BOTH SIDES OF NOW

[lienshan]

A way can be Dao is a paradox.

Independent Dao and a name namable is a contradiction.

Independence, named the nonexistent name Heaven and Earth, is the starting point.

Existence is named a matter of tenthousand mothers by accident.

Selfish desires is from studying their beautifulness.

The desire of selfishness is because observing its manifestation.

Both sides of now are identical appearance and different names, together meaning.

Arriving at the darkening dusk goes to the dark of darkness.

The gate of multitude mystery.

 

BOTH SIDES OF NOW

 

Dao daoable is the contradiction the way of independence.

Named can be a name is the paradox an independent name.

Nonexistence named is the starting point of Heaven and Earth.

The name of existing is the matter for tenthousand mothers by accident.

Eternal desireless is because observing its mystery.

Unchanging desireful is from studying their manifestation.

Both sides of now are together appearance and different named.

The identical meaning is to arrive at dark and the exiting of darkening.

Dusk, the multitude beautifulness of darkness, is the gate.

[Marblehead]

And we cannot name the unnamable. Only those things within Heaven and Earth can be named.

 

To try to go where one cannot go is the same thing as going nowhere.

 

Yes, desires frequently prevent us from realizing the unknowable.

 

Better to walk the middle road.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

[Marblehead]

Hi Lienshan,

 

Regretfully, I do not read the Chinese characters so I am at the mercy of those who can.

 

But I agree, there are paradoxes in the TTC. And these can be easily seen as contradictions.

 

When I first started my Taoist path I had a big problem with this. My brain was not aligned to be able to view the same thing from different points of view. At that time all I had was my own point of view.

 

Yes, I have always understood "both sides" to be Mystery and Manifest. And Tao is the Mother of both (One gave birth to two ...).

 

However, in my understanding (no, my understanding does not need be corrected as I am happy with my understanding, hehehe), One (Tao) gave birth to two (Mystery and Chi), two gave birth to three (Manifest) and three gave birth to the ten thousand things.

 

So really there are no 'two sides' but rather movement between between the two; they are both the same thing at different points in time as a result of time and Chi.

 

Therefore, when we name a thing or concept we are only giving it a temporary name so that we can talk about it. But it is not possible to define anything absolutely because of time and Chi's interactions with all that is.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Hi Lienshan,

 

Regretfully, I do not read the Chinese characters so I am at the mercy of those who can.

Hi Marblehead

 

Regretfully, I do not know the subtle nuances of english so I am at the mercy of those who do.

 

Please help me putting my two Chapter 1 translations into 'perfect english':

 

A way can be Dao is a paradox.

Independent Dao and a word namable is a contradiction.

Independence, called the nonexistent name Heaven and Earth, is the starting point.

Existence is named a matter of tenthousand mothers by accident.

Selfish desires is from studying their beautifulness.

The desire of selfishness is because observing its manifestation.

Both sides of now is the same appearance and together meaning of different words.

Arriving at the darkening dusk goes to the dark of darkness.

The gate of multitude mystery.

 

Dao daoable is the contradiction the way of independence.

Called can be a name is the paradox an independent word.

Nonexistence named is the starting point of Heaven and Earth.

Nameing the existing is the matter for tenthousand mothers by accident.

Eternal desireless is because observing its mystery.

Unchanging desireful is from studying their manifestation.

Both sides of now is a together appearance and different words.

The same meaning is to arrive at dark and the exiting of darkening.

Dusk, the multitude beautifulness of darkness, is the gate.

 

The corresponding two ways of breaking the original chinese text into sentences are:

 

4 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1

6 characters: heng2 dao4 ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1

8 characters: heng2 ming2 wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3

7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4

7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4

7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3

8 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4

6 characters: zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2

4 characters: zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2

 

6 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4

6 characters: ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2

6 characters: wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3

7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4

7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4

7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3

6 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2

6 characters: tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1

6 characters: you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2

 

The four columns of characters in bold (the first and the last character of each sentence)

make these four sentences:

 

Is a way independent independence and is existence selfish selfishness?

