Why dismiss entheogenic experiences?

[Encephalon]

First of, let's please not confuse drugs and entheogens. Drugs are man-made poisons specifically designed to shrink rather than expand human consciousness. They shrink it to the size of a fleeting glimpse, to the size of an addiction, to the size of total moronity, of smaller and smaller and more and more shrunken abilities.

 

Entheogens are not man-made and none of the caveats apply -- experiences they offer are no more fleeting than being born, or getting a Ph.D. in the science of your choice, or being converted to a particular religious denomination. Secondly, not only are they not addictive, they often eliminate a pre-existing drug addiction in a single experience. They are the ultimate antidote to addictive behaviors too, not just to addictive substances. And thirdly, the CIA doesn't use them.

 

These are the markers of an entheogen... by the way, weed as used in the West does not qualify, due to the fleeting and superficial nature of its impact... natural it is, but an entheogen it is not. So whatever "insights" folks come up with who don't know the difference are invariably laughable. It's like taking a shot of bourbon and then telling people you've drunk the blood of Jesus Christ from the Holy Grail and voicing your opinion about its nutritional value or lack thereof.

 

As for masters who attained "abilities" by using entheogens -- read up on shamanism, the human race's true spiritual home. Also read Opening the Dragon's Gate for a few interesting episodes... I know more, but more I won't tell. No master acquires "abilities" due to entheogens only and exclusively, but there's been few who ever did without.

 

Well said. I would include as essential reading "Cleansing the Doors of Perception: The Religious Significance of Entheogenic Plants and Chemicals" by Huston Smith, and, if you're in a patient mood, Smith's youtube 30 min. interview on the subject.

 

 

The following is a publisher's blurb for the book:

 

From Publishers Weekly

Religion scholar and "missionary kid" Smith discovered psychedelic drugs in good company, alongside Timothy Leary and the crowd at Harvard that experimented with LSD, mescaline and psilocybin in the 1960s. In Cleansing the Doors of Perception (the title a play on Aldous Huxley's cult classic The Doors of Perception), Smith argues that while psychedelics can illuminate the religious life, these drugs can not induce religious lives. Therefore, Smith concludes, religion must be more than "a string of experiences." If drugs cannot replace religion, however, they can aid the religious life, when psychedelics are used in the context of a larger religious commitmentAas with the Native American use of peyote. But this provocative inquiry into the relationship between drugs and religion is overshadowed by Smith's unreflective strolls down memory laneAsuch as his description of the Good Friday experiment of 1962, when a group of Harvardites popped psychedelics and attended Good Friday services. Smith says it was one of the most spiritually meaningful days of his life.

 

I for one am grateful for my few psychedelic experiences. They were always and consistently spiritual, positive, and enjoyable, so there was definitely a recreational side to their use (ooooh... heavy confession....) but for some, as Smith says, one trip may be enough to shatter limiting beliefs and render a broader identification with reality and the interdependent fabric with which it is spun - spunt - spunned!

Edited August 3, 2010 by Blasto

[goldisheavy]

Why do you dismiss the entheogenic experiences caused by psychotropic substances?

 

I don't understand why spiritualists warn against the use of these plants and substances.

 

Is it bad for energy, psychology, karma? Are the experiences invalid/valid?

 

How and why?

 

It's bad for a number of reasons, but there are positive aspects.

 

It's bad because people who take drugs believe in substances, and having drugs produce a change in consciousness only reinforces an incorrect belief that substance is something ultimately real.

 

It's also bad because it puts the spiritual experience into a bad context. Suppose the experience was positive and otherwise would be informative and enlightening. But because it was induced by drugs, it is easily dismissed as "Oh, it was just drugs." In other words, a drug provides the context of "less genuine" and "less authentic" since a drug is an external agent. So if you want to lift some weight and you drink something that allows you to lift that weight, you can't really be proud of lifting it, since it wasn't you who lifted the weight, it was the liquid. The bulk of the credit goes to the enabling liquid. That's why when you have, what would otherwise be a good experience, the wrong context disempowers, declaws, castrates that experience.

