Why dismiss entheogenic experiences?

[Old Man Contradiction]

Why do you dismiss the entheogenic experiences caused by psychotropic substances?

 

I don't understand why spiritualists warn against the use of these plants and substances.

 

Is it bad for energy, psychology, karma? Are the experiences invalid/valid?

 

How and why?

Edited August 1, 2010 by Old Man Contradiction

[Taomeow]

Why do you dismiss the entheogenic experiences caused by psychotropic substances?

 

I don't understand why spiritualists warn against the use of these plants and substances.

 

Is it bad for energy, psychology, karma? Are the experiences invalid/valid?

 

How and why?

 

To expand consciousness, one needs to have expandable consciousness. Blow helium into an empty balloon and it will fly. Blow it into an empty beer can and it will explode.

 

Many people instinctively know the extent to which their consciousness will stretch under pressure.

 

Besides, a whole course of Terence McKenna's lectures is available online, and being the most eloquent man who ever lived, or perhaps a reincarnation of Demosthenes, he can answer your question even better.

[Old Man Contradiction]

Thanks for the reply Taomeow. I'm well acquainted with Terence McKenna. He is really really smart. I don't know if my beliefs reside in the same pocket as his all of the time, but none the less he is someone that I love hearing talk, and someone I respect.

 

I am more interested right now in why people warn AGAINST entheogens. I've seen on multiple occasions people on this forum say that it messes up your energy, it's a fake spiritual experience, or it crystallizes and cracks your energetic body. I want to see people actually explain these warnings because they do not make any sense to me.

[Marblehead]

Hi Old Man,

 

I have no statistical evidence to present to you. But I do have first hand observational evidence regarding the subject.

 

For example, alcohol. Consumed in moderation and always in control of the amount consumed I see as no real big problem. However, alcohol is very addictive. My father and one of my younger brothers both killed themselves because of their addiction to alcohol.

 

While in the Army I saw so many fairly good people ruin their career because they allowed themselves to become addicted to drugs or alcohol.

 

We all know alcohol can be very addictive. So can most drugs. If it is our goal in life to become free of attachments why in the world would anyone partake in an activity that attaches them to a mind-altering drug? That would be totally counter-productive.

 

If we wish to be free of desires (or at least minimize our desires) why would we desire to create a desire that becomes a habit, a crutch?

 

So now I will shut up and have a glass of rice wine.

 

Peace & Love!

[Mark Foote]

Why do you dismiss the entheogenic experiences caused by psychotropic substances?

 

I don't understand why spiritualists warn against the use of these plants and substances.

 

Is it bad for energy, psychology, karma? Are the experiences invalid/valid?

 

How and why?

 

No answers, but more questions!-

 

Seems like the better psychotropics were in the New World (so-called)- peyote and psilocybin mushrooms, and the leafy one with the twenty-minute high whose name I forget. Of course, there was also datura. In the Old World, it was, what- belladonna, amanita?

 

The teaching of the Gautamid probably could not have come about without the emergence in India of an alienated middle class- the theory of Rhys-Davids, founder of the Pali Text Society, that. Not the same people who were the shamans and the gifted seers of the indigenous peoples, the healers who used psychotropic plants and shared them as appropriate. Just a thought.

[Astral_Anima]

I think this depends HEAVILY on one's goals. In terms of spiritualism...there just SO much "stuff" that people label "spiritual" that it lacks concrete meaning.

 

The first thing that should be observed is the difference in states of mind between "under influence" and sober. If your goal is to be of "one mind" then anything that is mind altering would be a hindrance. But lets say you observe that when you're "high" (i'll use this term for now), you feel like you're more creative and spiritual so you come up with ideas, concepts, maybe you write a song or something. Then you observe your thoughts when you're sober. If you disagree with your thoughts when you were high, or perhaps don't think what you wrote was creative or of value then you can assume that when you're high you just THINK you're deep and creative when in reality you're not. It may change your perception of things temporarily but it doesn't change what you REALLY think of it. However if you notice that your thoughts while high make alot of sense upon observing them sober, then what you're doing could indeed be opening up to some kind of greater understanding. The problem with mind-altering drugs is that if you want to be "high" all the time...it's just not natural (and I know that doesn't really mean anything). I mean it just doesn't seem worth it to be dependent on a substance for your happiness or contentment. I mean why not just take antidepressants? Then you probably wouldn't have a need to be spiritual because you'd already feel happy and enlightened. Spiritualism grows out of discontentment, just like any other pursuit. Obviously you're trying to change something within yourself. I'm not going to say using drugs is "bad" or "wrong" because if it gives you want you want then who am I to say it's bad. However try to think of how practical it is to try to be high all the time. Science can tell you that when you're high certain parts of your brain are more active and others are less active. This means that while you may feel more spiritual and whatever for awhile you'll find other flaws in that mindset. You may find that you're ability to judge/discern is inhibited (when you're high activity in that part of the brain is lower than when sober) and you may become unhappy with that and decide you want to go back to being sober.

