concentration training or insight training?

[beoman]

I've been readin Daniel Ingram's "hardcore dharma book" ( http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/28A35449-618D-4C9B-98EF-D6AF1659B26F.html ) , going from beginning to end. He says it's important to develop Morality, Concentration, and Wisdom. To develop concentration one should focus on one's breath until the mind is stable. he says to do this until you have access concentration.

 

then he says to develop Wisdom one should do insight meditation. here he recommends trying to experience as many sensations as possible per second, start with 1, going to 2, 4, etc.

 

should one try insight meditation only after getting sufficient practice with concentration meditation? should one try to alternate between both? is trying to do insight without concentration just setting yourself up for failure?

 

This isn't the first place I've heard of this. In zen buddhism they recommend first meditating by counting your breath. once you can easily count many breaths without losing concentration, then you stop counting. once you can focus on your breath easily without counting, then you "just sit", which I guess Daniel Ingram has a different take on.

 

Daniel also explains a practice he does:

In another exercise, which is quite common to many meditation traditions, I sit quietly in a quiet place, close my eyes, and concentrate on the breath. More than just concentrating on it, I know that the sensations that make up the concept “breath” are each impermanent, lasting only an instant. With this knowledge, I try to see how many individual times in each part of the breath I can perceive the sensations that make up the breath. During the in-breath I try to experience it as many times as possible, and try to be quite precise about exactly when the in-breath begins and ends.

More than this, I try to perceive exactly and precisely when each sensation of motion or physicality of the breath arises and passes. I then do the same for the out-breath, paying particular attention to the exact end of the out-breath and then the beginning of the new in-breath. I don’t worry about how I am breathing because it is not the quality of the breath which I am concerned with or even what the sensations are, but the ultimate nature of these sensations: their impermanence, their arising and passing away. When I am really engaged with bending the mind to this exercise, there is little room to be lost in thought. I have found this to be a very useful practice for developing concentration and penetrating the illusion of continuity.

 

So would this exercise just be developing both at once?

Edited August 4, 2010 by beoman

[joeblast]

You'll only see detail under the surface once its calm

 

"focus the awareness on the physical mechanisms of breath" until it all happens perfectly without any Yi oriented regulation - aka "real regulating."

[goldisheavy]

I've been readin Daniel Ingram's "hardcore dharma book" ( http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/28A35449-618D-4C9B-98EF-D6AF1659B26F.html ) , going from beginning to end. He says it's important to develop Morality, Concentration, and Wisdom. To develop concentration one should focus on one's breath until the mind is stable. he says to do this until you have access concentration.

 

then he says to develop Wisdom one should do insight meditation. here he recommends trying to experience as many sensations as possible per second, start with 1, going to 2, 4, etc.

 

This is bad advice. Wisdom is vastly more than simply an understanding of impermanence. This seems like an obsession with impermanence, which will not result in wisdom, but will result in an attachment to impermanence and a distortion of understanding.

 

To answer your question though, you should develop both concentration and wisdom, but wisdom is far more important than concentration. If you are able to think about a single topic without diverting into unwanted branches, you are good enough. If your mind can't stay on topic for more than 10 seconds, then you need to practice concentration. If you can stay on topic, you are good enough for wisdom. Once your wisdom gets very profound, you may want to return back to concentration to get magic power developed. By "return" I don't mean replace contemplation (wisdom) with concentration. It just means emphasis and doesn't imply exclusivity.

 

Wisdom is something that's desirable from start to finish, but concentration is only necessary up to a point as a means to an end. So if your mind is nearly useless for normal thinking, you need to shape it up a little with concentration, then you are done. If you, much later on, want magic power, you can get back to concentration again. Concentration is a servant. Wisdom is the master.