 

Drugs are also bad if they become a dependency. If you begin to think that only through LSD can you experience such and such, or only through hash, and so on. If this becomes your thought, you are screwed.

 

But drugs can have positive effects. Something that might otherwise require years of training can be accessed with a pill. And even though drugs provide a bad context for the experience, nonetheless sometimes the experience is able to overcome its own context and to challenge your worldview in a way you can't later dismiss by saying "oh, it was just drugs, let's forget it and move on." That's not a guarantee, but it's a possibility. So drugs do have some positive possibilities, but it's a craps shoot.

 

But if there is a person who can neutralize the context of the drugs being a substance or an external agent, this downside can be mitigated and then drugs can be completely positive. So for example, if someone introduces LSD as your own mind's manifestation and as insubstantial, this will set a much better context -- but for most people who take LSD such a guide is unavailable. The shamans of olde thought of magic mushrooms as spirits, see, so their context was sacred. We think of the same mushrooms as substance, thus our context is junk. Plus, we think of drugs as consumers, as just another thing you consume, like a latte. That's a bad context.

 

So I hope this helps. So drugs are not absolutely bad, they are simply bad for the absolute majority of people in our times.

Edited August 3, 2010 by goldisheavy

[fizix]

Mighty, there is just so much overgeneralizing in this thread its ridiculous... "people who do drugs are this or that; drugs are this this and this" and yet so obvious it is how little actual EXPERIENCE with substances do people have, yet that does not stop them from ranting on like impeccable scholars. Any drug can be a learning experience, but learn and move on, it is my belief that one cannot exist in harmony with the Tao and have reservations for doing drugs, the sage serves others, not himself.

[Gerard]

...Now, if anyone can tell me of such masters who have attained sustained abilities (alchemical stages, healing ability, etc) by using entheogens...then let's hear it???

 

Agree 100%

 

COME FORWARD, WILL YA!

 

I like the Buddha's path, hard work but what you gain stays with you. You can't beat hard work. The rest is like when you use steroids to climb the mountain faster. You are only a cheat and certainly what you gained won't stay with you long enough.

 

Btw, those substances won't provide you the third jewel: prajna.

 

 

Let's remind the OP about the 10 qualities to Buddhahood:

 

1. Perfection in giving (dana-parami)

 

2. Morality (sila)

 

3. Renunciation (nekkhamma)

 

4. Wisdom (prajna)

 

5. Energy (viriya)

 

6. Patience (khanti)

 

7. Truthfulness (sacca)

 

8. Resolution (adhitthana)

 

9. Loving-kindness (metta)

 

10. Equanimity (upekkha)

 

 

Explanation:

 

sentient beings destined for destined for Buddhahood are concerned about the welfare of living beings, not tolerating the suffering of beings, wishing long duration to the higher states of happiness of beings, and being impartial and just to all beings, therefore:

 

1. They provide things (dana) to all beings so that they may be happy, without investigating whether they are worthy or not.

 

2. By avoiding to do them any harm, they observe morality (sila).

 

3. In order to bring morality to perfection, they train themselves in renunciation (nekkhamma).

 

4. In order to understand clearly what is beneficial and injurious to beings, they purify their wisdom (pana).

 

5. For the sake of the welfare and happiness of others they constantly exert their energy (viriya).

 

6. Though having become heroes through utmost energy, they are nevertheless full of patience (khanti) toward the manifold failings of beings .

 

7. Once they have promised to give or do something, they do not break their promise (thruthfulness, sacca).

 

8. With unshakable resolution (adhitthana) they work for the weal and welfare of beings.

 

9. With unshakable kindness (metta) they are helpful to all.

 

10. By reason of their equanimity (upekkha) they do not expect anything in return.

 

 

There are degrees of difference amongst some of these values but as a general rule of thumb they do work.

 

 

Drug usage won't provide you with those qualities, for sure.