 

Personally I think the trick is to first be of "one mind" then actively attack the problems you find(in that mindstate) one by one. What is your goal in spiritual practice? Why do you do it? Once you can answer this HONESTLY you can find some of the problems you want to change. Then you should find methods that claim to solve that problem and explore such a method until you have found one that makes sense and seems to work.

 

Of course I've ranted on beyond the OP's question, however I do think it's important for everyone to consider why they do what they do. It's helped me and many people I know at least.

 

-Astral

[Taomeow]

Thanks for the reply Taomeow. I'm well acquainted with Terence McKenna. He is really really smart. I don't know if my beliefs reside in the same pocket as his all of the time, but none the less he is someone that I love hearing talk, and someone I respect.

 

I am more interested right now in why people warn AGAINST entheogens. I've seen on multiple occasions people on this forum say that it messes up your energy, it's a fake spiritual experience, or it crystallizes and cracks your energetic body. I want to see people actually explain these warnings because they do not make any sense to me.

Yup... I brought up McKenna because his answer to the sprituality/entheogens interactions is radical enough to eliminate all further guesswork if you believe his model --

 

and his model happens to be rigorously scientific on top of being entheogenically experiential --

 

and is corroborated by so much evidence from so many disciplines that no one area of anyone's expertise can remain in doubt if its narrow specialists were to go to the trouble of interdisciplinary study (the way McKenna did) --

 

that overwhelmingly it leads to one inevitable conclusion:

 

entheogens ARE spirituality, they are what breathed the spirit of divine consciousness into our hairy ancestors, they are what has shaped our brain and our psyche, in fact they shaped our whole species and gave it hundreds of thousands of years of the golden age (until someone/something else intervened),

 

and they are in disfavor today precisely because someone/something intervened to block, thwart, reshape, transmogrify the human spirit. So to your "why," here's a "that's why" spanning some ten to fifteen thousand years of our species' recent unfortunate history...

[Martial Development]

Do you think the history of tobacco over the past 400 years is relevant? Suppose that pattern were repeated with any of a dozen other psychotropic substances--who would profit and who would lose? Is this reason enough to discourage their use in public, even if a different set of guidelines is used in private?

[Taomeow]

Do you think the history of tobacco over the past 400 years is relevant? Suppose that pattern were repeated with any of a dozen other psychotropic substances--who would profit and who would lose? Is this reason enough to discourage their use in public, even if a different set of guidelines is used in private?

 

Um... tobacco is not currently used, a chemical blend of 2000+ toxic additives is what has been substituted, "poison the well" is an old and efficient trick. I am reading an Encyclopedia of Native American Shamanism currently, and I'm discovering the primary use of tobacco before the white man. It was used to deflect hurricanes.

 

Oh, and for healing. This I experienced in Peru. The shaman had a cigar he made himself of the wild tobacco of the rain forest, and he used the smoke to build a bridge between the land of the living and the land of the dead. When you journey into the lower world (for healing, of yourself or someone else, since parts of your soul, or the soul of someone in need of help, are stuck in that horrible place and need to be brought back), you get lost easily. It is very dark and makes no spacial sense and confuses all of your senses. The bridge helps you find the way back.

 

So are we talking human spirituality or the lying, sleigh-of-hand corporate games when we talk "tobacco?" You know that tobacco corporations' CEOs are on every board of directors of every major hospital and medical school, shaping the policies and the decision-making processes? Why the f... one might wonder?.. Nothing is what it seems. There's no medical/pharma establishment vs. big tobacco anymore than there's republicans vs. democrats. It's all smoke and mirrors... Don't buy what THEY sell when they sell you "the perils of tobacco." It's not tobacco to begin with. And they are the ones who control the perils they dish out. F... and f... and triple f...

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Well, it's a difficult question. Basically, for me, if I rely on them too much, I am not letting my own spiritual muscles develop.

