The Double Bind

[Guest Ontoneetica]

When it is increase, it's petrified to carry on makeup in flawless condition. But uniform in the most irascible days you do not partake of to make over up painting. You should, however, alter the character and application them a teensy-weensy more economical. If you shell out your vacation on the water, practised instead of you determination be waterproof *************. They are particularly recommended seeking skin inclined to oily.

[Apech]

When it is increase, it's petrified to carry on makeup in flawless condition. But uniform in the most irascible days you do not partake of to make over up painting. You should, however, alter the character and application them a teensy-weensy more economical. If you shell out your vacation on the water, practised instead of you determination be waterproof *********. They are particularly recommended seeking skin inclined to oily.

 

If you read the above post and it made some sense - then you need urgent medical assistance ... it's a spambot I just banned.

[ralis]

If you read the above post and it made some sense - then you need urgent medical assistance ... it's a spambot I just banned.

 

I read that when I woke up this a.m. and thought I was having a bad dream.

[ralis]

Double binds and paradoxes can be remedied by eliminating the "is of identity". By studying and applying Korzybski's 'Science and Sanity', I was able to clarify my thinking and eliminate illusory contradictions. Years of meditating failed to address this problem.

 

'Science and Sanity' introduces the reader to Non Aristotelian thinking which is visual thinking and brings one to eliminate the habit of talking to oneself.

[thelerner]

Posted Today, 11:56 AM

 

View PostOntoneetica, on 28 October 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

When it is increase, it's petrified to carry on makeup in flawless condition. But uniform in the most irascible days you do not partake of to make over up painting. You should, however, alter the character and application them a teensy-weensy more economical. If you shell out your vacation on the water, practised instead of you determination be waterproof *********. They are particularly recommended seeking skin inclined to oily.

 

 

Apech: "If you read the above post and it made some sense - then you need urgent medical assistance ... it's a spambot I just banned. "

 

Damn, it kinda made sense to me. Thought it was a play off on the Double Bind reversal hypothesis obfuscation.

[3bob]

the mind and the bind may go on but you stop.

[Mark Foote]

Double binds and paradoxes can be remedied by eliminating the "is of identity". By studying and applying Korzybski's 'Science and Sanity', I was able to clarify my thinking and eliminate illusory contradictions. Years of meditating failed to address this problem.

 

'Science and Sanity' introduces the reader to Non Aristotelian thinking which is visual thinking and brings one to eliminate the habit of talking to oneself.

 

Hey ralis, "visual thinking"? I've read that animals think in pictures. Also read that the followers of Gautama, the monks, were admired for being just like wild animals.

 

A quick read of the Wikipedia article on Korzybski reveals nothing about "visual thinking".

 

Lately I am cognizant of the feeling of mind, of thought. I sit and I sometimes relax into the activity of the posture, and toward the end of the sitting especially there's a definite feel to the edge of the stretch I find myself in. Sometimes I notice there's a feel to the edge of the thoughts I find myself in, I'm not too good at calming myself down but maybe the visual thinking is like that (and the wild kingdom)?

[Shen Chi Jing]

Just lost the entire post I'd typed, while I was looking up a couple of quotes.

 

Oh well, here are the said quotes anyhow (which are a lot better than what I had to say anyway ):

 

 

"In order for the devotee to see, he must use his imagination."

"Esoteric philosophy never believed in the infallibility and totalitarian omnipotence of Aristotle’s logic."

"Inevitably, if we stop thinking about a problem, it goes away."

"Action free of mental dualism produces the awakening of the consciousness."

Edited November 3, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[ralis]

Hey ralis, "visual thinking"? I've read that animals think in pictures. Also read that the followers of Gautama, the monks, were admired for being just like wild animals.

 

A quick read of the Wikipedia article on Korzybski reveals nothing about "visual thinking".

 

Lately I am cognizant of the feeling of mind, of thought. I sit and I sometimes relax into the activity of the posture, and toward the end of the sitting especially there's a definite feel to the edge of the stretch I find myself in. Sometimes I notice there's a feel to the edge of the thoughts I find myself in, I'm not too good at calming myself down but maybe the visual thinking is like that (and the wild kingdom)?

