Happy easter!

[sean]

Peregrino, I'm unfamiliar with this concept of "memetics" but I'm finding it intriguing. From just glancing at it, it seems like it's taking a strong "nurture" stance on desire formation. How does it account for something like sexual desire though? Intuitively I perceive a large portion of human desire as a struggle for an ideal partner, sexual pleasure, virility, etc. Actually, an even richer way of seeing human desire is through the lens of the chakras, each of us always having seven intrinsic desires (safety/food, sex, power, love, etc) and also we move through each one in a somewhat linearl fashion as developmental stages. The "center of gravity" for our desire evolves, ie: from power-fixation to love while still including desire for power in it's healthiest sense. (Same approach can be done with Tan Tiens). Am I misreading Girard's take on desire as an entirely social creation?

 

Sean

[cloud recluse]

 

Any book that systematically makes the POCM argument while taking into account potential objections would be a good start . . . Also, any POCM arguments that give evidence of pagan predecessors whose myths affirm the INNOCENCE of the dying and resurrecting god--THAT is where Girard claims the Gospel story breaks decisively from the past. He's not scandalized by the similarities between the Gospels and the pagan predecessors that Nietzsche and others like to bring up, but it is where the DIFFERENCES begin that the matter becomes crucial. ...

 

What else . . . I am also greatly interested in any testimony from pre-Christian pagan thinkers (polytheistic, Pythagorean, Stoic, etc.) who vociferously denounced any and all religious justifications of violence--whether in ritual sacrifice or any other socially sanctioned form. I can say this of the Buddha, but I'm talking about the West here . . ...

 

Yours in pacific mimesis,

Bubbagrino

Ok Pere-DAFreeSomeoneWasStupidEnoughToGiveMeMyOwnPacificIslandEvenThoughImABoozedOutMisyginistBubbaAnandaEverybodiesGodButSomeAreMoreGodThanOthersDaKalki-Grino .You are really shaking the cobwebs out of my brain trying to teach this old dog a new scholastic trick.Its going to take awhile,but Ill dig up what I can.And now that Im calming down from my kneejerk antichristianity,Girard is sounding more than interesting enough to allow me to see past the christian apologetics.would THINGS HIDDEN still be the best place to start ? Yours truly,Cloud-True HeartMasterSexuallyAbuseFemaleDisciplesButItsReallyTantricInitiationCozImAnAvatarSoThere-Recluse.

Edited April 22, 2006 by cloud recluse

[hajii]

Hey Hajii,do you feel like youve unleashed a dark & virulent antichristian upon this thread Seriously though,Ive been rereading my posts & comparing my fairly intense statements with everyone elses far calmer ones.If anyone out there has been disconcerted by my language I do apologize.Ironically,I have been influenced quite positevley by Christians in various aspects of my life,and I have no problem with people drawing inspiration from the Christ SYMBOL as such.Just wanted to make that clear Regards,Cloud.

 

Cloud,

your posts have been thought provoking, and while I was originally a bit put-off, I have come to see the truth in them. In fact, that info was just what I was looking for, only I didn't know it

[cloud recluse]

Cloud,

your posts have been thought provoking, and while I was originally a bit put-off, I have come to see the truth in them. In fact, that info was just what I was looking for, only I didn't know it

Hajii,youve just made an old Recluse very happy Tell you what though,if my language or manner ever offends you,or anyone else for that matter,say so straight away!Im an opinionated old shit,but I dont want to actually upset anyone Regards,Cloud

[Peregrino]

[Peregrino]

Hi Cloud,

 

I would still say that _Things Hidden_ is the best place to start for MT, even with the explicit Christian apologetics--it's extremely lucid and comprehensive. _Violence and the Sacred_ is also excellent, does not contain any apologetics, and is filled with thousands of fascinating examples of myth and ritual from the Hellenistic world, Africa, Asia, and the Americas--all presented in a way that makes Joseph Campbell ("human sacrifice enables us to transcend the ego--as long as we are sacrificing someone else!") seem really naive.

 

Sorry if I in turn am coming across as an inveterate Campbell-basher. He was an inspiration for me in my early twenties, and he did spark my curiosity in many ways, but now I see him as a guru of narcissism and willful misreadings of various world traditions. (BTW, in an earlier post on "favorite quotes" I had to bring up that the quote popularly attributed to Chief Seattle, making him sound like a cross between Ralph Nader and Robert Bly, is completely apocryphal, although Campbell quotes it verbatim as if it were authentic.)

 

Ah, another really clear introduction to MT--one that includes some very direct refutations of Joseph Campbell--is Gil Bailie's _Violence Unvelied_. Beyond religious texts, Bailie looks at literary works, current events and pop culture to find ubiquitous evidence of the confrontation of sacrificial and anti-sacrificial mindsets.