 

Impermanence is just a tiny fraction of wisdom. Wisdom includes things like understanding what it is you really want from life. Who are you? What does it mean to have a body? What is reason? Does reason have limitations? What is mystery? Is mystery fundamental or accidental? Things like that. Wisdom covers a very broad range of concerns, and in general wisdom is what leads one to holistic and interconnected understanding of all things. Wisdom is what allows you to see the big picture. And seeing the big picture is what allows you to avoid getting lost in details. It's like if you have a map, and you can only see a square inch on that map, it's easy to get lost. But if you can observe the entire map with one glance, you will know exactly where to go. That's how wisdom functions.

 

Wisdom is what would allow you to not have to ask this question that you are asking right now, for example. So very obviously you want wisdom before anything else. The fact that you have to ask this question is because you lack wisdom and not because you lack concentration.

 

Also, obsession with counting things is wrong. Counting stages, discriminating 10 bhumis, counting phenomena per second, all that is very wrong. It's not only a waste of time, it is deceiving. You might actually convince yourself there are actually 10 bhumis for real. In reality bhumis don't exist at all, we just invent them to have something to talk about. It's kind of like south and northern hemisphere. We say this to have something to talk about, but if you think hemispheres are actually real beyond mere conversational conveniences, you are very deluded. You should also understand that because something is merely a conversational convenience, there are *other* equally good conversational conveniences that can replace them. So instead of 10 bhumis you can have 4, or 35 bhumis. It is completely arbitrary. If you understand it like this, then you won't obsess on counting anything. Give counting a rest.

 

Just my 2c advice.

[xabir2005]

I've been readin Daniel Ingram's "hardcore dharma book" ( http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/28A35449-618D-4C9B-98EF-D6AF1659B26F.html ) , going from beginning to end. He says it's important to develop Morality, Concentration, and Wisdom. To develop concentration one should focus on one's breath until the mind is stable. he says to do this until you have access concentration.

 

then he says to develop Wisdom one should do insight meditation. here he recommends trying to experience as many sensations as possible per second, start with 1, going to 2, 4, etc.

 

should one try insight meditation only after getting sufficient practice with concentration meditation? should one try to alternate between both? is trying to do insight without concentration just setting yourself up for failure?

 

This isn't the first place I've heard of this. In zen buddhism they recommend first meditating by counting your breath. once you can easily count many breaths without losing concentration, then you stop counting. once you can focus on your breath easily without counting, then you "just sit", which I guess Daniel Ingram has a different take on.

 

Daniel also explains a practice he does:

 

 

So would this exercise just be developing both at once?

If I'm not wrong, Daniel focused on Vipassana until after first path.

 

You can also try asking at Daniel's forum http://www.dharmaoverground.org

[betwixter]

-

 

 

Edited September 12, 2010 by betwixter

[beoman]

Impermanence is just a tiny fraction of wisdom. Wisdom includes things like understanding what it is you really want from life. Who are you? What does it mean to have a body? What is reason? Does reason have limitations? What is mystery? Is mystery fundamental or accidental? Things like that. Wisdom covers a very broad range of concerns, and in general wisdom is what leads one to holistic and interconnected understanding of all things. Wisdom is what allows you to see the big picture. And seeing the big picture is what allows you to avoid getting lost in details. It's like if you have a map, and you can only see a square inch on that map, it's easy to get lost. But if you can observe the entire map with one glance, you will know exactly where to go. That's how wisdom functions.

 

Wisdom is what would allow you to not have to ask this question that you are asking right now, for example. So very obviously you want wisdom before anything else. The fact that you have to ask this question is because you lack wisdom and not because you lack concentration.

Heh yep if I were wiser I wouldn't have to ask =P.

 

About wisdom being more than this - Ingram mentioned this too. Not saying he's the absolute authority on anything, but he split wisdom into conventional wisdom and 'insight' wisdom. conventional wisdom is how to live your life well, figure out what you want out of life, being kind, etc. and 'insight' wisdom is understanding impermanence, suffering, and anatta.

