BOTH SIDES OF NOW

[lienshan]

Line 4: The mothers are named the existence of the tenthousand things.

Line 9: The gate darkens the twilights of the multitudinous mystery.

Line 3: The starting point is named the nonexistence of the heavenly ...

 

This is still tricky because using the term "starting point" suggests there was an original beginning

The problem of treating the three lines equally is the verbs:

 

The gate darkens, if the gate is synonymous with the Ji Gate, that'll say the scholars gathering at the Ji Gate.

The mothers name (a better pick than are named) their children.

The starting point names the nonexistence of the heavenly ...

 

Who is 'the starting point'?

 

That's the big question, no matter how you translate shi (origin, beginning, starting point).

[Marblehead]

The problem of treating the three lines equally is the verbs:

 

The gate darkens, if the gate is synonymous with the Ji Gate, that'll say the scholars gathering at the Ji Gate.

The mothers name (a better pick than are named) their children.

The starting point names the nonexistence of the heavenly ...

 

Who is 'the starting point'?

 

That's the big question, no matter how you translate shi (origin, beginning, starting point).

 

Hehehe. I'm not trying to change your mind. What you have is fine if you like it.

 

There really is no starting point. Sure, there was a starting point for this cycle but that point was also the ending point of the previous cycle.

 

I hold to the concept of Tzujan, which, in my understanding, are the processes of Tao and the current universe so there is no noun that is the 'who' of the starting point. Tzujan is a verb, in my understanding.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

There really is no starting point.

OK ... who was the first ?

 

Say speakable unindependent Dao.

The term can be a title isn't an independent clause.

The first entitles the nonexistence of the Heavenly ...

The mothers names the existence of the tenthousand things.

The former nonexistence desires by means of looking at their beauty.

A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation.

Both sides of now are the same appearance and different compliments.

Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits.

The gate darkens the twilights of the multitudinous mystery.

 

Some historical 'facts':

 

'the first' was King Wu, the first Zhou emperor entitled 'Heavenly Son' (tian zi).

King Wu entitled posthumuous his father King Wen as 'Heavenly Son' (tian zi).

King Wen (the author of the Zhouyi) died two years before the Zhou conquest 1045 BC.

Servants addressed to a 'Son of Heaven' by speaking 'wan sui ye' (tenthousands years indeed).

The 'Son of Heaven' referred to himself by saying 'wu' (we)

(the second character of Guicang hexagram 32 name 'heng wu' (independent I = selfish)

[Marblehead]

OK ... who was the first ?

 

 

There was no 'first'. Sorry. There was someone before him who allowed for King Wu to be called the first. And there was someone before that someone, and there was some thing that allowed for that someone, etc., etc.

 

Sheeesh! That sounds like VJ's dependant origination. (But I am still going to reify all of them. Hehehe)

 

Cycles and reversion. Everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be. They (everything) just take different forms over time.

 

No beginning, no end, only changes.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

No beginning, no end, only changes.

Those who claim

that there is no first

are them

who always come too late

and thus miss the first

but never the end.

[Marblehead]

Those who claim

that there is no first

are them

who always come too late

and thus miss the first

but never the end.

 

I disagree. If there was a first (which there was not, IMO) then everyone cannot be there at the beginning, only the first can be there. And, if you leave early you never see the end either.

 

And even if there was a first, what caused the first to come into existence? There had to be somnething before the first to create the first. And there had to be something before that that created that which created the first.

 

Everything has always existed is the only fair and logical explanation.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Say, speakable unindependent, Dao.

The term 'can be a title' is not an independent clause.

The first, the worldly heaven, is entitled the nonexistent.

The mother, the material tenthousand, is named the existent.

Death, the desire of single nonexisting, uses to observe her beauty.

A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation.

Both sides of now are the same appearance and different words.

Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits.

The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights.