 

I would recommend reading 'Science and Sanity' as opposed to reading Wikipedia. There are a number of teachers who have based their work on Korzybski.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Intelligence-Self-Liberation-Non-Aristotellian-Realization/dp/1845900618/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319863202&sr=8-1

 

Win Wenger has produced several excellent programs on image streaming i.e, visual thinking.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Factor-Win-Wenger/dp/074352523X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319863409&sr=1-1

[deci belle]

[3bob]

[raimonio]

Hi guys I'm new here.

 

I was just randomly viewing the forum and chose this thread because I didn't know what double bind meant. But when I read about it I had a huge revelation. I think my entire life is double binded! Now guys I haven't read all the material precented here. The theory of double bind had such a huge emotional reaction in me that I felt an urge to communicate with you before reading everything.

 

I've been living a troubled life and somehow I feel that if I get to the bottom of this there will be great reward for me spiritual-wise. So what can you tell me about solutions for these kinds of situations? I mean if all the solutions are bad then what can you do? I feel that not only my childhood, but my current life and the workings of my mind are one big double bind.

 

Example out of my life:

I feel that it is hard for me to communicate with people because I feel that I already know what they are going to answer. Now on the other hand I do have a need for other people. So not communicating is not good, but communication doesn't work. So I'm in a double bind with my need, because when I try to do something about it I feel it doesn't work. So both of the solutions are bad. I'm not able to come up with a solution because all the solutions I come up with are me talking with people about my problem and knowing already what they are going to say, which is the problem! I need something new and this feels like that, something I don't know the answer to.

 

When I look at the situation trough the theory of double bind it makes me think there must be a solution to this problem outside the problem. Or something like that, can't really put into words what I'm thinking. But I hope to get some feedback on this and frankly this time I have no idea what it will be.

[Mark Foote]

 

If you do not do A, you will not (survive, be safe, have fun, etc.). But if you do do A, you will not (survive, be safe, have fun, etc.).

 

 

So if you don't talk to people, you will not (have fun). But if you do talk to people, you will not (have fun). Hmmmm... sounds like that one about the guy hanging from a vine with a tiger above and a 1000-foot drop below, but he discovers it's a strawberry vine and there's a strawberry he can reach...

[ralis]

So if you don't talk to people, you will not (have fun). But if you do talk to people, you will not (have fun). Hmmmm... sounds like that one about the guy hanging from a vine with a tiger above and a 1000-foot drop below, but he discovers it's a strawberry vine and there's a strawberry he can reach...

 

Did you watch the You Tube I posted at the beginning of this thread? 'Full Metal Jacket'. That is classic.

[raimonio]

So what is the solution for a double bind situation? It seems to me you would have to chance the entire situation to have a true solution for it. And because most of the situations are in your head you need to change yourself?

 

ralis if you compare "Science and sanity" to "Creative intelligence and self-liberation" are they on par? Can't find either of them in my library and theres only a kindle version of the latter so I'm going with that. Would be nice to have a comparison though.

[ralis]

So what is the solution for a double bind situation? It seems to me you would have to chance the entire situation to have a true solution for it. And because most of the situations are in your head you need to change yourself?

 

ralis if you compare "Science and sanity" to "Creative intelligence and self-liberation" are they on par? Can't find either of them in my library and theres only a kindle version of the latter so I'm going with that. Would be nice to have a comparison though.

 

'Science and Sanity' should be available through interlibrary loan. 'Creative Intelligence' is a more concise version of Korzybski's work.

 

Robert Dilts has some DVD's on the double bind.

[Mark Foote]

Did you watch the You Tube I posted at the beginning of this thread? 'Full Metal Jacket'. That is classic.

ok, so I watched a few minutes of one of the clips from 'Full Metal Jacket'- the clip didn't just play, Warner Bros. has messed with it. Don't think the clip I saw had to do with double-binds, unfortunately!

 

Reread Drew's piece about his master's and all, and I agree with him that Western science is strong on communicable descriptions of relationships, and with the right vocabulary might serve as a vehicle for people to set up the experiences described in the Eastern teachings. While it may be that the frontiers of Western science provide a ready-made vehicle, I tend toward simple anatomy and kinesthesiology, and the insights of the alternative Western hands-on healers (Feldenkrais, Rolfe, and Upledger, to name a few).