People who read energy and auras often speak of the tears in the energy field after the use of entheogens. I do not know if this applies to "natural" entheogens vs. manmade.

 

Gnosis Magazine (which has lamentably ceased publication-it was a terrific magazine and incredibly well done) had a whole issue devoted to psychedelics and spirituality. Worth getting. Actually, it's worth getting a set of back issues while you still can. It was that good.

[Birch]

"tears in the energy field"

 

Is this a good or a bad thing? Not being psychic I can't say.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&section=search&do=quick_search&search_app=core&fromsearch=1

 

Ayahuasca gets 189 hits under the taobums search engine.

[fizix]

Prematurely opening the third eye chakra or prematurely awakening kundalini from doing psychedelics (can usually only occur when one has already been a spiritual practitioner and then uses psychedelics) is a very dangerous thing for many people, on the side of the coin as a curse, rather than a blessing. Premature 'enlightenment'/spiritual knowledge is a dangerous thing, for such things must come in long strides rather than 6 hr highs: hello 40 year long Dark Night of the Soul. Ethneogenic experiences are not false spiritual experiences, but they are not spiritual experiences of the highest nature; they are simply sacred teachers of divinity, not to be attached to.

 

Another concern of danger: addiction. Try psychedelics; get your mind opened to truths, don't practice the truths that have been subconsciously ingrained yet consciously unaccepted; get addicted to heroin (the false One, physical incarnation of evil, left-hand path) your first hit, due to the nature of the heroin high (pseudo-enlightenment) also in part to the accompanying depression of living in the Dark Night/SOul.. Never try heroin, or any hard drugs for that matter; be extremely cautious even when experimenting with the softies.

Edited August 2, 2010 by fizix

[Birch]

"Never try heroin, or any hard drugs for that matter"

 

I remember making that pact with myself a long time ago. Then of course I went searching around for some other stuff (knowledge, power, pleasure and "enlightenment" )

 

Now, had I actually gone with the H, I might be more messed up, but at least I'd have an idea as to the "why"

 

Peace and Love! (To borrow from MH;-))

[Martial Development]

Just published: Terence McKenna for Dummies

[Old Man Contradiction]

"THINK[ing] you're deep and creative" is definitely a pitfall of many of newcomers to not only (but maybe especially) psychedelic enthusiasts, but of many "spiritual" philosophies. The really deep psychedelic experiences (that I have only knocked on the door of, never entered though) are of the such that there is no "you" to think anything. Here is a great post by an old-timer named ChinaCat, who was part of the dead family. This post includes his, and one other person's account of taking a "thumbprint" of LSD, which is the mass (and effect) equivalent of several hundreds of hits, or multiple sheets, or multiple vials. We're talking 100s of 100ug hits.

 

The Thumbprint

 

Here is a post by the late great "Hippie3", who recently passed away. This is his detail of one of his Psilocybin experiences. Note: From what I could tell, his spiritual philosophy was of a Jungian nature. Post #7:

 

Hip3's Psilly Trip

 

I think it's good reference to see the anecdote of unprofessional authorship. Very interesting reads.

 

What is the best of Terence Mckenna's books that hone in on his theories of the entheogenic experience?

 

Also, nature's hallucinogens are not anymore addictive than leaf lettuce.

 

Fizix: I am willing to believe that the third eye exists. But I am wondering as to why it would be harmful to open it? What do you mean by "prematurely" in context of opening the third eye?

[voidisyinyang]

"THINK[ing] you're deep and creative" is definitely a pitfall of many of newcomers to not only (but maybe especially) psychedelic enthusiasts, but of many "spiritual" philosophies. The really deep psychedelic experiences (that I have only knocked on the door of, never entered though) are of the such that there is no "you" to think anything. Here is a great post by an old-timer named ChinaCat, who was part of the dead family. This post includes his, and one other person's account of taking a "thumbprint" of LSD, which is the mass (and effect) equivalent of several hundreds of hits, or multiple sheets, or multiple vials. We're talking 100s of 100ug hits.

 

The Thumbprint

 

Here is a post by the late great "Hippie3", who recently passed away. This is his detail of one of his Psilocybin experiences. Note: From what I could tell, his spiritual philosophy was of a Jungian nature. Post #7:

 

Hip3's Psilly Trip

 

I think it's good reference to see the anecdote of unprofessional authorship. Very interesting reads.

 

What is the best of Terence Mckenna's books that hone in on his theories of the entheogenic experience?