 

We are talking about spiritual matters, not mind-altering substances. We are trying to tame the mind and overcome its insatiable lust for anything. We are trying to keep the door open not decorate it with fancy rainbow colours. Because as you can see the mind is the door to the divine-nirvana, pure eternal bliss where the ego won't seek refuge. We leave the ego behind and purify the spirit. Drug experiences won't give you that.

 

Using power plants for research purposes, healing and shamanic experiences has got nothing to do with the ego-trip of reaching a cool altered state; but again I don't think the main purpose of this thread relates to any of first three areas.

 

Still I think liberation is the most noble goal. But again, each to their own as there are many levels of enlightenment and kinds of players.

Edited August 3, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Mark Foote]

 

If the argument is that information or states attained through stimulation from entheogenic substances is artificial, then that is the same as saying that all the teachings in the world are just as false. But aren't they? - What is real, until felt by our own senses?

 

Just because we see it or hear it, does not mean we have personally attained it or understand it.

 

All the theory and texts mean nothing if you can't reach the experience on YOUR own. As far as i am concerned the use of entheogens is something external and should not be put in the same category as attainments derived from clear minded and sober meditation, under which your body and mind remain in your full control.

 

 

There you go!

 

I would add that I believe in cosmic serendipity, and argue that my body and mind are never actually under my full control. I would agree that without personal experience of something transcendent, life seems pretty meaningless, and yet the transcendent doesn't necessarily provide meaning; it's the return to transcendence in daily life that necessitates making sense of the induction of the experience.

 

I read "Battle for the Mind" by Sargent when I was in elementary school, what an eye-opener for a 6th grader! It's about the common thread that runs through brain-washing and religious conversion. Turns out you can change a person's entire belief structure if you put them under enough stress, and the way the belief structure changes is the thing most folks guess wrong about: it's not a gradual thing, it's sudden, the person who is subjected to the stress and the suggestion just wakes up believing everything they've been told. I bring this up because it's important to recognize that the brilliance of religious conversion, or perhaps even kensho may be due more to a hidden facet of human psychology than transcendence. Psychedelics have tremendous impact, but it generally wears off, and where it doesn't or where that isn't accepted as the natural course of things I would be suspicious.

 

To bring transcendence into daily life requires that we become familiar with trance, and trance states, apart from religious or political conversion and apart from psychedelics I think. At the same time, as the Gautamid said so long ago, "for whatever you think it is (with regard to the trance-states), it is other". That in a lecture about not priding oneself on the attainment of trance-states, from one who taught the induction of trance as the constant companion of well-being.

[Old Man Contradiction]

Experiencing death is arguably the most challenging thing in life to do. Spritual plants kill you, and than let you come back. The hardship of being buddhist does not hold a candle to the struggle of death IMO. It is naive to think that these plants are just a joy ride.

 

 

Once again, read this. It is an account of an older gentleman, I believe in his late 60's now. This is a great representation of the value that can be found via symbiosis with plants. His eloquent language transmits a real sense of heart about this issue.

 

Every quality you listed can be the product of an intelligent person experiencing ego-death through entheogenic plants. Also, these qualities can be retained impermanently, depending on the individual. My only knowledge of buddhism comes from one of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's books. I don't see any contradiction.

 

Fizix and Gold, I believe both of your points are very valid.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Old Man Contradiction

[Encephalon]

vortex, on 02 August 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

 

...Now, if anyone can tell me of such masters who have attained sustained abilities (alchemical stages, healing ability, etc) by using entheogens...then let's hear it???

 

 

 

Agree 100%

 

COME FORWARD, WILL YA!

 

I like the Buddha's path, hard work but what you gain stays with you. You can't beat hard work. The rest is like when you use steroids to climb the mountain faster. You are only a cheat and certainly what you gained won't stay with you long enough.

 

Btw, those substances won't provide you the third jewel: prajna.

