 

As such, as you become closer more and more towards Arhantship, you become more and more impossible to be an asshole.

 

For those who follow Daniel M. Ingram's definition of four paths: I understand his map which has little regard for the traditional ten fetter model, but I do not agree with it as it does not agree with traditional teachings and what I understand from Thusness.

 

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_%28Buddhism%29

 

 

Why have all these so called levels? Aren't these just more constructs?

 

ralis

[xabir2005]

Why have all these so called levels? Aren't these just more constructs?

 

ralis

It is a natural progression in one's direct experience.

 

Imagine being a complete asshole changing into a fetter-less Arhant.

 

Now, that's real change, not just a construct. It's like saying why differentiate an alcoholic from a non-alcoholic, isn't that more constructs? Well, but it's a useful one to tell you where you are.

 

Nevertheless... focus more on the Realization, rather than character development. The fetters naturally drop off into the practice and it is not via trying to modify one's behavior.

 

(though I'm not stopping anyone from trying to improve their behavior and attempt to be nice... just that behavior modification does not lead to enlightenment)

Edited August 1, 2010 by xabir2005

[三江源]

A sotapanna has removed the three lower fetters - he no longer doubts the Buddha's teachings especially on Anatta since he has direct realization. He no longer believes in a Self. He no longer attaches himself to useless and meaningless rituals. These are the three fetters he removed. But he has not cut off lust and anger.

A once returner has reduced lust and anger.

 

A non returner has removed lust and anger, thus removing the five lower fetters.

 

An arhant has removed the 5 last fetter.

As such, as you become closer more and more towards Arhantship, you become more and more impossible to be an asshole.

 

Hi Xabir. Thankyou for your extra info and clarification,I am completely unfamiliar with the language you are using but I totally get the ideas. What interests me is the methods used to reach the stage where it is impossible to be an asshole.

 

Because I really am fed up of being an asshole. And being of a practical nature, I want to know how to get there, which is why practices interest me more than concepts.

 

I reckon the heart is the way. Heart, heart, and more heart. refinement of, opening of, refinement of, opening of, and on and on and on.

 

From a taoist point of view it would be a totally clear energy body, with zero congestion, very strong and refined.

 

That would lead to a deeper enlightenment that just that of the mind.. because the body and mind are one, so if the mind reaches and understanding but the body is full of all kinds of blockages and weaknesses, then obstacles remain.

 

So enlightenment has to be on all levels, and if the primary levels are neglected, so that self awareness/ self knowledge is patchy or overly defended,like simply too large areas remaining unconscious, then one cannot travel far.

 

Just rambling here a bit...

[三江源]

 

 

Imagine being a complete asshole changing into a fetter-less Arhant.

 

 

Just saw this post!

 

this is precisely what I am imagining!

[Lucky7Strikes]

So I guess it's better to understand this as a process. Money doesn't just fall from the sky because you are enlightened.

 

It will though!!

 

Soon enough!!!

 

:lol:

[ralis]

It is a natural progression in one's direct experience.

 

Imagine being a complete asshole changing into a fetter-less Arhant.

 

Now, that's real change, not just a construct. It's like saying why differentiate an alcoholic from a non-alcoholic, isn't that more constructs? Well, but it's a useful one to tell you where you are.

 

Nevertheless... focus more on the Realization, rather than character development. The fetters naturally drop off into the practice and it is not via trying to modify one's behavior.

 

(though I'm not stopping anyone from trying to improve their behavior and attempt to be nice... just that behavior modification does not lead to enlightenment)

 

 

Natural progression implies something that is inherent in the universe. I think it is a group dynamic that was created by Buddhists. A Buddhist map to realize a Buddhist point of view. Not in anyway understanding the real dynamic system of the cosmos.

 

 

ralis

Edited August 1, 2010 by ralis

[xabir2005]

Hi Xabir. Thankyou for your extra info and clarification,I am completely unfamiliar with the language you are using but I totally get the ideas. What interests me is the methods used to reach the stage where it is impossible to be an asshole.

 

Because I really am fed up of being an asshole. And being of a practical nature, I want to know how to get there, which is why practices interest me more than concepts.

 

I reckon the heart is the way. Heart, heart, and more heart. refinement of, opening of, refinement of, opening of, and on and on and on.

 

From a taoist point of view it would be a totally clear energy body, with zero congestion, very strong and refined.

 

That would lead to a deeper enlightenment that just that of the mind.. because the body and mind are one, so if the mind reaches and understanding but the body is full of all kinds of blockages and weaknesses, then obstacles remain.

 

So enlightenment has to be on all levels, and if the primary levels are neglected, so that self awareness/ self knowledge is patchy or overly defended,like simply too large areas remaining unconscious, then one cannot travel far.

 

Just rambling here a bit...

It has to do with how the realizations sink into the deepest depth of consciousness and transforms our subconscious propensities.

 

So there is a process of deepening enlightenment. And this process will remove the manifestation of being 'asshole' from a much deeper root cause... from our deeper dispositions and fetters.

 

How to attain enlightenment? Many kinds of practices... Vipassana... Zen... Dzogchen, Mahamudra... these are just some examples from the Buddhist tradition.

 

There are many other practices that can make us a better person even without becoming enlightened. Which are all fine and useful, but they do not remove the gross manifestation from the root - which means it doesn't truly end craving, anger, ignorance, from its source...

 

Like, even having a good parent will make his children be less of an asshole. But that doesn't mean the child has removed his suffering, craving, anger, ignorance. He just behaves better...

 

Nevertheless Buddhist practice is in fact very helpful and practical even for those who are not enlightened. For example, we teach loving kindness to heal those with hatred, we teach equanimity, compassion, joy, etc. All these are good qualities and creates good karma though they don't exactly result in enlightenment.

 

Then there is mindfulness practice... mindfulness practice allows us to observe our mind moment to moment so that we are not lost in our thoughts and habits, we are aware of our habits as they arise so we have better control of ourselves - rather than always acting out unconsciously.

 

However on a deeper level... mindfulness practice is to allow us to observe reality as it so that we can realize the nature of reality and attain enlightenment.

 

Anyway this is just an example... I am still an asshole sometimes.

 

This is a good article explaining Mindfulness practice: http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/G/Gunaratana/MindfulnessIPE/chapter13.html

Edited August 1, 2010 by xabir2005