Now both sides are arriving at a multitude!

 

Is a paradox the beginning of contradiction?

Accident is the manifestation of beautifulness pronounced the gate of dark!

 

Is Dao called nonexistence existing?

Independence and independent are now both sides of the same dusk!

 

Is a way the word a starting point?

Accident is the manifestation of mystery named the gate of exiting!

[Marblehead]

Hi Lienshan,

 

I will send you a PM.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

[lienshan]

 

Better to walk the middle road.

The middle roads of the two texts are in bold:

 

4 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1

6 characters: heng2 dao4 ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1

8 characters: heng2 ming2 wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3

7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4

7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4

7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3

8 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4

6 characters: zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2

4 characters: zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2

 

6 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4

6 characters: ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2

6 characters: wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3

7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4

7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4

7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3

6 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2

6 characters: tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1

6 characters: you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2

 

6 - 7 - 6 - 6 - 7 - 6 (even - odd - even - even - odd - even)

corresponds to hexagram 29 (broken - whole - broken - broken - whole - broken)

in ancient chinese numerology; that's the way hexagrams were previously shown.

 

The Image-text of hexagram 29 is according to Richard Wilhelm:

 

Water flows on uninterruptedly and reaches its goal:

The image of the Abysmal repeated.

Thus the superior man walks in lasting virtue

And carries on the business of teaching.

[Marblehead]

 

Water flows on uninterruptedly and reaches its goal:

The image of the Abysmal repeated.

Thus the superior man walks in lasting virtue

And carries on the business of teaching.

 

 

Well, yeah, although water is sometimes interrupted it does eventually reach it destination. (I didn't use the word "goal" on purpose as I wouldn't want to suggest that water has a goal.)

 

And then the cycle begins again. There have been guesstimates as to how long it take every dorp of water on Earth to make a full cycle.

 

And I agree, the superior man teaches without words (mostly). Just by being and setting the example he is teaching others how one should live their life.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

dao ke dao fei heng dao

ming ke ming fei heng ming

 

ke means 'can be' or makes adverbs (-able)

 

fei means 'isn't' or is a negative (un-, contradiction, paradox)

 

An example from ancient chinese philosophy:

 

bai ma fei ma ke hu (white horse isn't horse can be ?)

 

The subject after 'fei' must be somthing that is according to one of the three models (fa):

1. Something confirmed by former sage kings.

2. Something real (a matter of fact)

3. Something benefitting (the Will of Heaven)

 

The term 'heng dao' isn't a model (fa) and translating fei before heng dao as isn't is wrong.

No contemporary reader would read fei as isn't, and that's why fei means 'a negative'.

 

fei occur twice and must thus be read/translated different: contradiction, paradox or un-.

Edited August 8, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Well, piecing together what you just presented I read:

 

Tao can be Tao isn't eternal Tao.

 

So couldn't we say:

 

The Tao that can be (spoken of or, conceptualized) isn't the eternal Tao.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Well, piecing together what you just presented I read:

 

Tao can be Tao isn't eternal Tao.

I read the 7th line as an inplicit readers guide: 'same words have different meanings'

That'll say: the three Tao characters of line 1 must be read as three different characters.

That'll say: all repeated characters in the chapter 1 must be read as different characters.

 

An example:

 

dao ke dao fei heng dao

ming ke ming fei heng ming

 

A way wayable is unindependent Dao

The sentence can be the word isn't a clause of independence

 

The repeated characters are:

 

dao = a way, way(able), Dao

ke = -able, can be

fei = -un, isn't

heng = (un)independent, independence

ming = sentence, word, clause

 

The term 'heng ming' meaning a clause of independence is fa,

because the grammar rule of independent clauses is confirmed by sage kings.

That's why 'fei' means 'isn't' in line 2.

 

Laozi uses 'fei' as the double negative 'unindependence' to create the meaning:

A way wayable isn't independent Dao

 

Eternal is a positive word and 'fei' can't thus be used in the same way as independent.