 

 

Let's remind the OP about the 10 qualities to Buddhahood:

 

1. Perfection in giving (dana-parami)

 

2. Morality (sila)

 

3. Renunciation (nekkhamma)

 

4. Wisdom (prajna)

 

5. Energy (viriya)

 

6. Patience (khanti)

 

7. Truthfulness (sacca)

 

8. Resolution (adhitthana)

 

9. Loving-kindness (metta)

 

10. Equanimity (upekkha)

 

 

Explanation:

 

sentient beings destined for destined for Buddhahood are concerned about the welfare of living beings, not tolerating the suffering of beings, wishing long duration to the higher states of happiness of beings, and being impartial and just to all beings, therefore:

 

1. They provide things (dana) to all beings so that they may be happy, without investigating whether they are worthy or not.

 

2. By avoiding to do them any harm, they observe morality (sila).

 

3. In order to bring morality to perfection, they train themselves in renunciation (nekkhamma).

 

4. In order to understand clearly what is beneficial and injurious to beings, they purify their wisdom (pana).

 

5. For the sake of the welfare and happiness of others they constantly exert their energy (viriya).

 

6. Though having become heroes through utmost energy, they are nevertheless full of patience (khanti) toward the manifold failings of beings .

 

7. Once they have promised to give or do something, they do not break their promise (thruthfulness, sacca).

 

8. With unshakable resolution (adhitthana) they work for the weal and welfare of beings.

 

9. With unshakable kindness (metta) they are helpful to all.

 

10. By reason of their equanimity (upekkha) they do not expect anything in return.

 

 

There are degrees of difference amongst some of these values but as a general rule of thumb they do work.

 

 

Drug usage won't provide you with those qualities, for sure.

 

We are talking about spiritual matters, not mind-altering substances. We are trying to tame the mind and overcome its insatiable lust for anything. We are trying to keep the door open not decorate it with fancy rainbow colours. Because as you can see the mind is the door to the divine-nirvana, pure eternal bliss where the ego won't seek refuge. We leave the ego behind and purify the spirit. Drug experiences won't give you that.

 

Using power plants for research purposes, healing and shamanic experiences has got nothing to do with the ego-trip of reaching a cool altered state; but again I don't think the main purpose of this thread relates to any of first three areas.

 

Still I think liberation is the most noble goal. But again, each to their own as there are many levels of enlightenment and kinds of players.

 

We need to update our Emoticon library to include a smileyface that is bashing it's bloody brains out on a brick wall after trying to make simple and uncomplicated points.

 

NO ONE is saying that you need to ingest drugs to become spiritual masters and healers. It's a stupid point, I don't believe it's been argued here, and if it has, I was speedreading too fast through all the bullshit to recognize it. The point that should be made is that entheogenic ingestion, with as much as a single episode, has the POTENTIAL of inducing an experience that temporarily dissolves the psychological barriers between self (small s) and non-self. It is a process of depersonalization that has the ability of suspending the illusion of separateness and isolation that are characterize human consciousness.

 

I might point out that this experience of depersonalization and the ensuing experience, however imperfect, of a shared and interdependent reality apart from the human ego is a profoundly moving one and if it is even remotely akin to a raw and unfiltered experience of Indra's Net and the ecological reality that defines it then it's pretty fucking valuable and worth further controlled study. The results of hallucinogenic therapy for patients with terminal illnesses attest to this.

 

It's just a thought, but I'm wondering what we could discover if we zipped up our pants and curtailed the practice of endless, pointless metaphysical speculation just long enough to understand how a truly ecological consciousness would manifest in the absence of a false self.

 

This is the subject of the Paticca Samuppada, the intellectual content of the Buddha's enlightenment, that part of his intuitive realization that can be expressed in conceptual terms. We should get serious and talk about this some time!

 

 

Nah. Too much work.

[Taiji Bum]

My anti-drug message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbapAig9gw

[Gerard]

I would suggest you a good detox instead of playing with stuff that in your case would be a hindrance instead of real help.

 

All the best.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

vortex, on 02 August 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

 

...Now, if anyone can tell me of such masters who have attained sustained abilities (alchemical stages, healing ability, etc) by using entheogens...then let's hear it???