 

Dao De Jing Chapter 1 contains a reading of the hexagram 32 Heng Image text:

 

lei ...... feng .................... thunder ..... air

heng .. jun ...................... single ........ ruler

zi ....... yi ........................ son ........... uses

li ........ bu ....................... enthrone ... do not

yi ....... fang .................... change ...... the way

 

The hexagram 32 Heng Image text read horisontally:

 

The air of thunder, the son of a single ruler, uses to enthrone the unchanging way

 

The 1th vertical line: thunder single son enthrones change

The 2th vertical line: air ruler uses do not the way

 

 

The 'nonexistent' in the 3th line of Dao De Jing chapter 1 is 'thunder'.

The 'existent' in the 4th line of Dao De Jing chapter 1 is 'air'.

 

The horisontal Image text line corresponds to the 5th line of Dao De Jing chapter 1,

that shows the confucian version of the horisontal line,

when written the way Confucius coined the term 'jun zi'

Edited August 19, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Need I say I don't like line 5? Hehehe.

 

Death, the desire of single nonexisting, uses to observe her beauty.

 

Actually, the desire of death is very non-Taoist. Taoism is based in the preservation of life.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

The 5th line is mentioned in Zhuangzi chapter 33 (the world). It's said that:

 

'the Dao of Shen Dao is the Dao for the dead'

[Marblehead]

The 5th line is mentioned in Zhuangzi chapter 33 (the world). It's said that:

 

'the Dao of Shen Dao is the Dao for the dead'

 

Burton Watson's translation of that:

 

"The teachings of Shen Tao are not rules for the living but ideals for a dead man. No wonder he is looked on as peculiar!"

 

Now tell me, should I worry about things that could be after I am dead or should I be concerned with things that effect me while I am alive?

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Now tell me, should I worry about things that could be after I am dead

or should I be concerned with things that effect me while I am alive?

My own thumb rule is,

that if I worry in beforehand,

then I get the worries twice.

 

 

The death in the 5th line is related to an important grammatical problem:

 

if 'jun zi' is read/translated as 'the son of the ruler',

then is 'jun zi yi' not an independent clause.

 

if 'jun zi' is read/translated as 'the gentleman',

then is 'jun zi yi' an independent clause.

 

The text read/translated is 'Mountains Standing Together'.

A 'book' that originally was 64 orally transmitted verses.

'Mountains Standing Together' was composed around 1900-1800 BC.

It's the first 'daoist' book, if 'jun zi yi' is not an independent clause!

 

Here's an example from Mountains Standing Together, the verse about 'Strength':

 

tian ..... xing .................... heaven ...... circulation

jian ..... jun ..................... strong ........ ruler

zi ........ yi ....................... son ............ uses

zi ........ jiang ................... its own ...... boundary line

bu ....... xi ....................... not ............. breathing

 

The verse read horisontally:

 

The cirkulation of heaven, the son of a strong ruler, uses its own boundary line not breathing

 

The 1th vertical line: heaven strong son its own not

The 2th vertical line: cirkulation ruler uses boundary line breathing

 

 

The verse when read/translated with 'jun zi yi' as the independent clause:

 

The movement of heaven is full of power.

Thus the gentleman makes himself strong and untiring.

[Marblehead]

My own thumb rule is,

that if I worry in beforehand,

then I get the worries twice.

 

Exactly!

 

I can't do the crypology with you so I will ignore that. Hehehe.

 

 

The verse when read/translated with 'jun zi yi' as the independent clause:

 

The movement of heaven is full of power.

Thus the gentleman makes himself strong and untiring.

 

Yes, because the gentleman is fed by the mother (Heaven).

 

I do agree that Taoist Philosophy existed long before Lao Tzu wrote the TTC.

 

Peace & Love!

[xabir2005]

I think many translations of TTC are way out.

 

I almost didn't recognise that it was the first chapter of TTC.

Edited August 20, 2010 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Here's something more acceptable.

The DAO that can be expressed

is not the eternal DAO.