 

To answer your question though, you should develop both concentration and wisdom, but wisdom is far more important than concentration. If you are able to think about a single topic without diverting into unwanted branches, you are good enough. If your mind can't stay on topic for more than 10 seconds, then you need to practice concentration. If you can stay on topic, you are good enough for wisdom. Once your wisdom gets very profound, you may want to return back to concentration to get magic power developed. By "return" I don't mean replace contemplation (wisdom) with concentration. It just means emphasis and doesn't imply exclusivity.

I figured as much. I think I'm concentrated enough for where I'm at now. Although.. i did try focusing just on my breath for one sitting, whereas usually I do a more relaxed meditation (as the latest poster said). but I found that I kept having many different body sensations, and it felt like I was constricting myself in a bad way to focus just on the breath and block everything out, so instead I focused on all the physical, auditory, and visual sensations I was feeling. I could definitely focus on that for 30 minutes without getting distracted by thoughts, though!

 

Also, obsession with counting things is wrong. Counting stages, discriminating 10 bhumis, counting phenomena per second, all that is very wrong. It's not only a waste of time, it is deceiving. You might actually convince yourself there are actually 10 bhumis for real. In reality bhumis don't exist at all, we just invent them to have something to talk about. It's kind of like south and northern hemisphere. We say this to have something to talk about, but if you think hemispheres are actually real beyond mere conversational conveniences, you are very deluded. You should also understand that because something is merely a conversational convenience, there are *other* equally good conversational conveniences that can replace them. So instead of 10 bhumis you can have 4, or 35 bhumis. It is completely arbitrary. If you understand it like this, then you won't obsess on counting anything. Give counting a rest.

 

Just my 2c advice.

 

Yes I feel this way too. I hadn't heard of bhumis before, just jhanas. I understand they're not real. They're more a way of potentially helping you see where you are at, but if you get attached to them, that is no good.

[beoman]

From The Anapanasati Sutta - A Practical Guide to Mindfulness of Breathing by Bhante Vimalaramsi

 

"In actual fact, meditation, as taught by the Lord Buddha, is never broken into different types, as is commonly practiced today. It is never deep concentration in any of its forms, that is, fixed or absorption concentration (appana samadhi), access or neighborhood concentration (upacara samadhi) or moment-to-moment concentration (khanika samadhi) --which actually brings tightness to mind and suppresses the hindrances. The 'concentration' meditation is a form of suppression, a kind of cutting off at one's experience which causes a kind of resistance to arise in one's mind. As a result, there is a conflict with reality. On the other hand, "Tranquil Wisdom Meditation" opens one's mind and is continually expanding it, which does not ever exclude or resist anything. A 'concentrated' mind does not meditate in the Buddhist way. It doesn't matter whether one is talking about full or fixed absorption concentration, or access concentration. It is still the same." The important rule of the meditation is, no matter what distracts one's mind away from the breath and tranquilizing one's mind, they simply open, expand, let it go without thinking about the distraction, relax mind and tightness in the head, feel mind open and relax away the tension, and softly redirect one's attention back to the object of meditation i.e., the breath and relaxing. The act of calming mind and relaxing the tightness in the head before coming back to the breath makes a huge difference between"Concentration Meditation" and "Tranquil Wisdom Meditation". A meditator who practices "Concentration Meditation" over-focuses on the object of meditation and thus, they have the tendency to close or tighten mind until there are no more distractions. This practice leads to deep absorption of mind where hindrances are blocked. On the other hand, "Tranquil Wisdom Meditation" has the tendency to open one's mind and to allow mind to become calm naturally. One does not suppress or force their mind to stay focused on the object of meditation. Instead, mind is always aware of what it is doing in the present moment. Whenever any distraction arises, one lets go, opens, expands and relaxes the tightness in the head before coming back to the breath and calming mind".

 

Hmm yes this is what I had been doing recently, "tranquil wisdom meditation". I heard that just focusing on counting the breath is not good. because, for example, once you stop meditating, you're no longer concentrating on the breath, and then how will what you do while meditating calm your mind in daily life?

 

I think I get the idea, though. balance concentration and wisdom. if I feel one is lacking, work on the other. and don't blindly get attached / listen to what other people say too much - better to practice.