 

 

 

 

 

We need to update our Emoticon library to include a smileyface that is bashing it's bloody brains out on a brick wall after trying to make simple and uncomplicated points.

 

NO ONE is saying that you need to ingest drugs to become spiritual masters and healers. It's a stupid point, I don't believe it's been argued here, and if it has, I was speedreading too fast through all the bullshit to recognize it. The point that should be made is that entheogenic ingestion, with as much as a single episode, has the POTENTIAL of inducing an experience that temporarily dissolves the psychological barriers between self (small s) and non-self. It is a process of depersonalization that has the ability of suspending the illusion of separateness and isolation that are characterize human consciousness.

 

I might point out that this experience of depersonalization and the ensuing experience, however imperfect, of a shared and interdependent reality apart from the human ego is a profoundly moving one and if it is even remotely akin to a raw and unfiltered experience of Indra's Net and the ecological reality that defines it then it's pretty fucking valuable and worth further controlled study. The results of hallucinogenic therapy for patients with terminal illnesses attest to this.

 

It's just a thought, but I'm wondering what we could discover if we zipped up our pants and curtailed the practice of endless, pointless metaphysical speculation just long enough to understand how a truly ecological consciousness would manifest in the absence of a false self.

 

This is the subject of the Paticca Samuppada, the intellectual content of the Buddha's enlightenment, that part of his intuitive realization that can be expressed in conceptual terms. We should get serious and talk about this some time!

 

 

Nah. Too much work.

 

 

+10,850

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

My anti-drug message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbapAig9gw

 

 

-2,548,783

 

(warning: reverse psychology at work--if your kid watches this, I guarantee they will be high on ecstasy within 24 hours)

[Vajrahridaya]

vortex, on 02 August 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

 

...Now, if anyone can tell me of such masters who have attained sustained abilities (alchemical stages, healing ability, etc) by using entheogens...then let's hear it???

 

 

 

 

 

We need to update our Emoticon library to include a smileyface that is bashing it's bloody brains out on a brick wall after trying to make simple and uncomplicated points.

 

NO ONE is saying that you need to ingest drugs to become spiritual masters and healers. It's a stupid point, I don't believe it's been argued here, and if it has, I was speedreading too fast through all the bullshit to recognize it. The point that should be made is that entheogenic ingestion, with as much as a single episode, has the POTENTIAL of inducing an experience that temporarily dissolves the psychological barriers between self (small s) and non-self. It is a process of depersonalization that has the ability of suspending the illusion of separateness and isolation that are characterize human consciousness.

 

I might point out that this experience of depersonalization and the ensuing experience, however imperfect, of a shared and interdependent reality apart from the human ego is a profoundly moving one and if it is even remotely akin to a raw and unfiltered experience of Indra's Net and the ecological reality that defines it then it's pretty fucking valuable and worth further controlled study. The results of hallucinogenic therapy for patients with terminal illnesses attest to this.

 

It's just a thought, but I'm wondering what we could discover if we zipped up our pants and curtailed the practice of endless, pointless metaphysical speculation just long enough to understand how a truly ecological consciousness would manifest in the absence of a false self.

 

This is the subject of the Paticca Samuppada, the intellectual content of the Buddha's enlightenment, that part of his intuitive realization that can be expressed in conceptual terms. We should get serious and talk about this some time!

 

 

Nah. Too much work.

 

Haha... not for the lazy, definitely. There are a couple of instances where the Buddha just had to walk away from people and go sit in the woods because of the fact that they just didn't understand what the heck he was talking about. As he first said. The truth of this realization is so profound, that people won't even understand!

 

Anyway... I agree. As Swami Muktananda said, and I kind of paraphrase merely based upon memory, "Hallucinogens can give you a glimpse, but if you don't put in the work, you don't really attain true and lasting wisdom."

 

But! After saying that... a glimpse can be the answer to a long held question leading to a true path of sustainable high quality of life.

[Old Man Contradiction]

vortex, on 02 August 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

 

...Now, if anyone can tell me of such masters who have attained sustained abilities (alchemical stages, healing ability, etc) by using entheogens...then let's hear it???

