Raymond Wolter's temporary suspension from posting.

[Aetherous]

Not that I have a say, but I think Raymond Wolter should be welcomed back. "Cheerleader" is not an insult.

 

Not saying anything about cat...all my respect to her...

 

Because of what happened to Raymond, some are confused, and thinking that the moderation here is KAP biased.

 

My apologies for making your work harder, mods, even if that only means reading this.

 

Peace!

[mjjbecker]

I am not inclined towards suspending people in general. I've seen much worse said.

 

That said, things have in the past gotten rather nasty, so I appreciate what the moderators are trying to do. It is a thankless task and as a moderator you almost always end up being criticised.

 

'Cheerleader' may not seem like an insult, but the manner it was put was dismissive and demeaning:

 

Like your cheerleader cat said earlier, if you don't like criticism, ignore, scroll down and don't respond.

 

I'm not a woman, but I can see how such a comment might seem sexist and really quite insulting. It needs to be seen in that context. It wouldn't bother me from a male perspective, but a comment specifically male orientated in nature might. Say for example if I called you a 'dumb jock' (which of course I am not). It is a dismissive, male orientated remark implying stupidity and lack or intelligence. Cheerleader can seem the same when directed at a woman.

 

I don't think Raymond intended to cause offense and it looked like a flippant comment given without much thought. I've done the same myself many times, but I do understand that such remarks can be hurtful.

 

As for a KAP bias, I think that is unfair on Mal. It isn't that long ago that Santiago was suspended (by Trunk, I know). You let out your little cheer when 'Starjumper7' was suspended by Mal-was Mal being biased their against Steve, or does the fact you personally don't like Steve mean that it was OK for him to be banned? I'm well aware of Steve's track record and have been on the receiving end of his comments myself. I didn't let out a little 'yippee' over it. In fact, I think Steve has made some effort to be more polite, compared to the past.

 

I feel I have to support the moderators because there is no way of pleasing everyone and they are doing a sterling job of a very difficult nature. I do look forward to Raymond returning also. All this is just conversation on the Internet and really no big deal.

[Aetherous]

I feel the same way...except for "cheerleader" being insulting to women. I don't see that at all. Lots of intelligent women are cheerleaders by choice. It only means dumb if you put "dumb" in front of it.

 

Besides, "cheerleader" wasn't demeaning in context anyway. It simply meant "supporter" in a negative way. Not an insult at all.

 

...

 

It's not my opinion that the mods are KAP biased. It is what I've heard from others. I think they are fair, and that this was probably just something that happened very fast.

 

So this thread isn't a complaint that the mods are doing a bad job. I think the opposite. This thread is just me saying Raymond should be welcomed back, partly because it looks bad to at least a few out there.

 

All this is just conversation on the Internet and really no big deal.

 

Totally agree...but it is confusing for a new member who was invited here to be banned for something that makes no sense. Plus, most members get a few warnings at least before being banned.

[Mal]

[三江源]

I disagree entirely. And I'm very surprised that anyone could miss the point. How very disapointing that anyone could think it even remotely okay to designate someone in that way.

 

What would be an okay word to call someone who that I perceive is unconscious and unawakened? "Yahoo"? Would that have been fine for me to say that to RW?I doubt it, so what is the right word?

 

 

What would be an okay word to call someone that I perceive as persistently and intrusively missing the point who draws attention to themselves endlessly voicing their failiure to comprehend? "Class dunce"? Would that be okay for me to call RW that? I doubt it, so what is the right word?

 

 

 

What would be the word for someone who makes erroneous and odious comparisons, stating their favourite board members as superior to a board member they are unable to value? " Invidious divisive Ill mannered oik'? Woud that have been ok for me to call RW that? I doubt it, so what is the right word?

 

We start designating people as how we perceive them on the board, yes?

 

Quite regardless of how they will feel about it?

 

Is that the suggested plan, Scotty?

 

If so please can we pool an acceptable list of designations we can use to label people.

 

 

Labeling people, instead of relating to them and treating them with respect is just fine, that's your idea for the board.

 

Okaay.

 

We can give it a fair trial and see how it goes.

[三江源]

Oh, and what's the ok word to use for "insensitive about language and obtuse about women"?