But unchanging is a negative word and can be used in the same way in line 1:

 

A way wayable is ununchanging Dao

The sentence can be the word isn't the book of change

 

My overall view at the nine lines is:

 

line 1: a way + wayable = both sides of independent Dao

line 2: ( + ) = both sides of an independent clause

line 3: Heaven + Earth = both sides of the starting point

line 4: 10.000 + matter = both sides of existence

line 5: object + subject = both sides of nondesire

line 6: subject + object = both sides of desire

line 7: before + after = both sides of now

line 8: evening dusk + morning dusk = both sides of dark

line 9: multitude + subtlety = both sides of a gate

[Marblehead]

Okay. Where do I go from here?

 

I couldn't help but notice your use of the phrase "both sides". This inspires two thoughts: 1.) Dualities, and 2.) we must look at both sides to see the whole.

 

Wayne Wang's translation of line 1 reads: Tao may be spoken of and it is not a constant Tao.

 

This might be what you are pointing at.

 

Of course, how one translates the Chinese characters is going to be subject to that person's base of knowledge.

 

I still prefer Henricks' translation though, which reads: As for the Way, the Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way.

 

Of course, most translations use the word "Tao" instead of "Way".

 

I think that what you are suggesting as to how the line should be translated would only add to the difficulty of understanding the base concepts. Afterall, it is not the words that are important but rather the ideas they convey.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Okay. Where do I go from here?

Go to line 3: wu ming tian di zhi shi

 

The characters in bold are the independent clause of the line.

The character di means Earth or is an auxillary character creating adverbs (-ly):

The independent clause can thus be translated: named heavenly

The character zhi can be an auxillary character cancelling the independence of a clause.

Line 3 can thus be translated: nonexistence, named heavenly, the starting point ... that'll say:

 

The starting point of nonexistence is named heavenly.

 

I read this as expressing Laozi's view at the third fa: Heaven's Will.

 

The traditional translation of line 3 is like this:

 

The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth

 

The difference between the two translations is in my opinion,

that the latter could have been written by any 1th year student,

while the first only can have been written by a high educated man,

who guides his reader by mentioning the independent clause in line 2,

so that a reader has a chance to read zhi in the way it is meant to be read.

Edited August 9, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

The starting point of nonexistence is named heavenly.

 

Actually, you are pretty close to Wang's translation for this line although you use different words.

 

His reads: As Wu, it marks the beginning of all beings;

 

And actually I would like yours better if your word "heavenly" were the word "Wu" or as I prefer, "Mystery".

 

But I'm not saying that Wang's translation is not valid.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Say speakable unindependent Dao.

The term can be a title isn't the independent clause.

The starting point of nonexistence is named heavenly.

Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers by accident.

Eternal desireless is because observing its beauty.

Unchanging desireful is from studying their materialisation.

Both sides of now are same appearance and different words.

The united meaning is to arrive at dark and the exit of darkening.

The gate of dawn is the multitude mystery of darkness.

 

I think that I found 'the missing link' of the first lines

 

Line 2 tells, that the independent clause (verb + subject) isn't 'can be a title'.

The title of Dao in line 1 is the paradoxal 'speakable unindependent'.

The independent clause must thus be the first dao and the last dao of the line.

dao means Dao but can too mean way, path, method, to say, to speak

That'll say, that the first dao is the verb say and the second dao is the subject Dao.

 

Line 3 tells, that the starting point of nonexistence is the title heavenly.

Dao has another title and is thus not nonexistence.

 

The title 'speakable unindependent' contains a doublenegative.

It might be the same as the title 'unspeakable independent'?

[Marblehead]

 

I think that I found 'the missing link' of the first lines

 

 

I'm glad you are happy with your progress.

 

One thing I learned early on is that Tao (Dao) is used as a noun and as a verb and it is important to understand the usage of the word in various sentences.