 

 

 

 

 

We need to update our Emoticon library to include a smileyface that is bashing it's bloody brains out on a brick wall after trying to make simple and uncomplicated points.

 

NO ONE is saying that you need to ingest drugs to become spiritual masters and healers. It's a stupid point, I don't believe it's been argued here, and if it has, I was speedreading too fast through all the bullshit to recognize it. The point that should be made is that entheogenic ingestion, with as much as a single episode, has the POTENTIAL of inducing an experience that temporarily dissolves the psychological barriers between self (small s) and non-self. It is a process of depersonalization that has the ability of suspending the illusion of separateness and isolation that are characterize human consciousness.

 

I might point out that this experience of depersonalization and the ensuing experience, however imperfect, of a shared and interdependent reality apart from the human ego is a profoundly moving one and if it is even remotely akin to a raw and unfiltered experience of Indra's Net and the ecological reality that defines it then it's pretty fucking valuable and worth further controlled study. The results of hallucinogenic therapy for patients with terminal illnesses attest to this.

 

It's just a thought, but I'm wondering what we could discover if we zipped up our pants and curtailed the practice of endless, pointless metaphysical speculation just long enough to understand how a truly ecological consciousness would manifest in the absence of a false self.

 

This is the subject of the Paticca Samuppada, the intellectual content of the Buddha's enlightenment, that part of his intuitive realization that can be expressed in conceptual terms. We should get serious and talk about this some time!

 

 

Nah. Too much work.

 

Blasto, you win. It'd be hella interesting to talk about topics you present, but I think your post says it all. AKA too lazy. But maybe you'd like to start a new topic about it?

Edited August 3, 2010 by Old Man Contradiction

[Old Man Contradiction]

I would suggest you a good detox instead of playing with stuff that in your case would be a hindrance instead of real help.

 

All the best.

 

detox = good

assuming you know other people = bad

[Encephalon]

Haha... not for the lazy, definitely. There are a couple of instances where the Buddha just had to walk away from people and go sit in the woods because of the fact that they just didn't understand what the heck he was talking about. As he first said. The truth of this realization is so profound, that people won't even understand!

 

Anyway... I agree. As Swami Muktananda said, and I kind of paraphrase merely based upon memory, "Hallucinogens can give you a glimpse, but if you don't put in the work, you don't really attain true and lasting wisdom."

 

But! After saying that... a glimpse can be the answer to a long held question leading to a true path of sustainable high quality of life.

 

 

Well said.

 

The closest thing that westerners have to the Paticca Samuppada is general systems theory, which ain't no cakewalk either, but for those willing to put in the work, Joanna Macy's "The Dharma of Natural Systems: Mutual Causality in Buddhism and General Systems Theory" is such a thrilling spiritual and intellectual carnival ride that you'll be changed forever.

 

"The individual self...appears as a process, a pattern of psycho-physical events. Because it is formed through sensory, affective, and cognitive interaction with its environment, it cannot be abstracted from its context in nature and society. In the Buddha Dharma this view is integral to the teachings of the Khandas, the causal relation of the nidanas, and the doctrine of anatta. In general systems theory it is basic to the concept of the open system. As the person processes and transforms food from the natural world, so also does the person self-organize by processing and transforming and exchanging information derived from the community." (1991:184).

 

Pretty exciting shit, eh?

[Encephalon]

Blasto, you win. It'd be hella interesting to talk about topics you present, but I think your post says it all. AKA too lazy. But maybe you'd like to start a new topic about it?

 

Thanks. You're fast!! I think we're headed in that direction.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

"The individual self...appears as a process, a pattern of psycho-physical events. Because it is formed through sensory, affective, and cognitive interaction with its environment, it cannot be abstracted from its context in nature and society. In the Buddha Dharma this view is integral to the teachings of the Khandas, the causal relation of the nidanas, and the doctrine of anatta. In general systems theory it is basic to the concept of the open system. As the person processes and transforms food from the natural world, so also does the person self-organize by processing and transforming and exchanging information derived from the community." (1991:184).