[Mal]

I'd just like to say thank you to Scotty for starting this thread. Because there ARE personal messages going around about this. People here shouldn't be afraid to question moderator decisions.

 

re: is "cheerleader" offensive it's also worth considering that since I've been here I can not recall Cat EVER getting offended.

[三江源]

 

 

It's also worth considering that since I've been here I can not recall Cat EVER getting offended.

 

Mal, your partner said she would be offended by it..it is SUPER obvious RW was being disrespectful and demeaning to me, it is beyond obvious your moderating was right.

 

The real issue here is name - calling and labelling and the lowering of standards here such that it could even be considered that it is for the good of the board to freely communicate in such a degraded way.

 

Either we have a list of agreed labels to stick on people, or we dont label people. Maybe it should be a poll.

[ShaktiMama]

Mal, your partner said she would be offended by it..it is SUPER obvious RW was being disrespectful and demeaning to me, it is beyond obvious your moderating was right.

 

The real issue here is name - calling and labelling and the lowering of standards here such that it could even be considered that it is for the good of the board to freely communicate in such a degraded way.

 

Either we have a list of agreed labels to stick on people, or we dont label people. Maybe it should be a poll.

 

 

Since it was tagged on to a post I made I also saw it as an attack, especially against a woman. That is why I said don't attack the supporters. RW is a new member. He has gone back and read posts that Santi and I had participated in to bring that forth into the discussion. Maybe he saw how other people attack those who are supportive of myself and Santi and thought that was OK behavior. I do know that there are people afraid to post on Tbums because they think they will be attacked for being supportive of KAP...you know, accusations of cheerleading and cult like behavior and such.

 

So if we are going to support the supporters, regardless of who they support, I would like to make it more consistent when they are demeaned for their personal views.

 

s

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Sorry, I missed all this as it was happening. Are you guys actually asserting that the use of "cheerleader" in that context was sexist? How was that sexist? Can someone explain? I don't see it as insulting, either, unless people read more into it than was intended. I'm not taking sides, it just seems ludicrous to me that people were offended by that, regardless of what Mal's girlfriend's take on it was. A cheerleader? isn't that describing her possible roll in relationship to KAP, rather than name-calling? George W. Bush was a cheerleader. If I'm missing something, tell me to shut up, otherwise, I don't think I agree with the suspension. I agree with Scotty. In this context, it is NOT sexist and demeaning to women. That it is taken that way is their interpretation, not the fault of RW.

 

The phraseing was perhaps problematic, but not ban-worthy. If he had said, "...cat, one of your cheerleaders..." there would be no problem at all. Cat is not the only cheerleader, but she was singled out. So she was labeled, but I still don't see it as an insult. If this banning trend goes too far, it will be unfortunate. And she is not being demeaned for her views, but is being pointed out for her stance or approach to something.

Edited August 3, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[三江源]

Sorry, I missed all this as it was happening. Are you guys actually asserting that the use of "cheerleader" in that context was sexist? How was that sexist? Can someone explain? I don't see it as insulting, either, unless people read more into it than was intended. I'm not taking sides, it just seems ludicrous to me that people were offended by that, regardless of what Mal's girlfriend's take on it was. A cheerleader? isn't that describing her possible roll in relationship to KAP, rather than name-calling? George W. Bush was a cheerleader. If I'm missing something, tell me to shut up, otherwise, I don't think I agree with the suspension. I agree with Scotty. In this context, it is NOT sexist and demeaning to women. That it is taken that way is their interpretation, not the fault of RW.

 

Here's TheSongs, cheerleading for Scotty.

[Birch]

I suppose it depends, as Cat says, on whatever the label means to the person posting it as well as what it means to the person it's directed at.

 

Ways to criticize a position rather than a person take some learning. Worth doing IMO.

 

I did detect contempt from RW but then I detect contempt from lots of posters on here and they don't all, nor always get banned.

 

IMO the moderators are doing a pretty thankless job (for which I thank them ) and doing it to the best of their sensitivity and ability.

 

Yes I do think there are things that the guys may not see as insulting, but that the women will, definitely. May help to shed some light on the mysterious female

 

I wonder what I would do if I felt insulted. Maybe I would just call it out as a question? "What did you mean by saying I'm a "cheerleader?"" Then the other person would have to put up or shut up (or maybe just explain their reasoning).