The name that can be named

is not the eternal name.

 

“Non-existence” I call the beginning of Heaven and Earth.

“Existence” I call the mother of individual beings.

 

Therefore does the direction towards non-existence

lead to the sight of the miraculous essence,

the direction towards existence

to the sight of spatial limitations.

 

Both are one in origin

and different only in name.

In its unity it is called the secret.

The secret’s still deeper secret

is the gateway through which all miracles emerge.

 

Translated into German by Richard Wilhelm (1910),

thence into English by H.G. Ostwald (1985)

 

or

The tau (reason) which can be tau-ed (reasoned) is not the Eternal Tau (Reason). The name which can be named is not the Eternal Name.

 

Non-existence is named the Antecedent of heaven and earth; and Existence is named the Mother of all things. In eternal non-existence, therefore, man seeks to pierce the primordial mystery; and, in eternal existence, to behold the issues of the Universe. But these two are one and the same, and differ only in name.

 

This sameness (or existence and non-existence) I call the abyss — the abyss of abysses — the gate of all mystery.

 

Translated by John Chalmers (1868)

Edited August 20, 2010 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

 

Translated into German by Richard Wilhelm (1910),

thence into English by H.G. Ostwald (1985)[/i]

 

 

I like that translation. Thanks for sharing.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Here's something more acceptable.

Is distinguishing acceptable and more acceptable the way?

 

 

Need I say I don't like line 5? Hehehe.

I listen to your intuition:

 

Say, speakable unindependent, Dao.

The term 'can be a title' is not an independent clause.

The first, the worldly heaven, is entitled the nonexistent.

The mother, the material tenthousand, is named the existent.

The independence of death, the desire of nonexisting, uses to observe their mystery.

A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation.

Both sides of now are the same appearance and different words.

Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits.

The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights.

 

Line 5 is meant to be read as:

 

The independence of death, the desire of nonexistence, uses to observe the dead independent mystery.

 

that have the same line structure as the Image text of hexagram 32 HENG:

 

The air of thunder, the son of a single ruler, uses to enthrone the not changing way.

 

The independent clause of the last line is the air uses

The independent clause changes (when jun zi = superior man) to the superior man uses

 

Lao Dan's pointe is, that Confucius's the superior man can be inserted in the 5th line thus:

 

Death and independence are nonexistence.

The superior man uses to observe the dead independent mystery.

 

(That's the way Richard Wilhelm translate the Image text of hexagram 32 HENG)

Edited August 20, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Line 5 is meant to be read as:

 

The independence of death, the desire of nonexistence, uses to observe the dead independent mystery.

 

 

Oh! My Goodness. I still don't like it. (Sorry. Hehehe.)

 

First, Mystery is not dead. It is very much alive and full of life.

 

Secondly, if the first four words were removed and the sentence started out "The death of desire ..." would be much more acceptable. I know you are working with the word 'independence' but in my mind it just doesn't fit in here to produce a logical statement.

 

Peace & Love!

[xabir2005]

Is distinguishing acceptable and more acceptable the way?

Sorry, but I just feel a good translation of TTC will go a long way helping westerners understand TTC without relying on the Chinese version.

 

And unfortunately, most are way off and confusing.

Edited August 21, 2010 by xabir2005

[It's a trap]

A way can be Dao is a paradox.

Independent Dao and a name namable is a contradiction.

Independence, named the nonexistent name Heaven and Earth, is the starting point.

Existence is named a matter of tenthousand mothers by accident.

Selfish desires is from studying their beautifulness.

The desire of selfishness is because observing its manifestation.

Both sides of now are identical appearance and different names, together meaning.

Arriving at the darkening dusk goes to the dark of darkness.

The gate of multitude mystery.

 

BOTH SIDES OF NOW

 

Dao daoable is the contradiction the way of independence.

Named can be a name is the paradox an independent name.

Nonexistence named is the starting point of Heaven and Earth.