 

Pretty exciting shit, eh?

 

No Freakin' doubt man! Stuff like this makes me want to get into Cognitive Science!

 

I have a couple of friends getting their masters in this and I'm like... YO! That's just western style Buddhism without the sitting method. It's like proving inter-dependence through seemingly dualistic but still a viable environment of study. Even though sitting and quieting the mind in my opinion is deeply necessary, especially for the deeply intellectual as the practice grants more space for wisdom to connect with intellectual musings and make good buddhies of each other.

[goldisheavy]

It seems like my first reply may come off as a bit more anti-drug than I would like.

 

So I want to say this to be clear. I think drugs are not inherently bad. I think that a wise person who doesn't have a dismissive or casual attitude toward the drugs, but who instead treats them with some basic and common-sense respect, and as a gateway into the sacred or the spiritual reality, such person can get very good results from drugs. The same person will understand that drugs are just but one door and not make taking drugs an exclusive activity, but would mix them with contemplation and meditation and so on.

 

Like I said, the shamans of old had a very different attitude toward the mushrooms compared to many modern people. They didn't think of the magic mushrooms as something casual, like some candy or some way to merely have fun. And so I wouldn't criticize those guys. I can only criticize the cheap fun seekers and the casual, mundane, disinterested and ignorant consumers of today. I trust people here are wise enough and mature enough to know where they fit. If you think you treat drugs with flippancy and a dismissive ease, then you know you're a consumer without me having to tell you that. If not, then you know you're wise enough to benefit from the mushrooms or the modern derivatives like LSD.

 

What really matters is not so much a substance as context and understanding. Food, coffee, exercise, everything we do alters our state of mind. Watching advertising on TV alters your state of mind. Just because drugs also alter it is neither here nor there. Context is everything. The context for commercial advertisement is such that watching those ads is more likely to turn you into a mindless zombie than enlighten you. But in the right context watching an ad can be an enlightening experience too.

 

In my opinion, spiritual path is all about empowerment, and it's not so easy to feel empowered by something you consider to be external to you. If your power comes from something external, is it really yours? This is one thing that a mushroom or LSD user really needs to be honest (to one's own self, and not to me or anyone on this forum) about.

Edited August 3, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Encephalon]

No Freakin' doubt man! Stuff like this makes me want to get into Cognitive Science!

 

I have a couple of friends getting their masters in this and I'm like... YO! That's just western style Buddhism without the sitting method. It's like proving inter-dependence through seemingly dualistic but still a viable environment of study. Even though sitting and quieting the mind in my opinion is deeply necessary, especially for the deeply intellectual as the practice grants more space for wisdom to connect with intellectual musings and make good buddhies of each other.

 

Well, if I had it to do over again, I'd get a nursing degree and my bush pilot's license and move to Alaska, but the CogScience Dept. at UC Berkeley would be cool as hell. George Lakoff teaches there, and of course Joanna Macy lives in Berkeley too. We're weird out here on the Left Coast, but we think.

[Sunya]

No Freakin' doubt man! Stuff like this makes me want to get into Cognitive Science!

 

I have a couple of friends getting their masters in this and I'm like... YO! That's just western style Buddhism without the sitting method. It's like proving inter-dependence through seemingly dualistic but still a viable environment of study. Even though sitting and quieting the mind in my opinion is deeply necessary, especially for the deeply intellectual as the practice grants more space for wisdom to connect with intellectual musings and make good buddhies of each other.

 

Ya.. western cognitive awareness is growing. I decided to do something which in my eyes is more pragmatic and go for a doctorate in clinical psychology. That way I can teach mindfulness based therapies to the depressed, anxious, or maybe even schizophrenic. Should be an interesting job. Might even join the military so I can retire in 20 years.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ya.. western cognitive awareness is growing. I decided to do something which in my eyes is more pragmatic and go for a doctorate in clinical psychology. That way I can teach mindfulness based therapies to the depressed, anxious, or maybe even schizophrenic. Should be an interesting job. Might even join the military so I can retire in 20 years.