[ShaktiMama]

 

But I cheer you all on for having a meaningful and friendly disscusion about it.

 

 

THAT!

 

s

[ShaktiMama]

So just to be clear. when I asked rw to not attack the supporters his response was in his post #667:

 

 

Good evasive response. Didn't expect anything better.

 

And tell that your supporters who attack those who don't support this cult-like madness

 

I think he meant to say...and tell your supporters not to attack those who don't support this cult like madness.

 

But, I think he was acknowledging he attacked first. I could be wrong on that.

 

If he was acknowledging this then he knew what he was doing when he called cat a cheerleader.

 

 

s

[Tao99]

I find "bitch slapping" and calling someone a "pussy" is far more sexist then saying someone is a cheerleader

Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[三江源]

I find "bitch slapping" and calling someone a "pussy" is far more sexist then saying someone is a cheerleader for some group (like GBush was called) which I find extremely ho hum and boring. But I understand this place less and less everyday.

 

 

 

oh the horror

 

Oh the horror of Pussy, oh the horror of bitchslap.

[三江源]

I find "bitch slapping" and calling someone a "pussy" is far more sexist then saying someone is a cheerleader for some group (like GBush was called) which I find extremely ho hum and boring. But I understand this place less and less everyday.

 

 

<<yawn>>

 

<<yawn>> about pussy

 

<<yawn>> about bitchslap

[Tao99]

.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[三江源]

whatever turns you on ... you the one identifying sexist behavior

 

Would it be ok if I yawn at this post? Would it be ok if I say that I find it oblique, inarticulate, uninspired, pointless, and I wonder why one earth people post when they clearly have nothing of any value to say whatsoever, and would be far better off reading something to raise their intelligence somewhat, and not writing drivel?

 

Is it ok if I say that? I guess I shouldnt say 'drivel'. Is there a George Bush related word which would be ok?

 

 

What are the boundaries here for how much we just blah out our criticisms as if we had a right to impose them on other people, and then pat ourselves on the back under the gravely mistaken sense that we are showing evidence of critical thought?

[Tao99]

.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Tao99

[三江源]

looks like you just answered your own question .. called it cattin

 

I dont find any meaning in your post, to me it looks like a waste of space. My sense of you is that you have no ability to debate inteligently.

 

Is that Ok if I say that? Does it make it a nice friendly board or should I keep my perception to myself and exercise tact?

[三江源]

cat, might these additional posts directed to Tao99 be slipping down the slippery slope of communication?

 

do you think so Rainbow_Vein? How can we tell they might be unnaceptable?

[三江源]

Hi cat,

 

Unacceptable? I suspect this would depend. Do you mean in regards to the rules of TTB? Or, in regards to common courtesy?

 

I understood the intent of the original poster as one of respectful discussion. As the thread is unwinding, I find less indications of this. That's what I'm saying.

 

I'm more than happy to discuss what is common courtesy and how to agree guidelines for it. Great idea.

 

How subjective is it?

 

Is it easiest if we all PLAY NICE and SELF MODERATE and dont knee jerk react, label each other and spew forth our judgments.. or what?

[Mokona]

Internet anonymity makes it easy to draw bullshit lines in the sand, when it comes down to it, we have to have moderators because people can't seem to help themselves when they know they can be insulting without consequence. Therefore it is easy to play people along and probably enjoyable for some too, I've seen one person join a youngster chat session in order to cause chaos, purposely, because he enjoyed watching people become upset over his behavior.

 

whatever turns you on ... you the one identifying sexist behavior

 

How else is there to say it? No shit? It isn't really possible to tell another person 'how' they should take a comment or post, or remark made in person, you can't force someone to 'see it your way'.

 

I find "bitch slapping" and calling someone a "pussy" is far more sexist then saying someone is a cheerleader for some group (like GBush was called) which I find extremely ho hum and boring. But I understand this place less and less everyday.

 

 

Quote

 

Like your cheerleader cat said earlier, if you don't like criticism, ignore, scroll down and don't respond.

 

 

oh the horror

 

Actually it sounds like you don't understand people as a whole. If you can't identify idiocy in your own behavior than you might want to stop posting until you can.

[idquest]

I fully support Mal's decision to suspend RW. The intent of his comment was to insult a board member, not to make a discussion or clarify points.