 

As a final note, I had to laugh at the unintended connection between my reference to "pacific" (i.e., non-conflictive) mimesis and the current abode of that randomly punctuating language terrorist, aka Franklin Jones.

 

Hmm. . . Did you know that Frankie's body is shutting down and now he's looking for a new "host" so he can "keep walkin' on"? How about it, Cloud--are you worthy to become the next incarnation? Your imitation of his titles indicates that you might just have what it takes to fill his "Adi-Das"! (Groan, I'm too tired to make any puns right now . . .)

 

 

[sean]

Actually, Girard deals with "mimetics," but there is interesting paper comparing mimetics to "memetics"

Oops, yes, I typed unconsciously here. I'm familar with memetics. Glad I slipped though because that does sound like an interesting paper.

 

Girard does account for "appetites" that are prior to social formation, and sexuality can be to a great extent one of them; HOWEVER, he points out that so much of what we often assume to be "given" about our desire--even our sexuality--really is the result of our imitating others, often in a rivalistic way. In the radically individualist culture of most consumer societies, in which millions of "unique" persons assume they are entirely self-created, this can be hard to swallow, but that doesn't make it any less true for me!

Profound point. I'll have to carry this around with me and chew on it a bit. I guess intuitively I would say that our intrinsic more "base" desires (root, sacral, navel) are strongly strongly shaped by the society we live in, but the impulse itself originated in our own bodies. Pathology, including rivalistic power clashes, arises from blockages in the ascension and circulation of our "primordial desire energy". These can be self-imposed and socially (even physically) imposed.

 

Hmmm ... so now I am questioning the deeper possibility of how much of what we call desire actually does not originate as a true biological impulse at all, but is actually taken on, as you say, mimetically. A taking on of false desire, detached from the actual needs and impulses of the body. It's another type of blockage really, no? Reminds me of Alexander Lowen's concept of narcissism. A primary concern for maintaining and projecting an image detached from feeling or staying true to one's actual body sensations. By this definition, American memes strongly encourage the development of narcissism.

 

I apologize if I am coming into this from a strange angle that may or not be very related to mimetics, or is covered in it's basics.

 

Sean

[cloud recluse]

 

...Sorry if I in turn am coming across as an inveterate Campbell-basher. He was an inspiration for me in my early twenties, and he did spark my curiosity in many ways, but now I see him as a guru of narcissism and willful misreadings of various world traditions....

 

. . Did you know that Frankie's body is shutting down and now he's looking for a new "host" so he can "keep walkin' on"? How about it, Cloud--are you worthy to become the next incarnation? Your imitation of his titles indicates that you might just have what it takes to fill his "Adi-Das"! (Groan, I'm too tired to make any puns right now . . .)

Thrash Campbell to peices by all means.I seem to come from the same situation as you in that respect. As for being a Frank receptacle..UUUURRRRGGHH Still,would I get the pacific island and the "gopi Mandala"girls (wink wink,nudge nudge)?

[Peregrino]

I guess intuitively I would say that our intrinsic more "base" desires (root, sacral, navel) are strongly strongly shaped by the society we live in, but the impulse itself originated in our own bodies. Pathology, including rivalistic power clashes, arises from blockages in the ascension and circulation of our "primordial desire energy". These can be self-imposed and socially (even physically) imposed.

 

Hmmm ... so now I am questioning the deeper possibility of how much of what we call desire actually does not originate as a true biological impulse at all, but is actually taken on, as you say, mimetically. A taking on of false desire, detached from the actual needs and impulses of the body. It's another type of blockage really, no? Reminds me of Alexander Lowen's concept of narcissism. A primary concern for maintaining and projecting an image detached from feeling or staying true to one's actual body sensations. By this definition, American memes strongly encourage the development of narcissism.

 

I apologize if I am coming into this from a strange angle that may or not be very related to mimetics, or is covered in it's basics.

 

Sean

 

No need to apologize--that's why I'm here: to expand from my admittedly strong biases. Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing regarding the influence of imitation and the deviation from the actual needs and impulses of the body. Something for me to ponder there . . .

 

And Cloud, we have *got* to start a Bizzuble Free Pimp thread after your Castaneda thread runs its course. (Re: Castaneda, I think _The Power and the Allegory_ said it all. ) There's just too much unintentional comedy diarrheically spewing from that Pacific island palooka's mouth--and herpes sores--not to take advantage of for entertainment purposes!

[cloud recluse]

Peregrino,you are a source of dark & terrible temptation.Do you have the audacity to suggest we should be insulting God-on-Earth Dont you realize he commoits NO ERROR,& is instead graciously reflecting our karma back to us,selflessly taking on the appearance of vulgar sins for the sole purpose of exposing our own! You heartless blasphemer Regards,Cloud.