 

Most translations seem to translate it as a noun and that is why I am glad that I bought Henricks' translation because he uses the word 'Way' almost exclusively.

 

Okay, I do feel a little more comfortable with this version of Chapter 1. The grammer is clunky but you are still working with a literal translation.

 

And yes, both sides of Tao speak to Wu and Yo (Mystery and Manifest). They are the same but their appearance is different therefore we give them different names.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Okay, I do feel a little more comfortable with this version of Chapter 1.

Here is a little more:

 

6 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4

6 characters: ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2

6 characters: wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3

6 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3

7 characters: gu4 heng2-wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4

6 characters: heng2-you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3

6 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2

6 characters: tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1

6 characters: you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2

 

6 - 7 - 6 (even - odd - even)

corresponds to trigram Water (broken line - whole line - broken line)

 

The first line of the trigram Water Image text is shui jian zhi xi kan meaning:

 

water flows reaching repeatedly the pit

water flows reaching the repeated pit

 

Both meanings are seemingly correct? It's the same story with the line 1 of chapter 1:

 

Say speakable unindependent Dao

Say unspeakable independent Dao

 

That's what's today is called a false dilemma!

The solution is quite simple to cancell the contradictionairy term:

 

water flows into the pit

 

Say Dao

The term can be a title isn't the independent clause.

The starting point of nonexistence is named heavenly.

Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers.

Thus is the desire of selfishness caused by observing their beauty.

Selfish desires comes from studying its manifestation.

Both sides of now are same appearance and different words.

The united meaning is to arrive at dark and the exit of darkening.

The gate of dawn is the multitude mystery of darkness.

[Marblehead]

Now I have a problem with line 5:

 

Thus is the desire of selfishness caused by observing their beauty.

 

Shouldn't that be speaking to the concept of desireless?

 

That is,

 

Without desire we view 'wu', the Mystery,

 

then line 6:

 

With desire we view 'yo', the Manifest.

 

These would be your 'two sides of now'.

 

And I do agree, both are present in the Now.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

I return to line 5 in my next posting,

because I have something to say about the Water Image text of the Zhouyi.

Richard Wilhelm (and the confucians) read the text like this:

 

shui jian zhi xi kan

jun zi yi chang de

xing xi jiao shi

 

Water flows on uninterruptedly and reaches its foal:

The image of the Abysmal repeated.

Thus the superior man walks in lasting virtue

And carries on the business of teaching.

 

I read the text like this:

 

shui jian zhi xi

kan jun zi yi

chang de xing xi

jiao shi

 

Water flowing arrives at learning.

Danger king people commanding.

Constant De exits learning.

Teach serving!

 

(chang de corresponds to chang dao in the received chapter 1 versions of Dao De Jing)

 

That's why I think, that the number of characters in each line is important.

The numbers 6 and 9 represents the changing lines in the Zhouyi book of change,

but an histographer should be able to divine by three divination methods, and

the many lines of 6 characters indicate, that 7 and 8 were changing lines in

the method he used to construct chapter 1.

That'll say: 6 - 7 - 6 means trigram Water changing to trigram Earth.

[Marblehead]

Yeah. I already figured you are deep into numerology.

 

And then, I know nothing of the i-ching as I was never drawn to it.

 

"Teach serving" doesn't sound right to me but then, considering the subject is water, and that water serves all life, perhaps "Teach serving" is appropriate.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Without desire we view 'wu', the Mystery,

Line 3: The starting point of nonexistence (wu) is named heavenly

 

The heavenly Mystery ???

 

 

Thus is the desire of selfishness caused by observing their beauty.

 

Shouldn't that be speaking to the concept of desireless?

The litteral translation is:

 

selfishness desire/desires because to observe its/their beauty/mystery

 

My pick relates to the mothers in line 4. Laozi was like I am a man. I think that he too had a beautiful wife,

that he loved and desired is zi ran. Desireless? Then he must have had a really ugly wife

 

 

With desire we view 'yo', the Manifest.