 

I made a description of shikantaza this year, it went like this:

 

Dogen said: "To study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self."

 

Simply by being where we are, we can come to forget the self. The sense of place engenders an ability to feel, and each thing we feel enters into the sense of place- even before we know it.

 

This being where we are with each thing, even before we know it, is shikantaza.

 

(Zazen)

 

 

Now to my mind, each thing we feel entering into the sense of place, and the sense of place generating the ability to feel, is my fractal nature unfolding in real time. As to how I find real time, it's not really up to me, it's waking up and falling asleep which is always just beyond me:

 

Lately I've been writing for friends about waking up and falling asleep, about the role of the sense of place in waking up and falling asleep. If I can bring forward my sense of location and relax, then I can wake up or fall asleep; the trick is, the sense of location tends to move as I wake up or fall asleep.

 

These days I'm happiest when I can feel my action being generated from the place I find myself in, from the place and the things that enter into the place even before I know it. I can say that my sense of place is freed to move when I have an attraction or aversion to something I feel, and the witness of that attraction or aversion enters into my sense of place; that's how I find myself waking up or falling asleep, in the midst of my activity.

 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa on Zazen).

 

Because waking up and falling asleep is just beyond me, finding real time is a double-bind; we are in real time, we cannot find real time. Good morning, where am I! Where am I, good night!

Edited November 2, 2011 by Mark Foote

[Birch]

That's interesting Mark.

I know that if I travel a lot (not vacation, where it's the opposite) I prefer to stay in places that pretty much look the same all over, to avoid that 'Where the hell am I?' moment that can really give me a start upon waking.

 

When dreaming, there are also points at which it's not obvious to me that I am dreaming. So I sort of 'wake up' inside the dream and go 'phew it's a dream, this is ok then'. Sometimes it takes a bit of effort, a struggle ensues to 'wake up' inside the dream. So I'm wondering if we tacitly 'know' we are dreaming and just go ahead with it (because otherwise we'd wake up).

[ralis]

ok, so I watched a few minutes of one of the clips from 'Full Metal Jacket'- the clip didn't just play, Warner Bros. has messed with it. Don't think the clip I saw had to do with double-binds, unfortunately!

 

Reread Drew's piece about his master's and all, and I agree with him that Western science is strong on communicable descriptions of relationships, and with the right vocabulary might serve as a vehicle for people to set up the experiences described in the Eastern teachings. While it may be that the frontiers of Western science provide a ready-made vehicle, I tend toward simple anatomy and kinesthesiology, and the insights of the alternative Western hands-on healers (Feldenkrais, Rolfe, and Upledger, to name a few).

 

I made a description of shikantaza this year, it went like this:

 

 

 

Now to my mind, each thing we feel entering into the sense of place, and the sense of place generating the ability to feel, is my fractal nature unfolding in real time. As to how I find real time, it's not really up to me, it's waking up and falling asleep which is always just beyond me:

 

 

 

Because waking up and falling asleep is just beyond me, finding real time is a double-bind; we are in real time, we cannot find real time. Good morning, where am I! Where am I, good night!

 

 

I will let you figure out the double binds in this movie.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m_1hglRkPk&feature=related

[3bob]

So what is the solution for a double bind situation? It seems to me you would have to chance the entire situation to have a true solution for it. And because most of the situations are in your head you need to change yourself?

 

ralis if you compare "Science and sanity" to "Creative intelligence and self-liberation" are they on par? Can't find either of them in my library and theres only a kindle version of the latter so I'm going with that. Would be nice to have a comparison though.

 

The solution is the "middle way" which no one owns nor can really claim as just their own... although certain schools may make it sound like they own it and all that that may imply, they still don't. Just as no one owns Om.............

[ralis]

It was Dr. Gregory Bateson in 'Steps to An Ecology of Mind' that he discussed the double bind.

 

"Do not do....or I will punish you"

"If you do not do....I will punish you".

 

What the double bind entails, is that one must choose an outcome, where both outcomes are unpleasant. Kubrick's 'Full Metal Jacket' is a classic study of that scenario.

[3bob]

Thus: remove your hang nail and it will hurt,

do not remove your hang nail and it will hurt,

but if you suck on your toe you will look funny

and someone will laugh, which will start the whole world laughing...