 

How wonderful! One of my thoughts as well. You are still quite young bro... get it done!!

[Vajrahridaya]

Well, if I had it to do over again, I'd get a nursing degree and my bush pilot's license and move to Alaska, but the CogScience Dept. at UC Berkeley would be cool as hell. George Lakoff teaches there, and of course Joanna Macy lives in Berkeley too. We're weird out here on the Left Coast, but we think.

 

I almost moved back to Berkley earlier this year. There's a great Dzogchen center there! Hmmmn.

[Vajrahridaya]

In my opinion, spiritual path is all about empowerment, and it's not so easy to feel empowered by something you consider to be external to you. If your power comes from something external, is it really yours? This is one thing that a mushroom or LSD user really needs to be honest (to one's own self, and not to me or anyone on this forum) about.

 

My sentiments exactly. I do like Deepak Chopras thoughts on drugs found on youtube after Taiji Bums' link up to youtube anti-drug statement.

[Mark Foote]

 

But! After saying that... a glimpse can be the answer to a long held question leading to a true path of sustainable high quality of life.

 

 

I did a three-day sit in the Santa Cruz mountains with Vanja Palmers, and the topic came up. Vanja mentioned that a practitioner he knew was discouraged, having sat thirty years with no significant spiritual experience to show for it; Vanja asked his audience if they didn't think that under carefully controlled circumstances, maybe entheogenic experience would be a good thing, for this person?

 

I think the native American approach is probably a good one, and there's usually a leader, and people prepare; I don't know from experience that it's a good approach, but it seems like it worked for them for a long time and still works today.

 

I am concerned with the source of my action, but it's not a question of ten virtues, it's a question of how action takes place without conscious volition. Can I witness it, out of the necessity of these bones in this breath and the place I'm in right now? Am I free to act? Close to home, no home anywhere, and yet.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Mark Foote

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre67h0s6-us-depression-psychedelics/

 

LONDON, Aug. 18, 2010 (Reuters) — Mind-altering drugs like LSD, ketamine or magic mushrooms could be combined with psychotherapy to treat people suffering from depression, compulsive disorders or chronic pain, Swiss scientists suggested on Wednesday.

 

The researchers said recent brain imaging studies show that psychedelics such as lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), ketamine and psilocybin -- the psychoactive component in recreational drugs known as magic mushrooms -- act on the brain in ways that could help reduce symptoms of various psychiatric disorders.

 

The drugs could be used as a kind of catalyst, the scientists said, helping patients to alter their perception of problems or pain levels and then work with behavioral therapists or psychotherapists to tackle them in new ways.

 

"Psychedelics can give patients a new perspective -- particularly when things like suppressed memories come up -- and then they can work with that experience," said Franz Vollenweider of the Neuropsychopharmacology and brain imaging unit at Zurich's University Hospital of Psychiatry, who published a paper on the issue in Nature Neuroscience journal.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/08/24/psychedelic.drugs.depression/index.html?hpt=C2

 

The psilocybin study Ross is leading at NYU is typical of the new-generation research. On two separate occasions during the nine-month study, which is being funded by the Heffter Research Institute, patients are given a silver chalice containing either a psilocybin pill or a placebo.

 

The patient then lies down on a brown sofa surrounded by artwork, sculptures of Buddha, and, on a nearby bookshelf, a little glass mushroom with a red cap. For the next six hours, the patient listens, with eyes shaded, to a combination of classical, Eastern, and tribal music.

 

A pair of therapists -- who don't know whether the patient has taken an active drug or placebo -- stay in the room for support, though they encourage the patient to remain in a meditative state.

 

This may sound a bit trippy. But the science behind the research is sound, says Franz Vollenweider, M.D., a psychiatrist at the University of Zurich, in Switzerland, and a member of the Heffter Research Institute's board of directors.

Edited August 24, 2010 by drewhempel