The litteral translation is:

 

Selfish desires/desire comes from studying their/its manifestation.

 

My pick relates to the existent (the child) in line 4. Laozi lived at a time, where common people were owned.

A newborn child meant the same to the chinese nobility, as a newborn calf means to nowadays farmers.

Laozi was against the slavery, but a man in his high position had to 'tiptoe' such a point of view.

But ofcourse, selfish desire grows the more money you study on the table just in front of you.

 

Yeah. I already figured you are deep into numerology.

I'm a diviner ... a diviner of horseraces

Edited August 10, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Line 3: The starting point of nonexistence (wu) is named heavenly

 

The heavenly Mystery ???

 

No. That wouldn't work. Both words are speaking to the same base word. Just my personal bias but the word 'heavenly' has too many connotations. Of course, I am very comfortable with the word "Mystery" that is an additional bias of mine.

 

The litteral translation is:

 

selfishness desire/desires because to observe its/their beauty/mystery

 

My pick relates to the mothers in line 4. Laozi was like I am a man. I think that he too had a beautiful wife,

that he loved and desired is zi ran. Desireless? Then he must have had a really ugly wife

 

Hehehe. Yeah, we can't be suggesting that he had an ugly wife now, can we?

 

Selfless desires to observe its mystery. (I have a problem with the word 'selfishness' in that line.

 

The litteral translation is:

 

Selfish desires/desire comes from studying their/its manifestation.

 

My pick relates to the existent (the child) in line 4. Laozi lived at a time, where common people were owned.

A newborn child meant the same to the chinese nobility, as a newborn calf means to nowadays farmers.

Laozi was against the slavery, but a man in his high position had to 'tiptoe' such a point of view.

But ofcourse, selfish desire grows the more money you study on the table just in front of you.

 

I can go along with that. 'Selfish desire comes from studying its manifestations.'

 

 

I'm a diviner ... a diviner of horseraces

 

Hehehe. Well, hopefully you do spend a little time studying the horses' attributes.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Selfless desires to observe its mystery. (I have a problem with the word 'selfishness' in that line.

6 characters: dao ke dao fei heng dao

6 characters: ming ke ming fei heng ming

6 characters: wu ming tian di zhi shi

6 characters: you ming wan wu zhi mu

7 characters: gu heng-wu yu yi guan qi miao

6 characters: heng-you yu yi guan qi jiao

6 characters: ci-liang-zhe tong chu er yi ming

6 characters: tong wei zhi xuan xuan zhi

6 characters: you xuan zhong miao zhi men

 

There are according to my counting three samples of more characters that Laozi treats as one character.

ci-liang-zhe means 'both sides of now' meant to be read as one single word.

heng-wu and heng-you are too new words invented by Laozi this way:

 

The name of the Zhouyi hexagram 32 is heng meaning independent.

The name of the Guicang hexagram 32 is heng wo meaning selfish (independent I)

 

Laozi combined heng+wu and heng+you expressing two new variations of 'selfish':

 

heng+you = selfish existing = I can be selfish = selfish as a personal matter

heng+wu = selfish nonexisting = I cannot be selfishness = selfish in general

 

I read his heng-wu selfishness as that what we all share as human beings to survive,

and to live a satisfying socalled normal and ordinary life, knowing when enough is enough.

I read his heng+you selfish as the wish of more, not knowing when enough is enough.

 

The desire of selfishness might be understood as the desire of knowing when enough is enough?

I don't think that neither selfless nor unselfish fit with knowing when enough is enough.

[Marblehead]

heng+wu = selfish nonexisting = I cannot be selfishness = selfish in general

 

My brain is still telling me that this is equal to selfless. That is, selfish is nonexisting.

 

The desire of selfishness might be understood as the desire of knowing when enough is enough?

I don't think that neither selfless nor unselfish fit with knowing when enough is enough.

 

True. We experience enough in the yo state, the selfish state. But perhaps it is only after we have experienced the wu state that we understand the significance of knowing when we have enough.

 

Peace & Love!