 

Also, nature's hallucinogens are not anymore addictive than leaf lettuce.

 

Fizix: I am willing to believe that the third eye exists. But I am wondering as to why it would be harmful to open it? What do you mean by "prematurely" in context of opening the third eye?

 

Too bad the CIA was the first to have LSD mass produced -- and then used it on people for MKUltra torture....

 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/01/08/brainwashing-suit.html

 

http://boingboing.net/2010/03/11/french-village-went.html

 

CIA spikes a whole village in France with LSD....

Edited August 2, 2010 by drewhempel

[voidisyinyang]

[Gerard]

Why do you dismiss the entheogenic experiences caused by psychotropic substances?

 

I don't understand why spiritualists warn against the use of these plants and substances.

 

Is it bad for energy, psychology, karma? Are the experiences invalid/valid?

 

How and why?

 

My reasons:

 

1. Cause attachment (main one).

2. Don't last long

3. Don't make you more spiritual, hence do not trigger internal alchemy

4. Don't make you wiser (sila)

5. Don't improve your concentration level with long term effects (samadhi)

6. Don't make you wiser (prajna)

 

It's preferably following the long and painful process of Eastern spiritual methods as it build character and what you gain stays with you aeons to come.

[fizix]

My reasons:

 

1. Cause attachment (main one).

2. Don't last long

3. Don't make you more spiritual, hence do not trigger internal alchemy

4. Don't make you wiser (sila)

5. Don't improve your concentration level with long term effects (samadhi)

6. Don't make you wiser (prajna)

 

It's preferably following the long and painful process of Eastern spiritual methods as it build character and what you gain stays with you aeons to come.

What experience with ethneogens do you have?

[Old Man Contradiction]

My reasons:

 

1. Cause attachment (main one).

2. Don't last long

3. Don't make you more spiritual, hence do not trigger internal alchemy

4. Don't make you wiser (sila)

5. Don't improve your concentration level with long term effects (samadhi)

6. Don't make you wiser (prajna)

 

It's preferably following the long and painful process of Eastern spiritual methods as it build character and what you gain stays with you aeons to come.

 

You bring up good points. But I have some questions about them.

 

1. It's true they can cause attachment, but meditation and qigong are not exempt from this either. Isn't it fair to say it depends on the character of the individual whether they let the ego attach itself to any of these methods?

 

2. True, the experience doesn't last long. But many people that haven't experienced psychedelics since the 70's report that the change that occurred during even just ONE singular experience, still affects them today. Refer to my previous link to "ChinaCat72" and his post. Also note that the change occurred at a deeper level than beliefs and the ego.

 

3. Please define your term "more spiritual". I also do not know very much about alchemy.

 

4. Arguably entheogens can help an individual access wisdom. Refer to Hippie3 or ChinaCat's experiences.

 

5. Not so arguably testing done on UDV members that have had long term exposure to ayahuasca vs. matched subjects without any experience with ayahuasca tested higher for levels of concentration. The test can be seen in Bill Eagle's Psychedelic Science, and more information can be found here. Interestingly the ayahuasca subjects found to have higher concentration of 5-HT sites without resistance to serotonin. This has amazingly optimistic implications.

 

 

Living through heavy entheogenic experiences has never been reported as fun or easy. This is an important point, because this distinguishes between thrill-seekers and seekers of truth. Losing your ego is difficult and painful, but it builds character. Same thing with eastern methods, but again, it all depends on the subtleties of the individual. Many eastern practitioners subversively use their methods to strengthen the ego, just as do entheogen enthusiasts.

 

I believe both can be used to help one person, and that is my argument.

[passenger1980]

I agree with Old Man Contradiction. Addiction and attachment comes from the person not the object. There are infinite things that cause attachment during the course of a day in this modern society. Lust is even a burning desire that we feel naturally in our bodies.

 

Anyway, to add something to the discussion, i could agree that drugs don't make you wiser instantly or improve your spirituality, but they do open the door for many people that are too close minded, mundane and ordinary and can't seem to grasp any sense of a different reality or experience. Many people believe in god and call themselves religious but they certainly don't know what spirituality is.

 

Also, certain drugs like some of you mentioned are clearly more benefitial for mankind than alcohol, nicotine, prescriptions, etc.

[gendao]

My reasons:

 

1. Cause attachment (main one).

2. Don't last long

3. Don't make you more spiritual, hence do not trigger internal alchemy

4. Don't make you wiser (sila)

5. Don't improve your concentration level with long term effects (samadhi)

6. Don't make you wiser (prajna)

 

It's preferably following the long and painful process of Eastern spiritual methods as it build character and what you gain stays with you aeons to come.

Yea, I'm not too impressed by momentary glimpses anymore, either.

 

What I seek now are real alchemical changes and abilities.

 

Now, if anyone can tell me of such masters who have attained sustained abilities (alchemical stages, healing ability, etc) by using entheogens...then let's hear it???

 

Otherwise, it seems like these entheogens tend to appeal more to spiritual tourists who don't want to put any real effort in and don't induce any lasting change. Most of the ones I know of did it through thousands of hours of sober sweat equity - not drugs.

Edited August 2, 2010 by vortex

[effilang]

When i smoke weed, i go into this laboratory, sort of like a class and i am the student. Every time i am high, i simply sit in the chair and look at the blackboard to see what Mr. Universe is chalking up for me.

 

I learn and absorb a lot of information while in this state and when i am back down to earth i can meditate and everything i have learned and seen facilitates a deeper more profound meditation with a much broader understanding.

 

I cannot however meditate WHILE i am high, but i can certainly do a lot of exploring and learning.

 

And although i am a very changed person after each trip by the things i have learned, i can only apply the knowledge in a clear sober meditation.

 

I hear a lot of people get high on stuff and then go to meditate, me, i simply can't concentrate, my mind gets gang-banged by the universe and i have way too much information to process to even consider meditation.

 

My mind expands so much when i am high that i feel it will physically explode because it can't contain the information, but every time i come back i realize the previous expansion literally prepared me for absorbing even more information on the next trip.

 

To the main question O_o .... why dismiss?

 

If the argument is that information or states attained through stimulation from entheogenic substances is artificial, then that is the same as saying that all the teachings in the world are just as false. But aren't they? - What is real, until felt by our own senses?

 

Just because we see it or hear it, does not mean we have personally attained it or understand it.

 

All the theory and texts mean nothing if you can't reach the experience on YOUR own. As far as i am concerned the use of entheogens is something external and should not be put in the same category as attainments derived from clear minded and sober meditation, under which your body and mind remain in your full control.

 

Having said that. I can see and feel the sun, but i am yet beyond it's glory, and although i may dream of being the sun, when i come back down to earth i will still have much work to do to. But if i do become the sun one day... i will not be surprised : )

 

Sort of like foreseeing a future event, when it happens, you're not as astounded as everyone else who didn't.

Edited August 2, 2010 by effilang

[Taomeow]

Yea, I'm not too impressed by momentary glimpses anymore, either.

 

What I seek now are real alchemical changes and abilities.

 

Now, if anyone can tell me of such masters who have attained sustained abilities (alchemical stages, healing ability, etc) by using entheogens...then let's hear it???

 

Otherwise, it seems like these entheogens tend to appeal more to spiritual tourists who don't want to put any real effort in and don't induce any lasting change. Most of the ones I know of did it through thousands of hours of sober sweat equity - not drugs.

 

 

First of, let's please not confuse drugs and entheogens. Drugs are man-made poisons specifically designed to shrink rather than expand human consciousness. They shrink it to the size of a fleeting glimpse, to the size of an addiction, to the size of total moronity, of smaller and smaller and more and more shrunken abilities.

 

Entheogens are not man-made and none of the caveats apply -- experiences they offer are no more fleeting than being born, or getting a Ph.D. in the science of your choice, or being converted to a particular religious denomination. Secondly, not only are they not addictive, they often eliminate a pre-existing drug addiction in a single experience. They are the ultimate antidote to addictive behaviors too, not just to addictive substances. And thirdly, the CIA doesn't use them.

 

These are the markers of an entheogen... by the way, weed as used in the West does not qualify, due to the fleeting and superficial nature of its impact... natural it is, but an entheogen it is not. So whatever "insights" folks come up with who don't know the difference are invariably laughable. It's like taking a shot of bourbon and then telling people you've drunk the blood of Jesus Christ from the Holy Grail and voicing your opinion about its nutritional value or lack thereof.

 

As for masters who attained "abilities" by using entheogens -- read up on shamanism, the human race's true spiritual home. Also read Opening the Dragon's Gate for a few interesting episodes... I know more, but more I won't tell. No master acquires "abilities" due to entheogens only and exclusively, but there's been few who ever did without.