The name of existing is the matter for tenthousand mothers by accident.

Eternal desireless is because observing its mystery.

Unchanging desireful is from studying their manifestation.

Both sides of now are together appearance and different named.

The identical meaning is to arrive at dark and the exiting of darkening.

Dusk, the multitude beautifulness of darkness, is the gate.

 

Off topic, but I love your Getafix avatar! Or as you would say in Denmark, Miraculix.

[lienshan]

Sorry, but I just feel a good translation of TTC will go a long way helping westerners understand TTC without relying on the Chinese version.

 

And unfortunately, most are way off and confusing.

Chapter 1 deals with the difference between confucianism and daoism,

which is expressed in the reading of the term 'jun zi'.

 

Confucians read the term as an independent clause: the ruler is the son (the superior man)

Daoists read the term as an unindependent clause: the son of the ruler (ruler and son)

 

Chapter 25 deals with the difference between Shen Daoism and daoism,

which is expressed in the reading of the term 'da dao'.

 

Shen Daoists read the term as an independent clause: Dao is great (great Dao)

Daoists read the term as an unindependent clause: the Dao of the great great and Dao

 

Consequently:

 

Any Dao De Jing Chapter 1 line 1 translation,

that ends with 'constant Dao', 'eternal Dao', 'unchanging Dao', 'you name it',

is a Confucian, Shen Daonistic translation.

[lienshan]

Say 'the unspeakable sovereign' Dao.

The term 'can be a title' isn't an independent clause.

The first, the worldly heaven, is nonexistence entitled.

The mother, the material tenthousand, is existence named.

Therefore: a bachelor without desire used to study her beauty.

A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation.

Both sides of now are similar appearance and different words.

Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits.

The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights.

 

(Confucius left his wife and became a bachelor)

 

 

I've really enjoyed translating Lao Dan's incredible text.

I might return with a translation of his chapter 25

 

You have now been warned

[Marblehead]

Say 'the unspeakable sovereign' Dao.

The term 'can be a title' isn't an independent clause.

The first, the worldly heaven, is nonexistence entitled.

The mother, the material tenthousand, is existence named.

Therefore: a bachelor without desire used to study her beauty.

A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation.

Both sides of now are similar appearance and different words.

Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits.

The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights.

 

(Confucius left his wife and became a bachelor)

 

 

I've really enjoyed translating Lao Dan's incredible text.

I might return with a translation of his chapter 25

 

You have now been warned

 

Hehehe. Well, if I had my choice I would leave Confucius out of this since I doubt that it can be said that he was a Taoist. Just saw a program on TV a few nights ago on him and his life.

 

Well, I regret to inform you that I still like Henricks' translation better than yours but don't feel bad about that since Henricks' translation is my favorite.

 

You go ahead on with Chapter 25 whenever you are ready. I do enjoy talking about Taoist philosophy and you have inspired some nice thoughts in my mind.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Well, I regret to inform you that I still like Henricks' translation better than yours

but don't feel bad about that since Henricks' translation is my favorite.

I don't feel bad, if you prefer a translation with 3 lines in wrong reading direction.

The diviner Lao Dan "watermarked" these 3 lines using hexagram related characters:

The lines 3, 4 and 9 (the even-odd hexagram no.) must be read from right to left.

 

line 1: hex 43 Guai (the speaking staff) hex 44 Gou (the sovereign queen)

line 2: hex 7 Shi (the leader) hex 8 Bi (the alliance)

line 3: hex 4 Meng (the ignorance) hex 3 Zhun (the initial difficulties)

line 4: hex 44 Gou (the sovereign queen) hex 43 Guai (the speaking staff)

line 5: hex 15 Qian (the grey rat) hex 16 Yu (the great illusion)

line 6: hex 35 Jin (the reward) hex 36 Ming Yi (the twilights)

line 7: hex 59 Huan (the enlightening) hex 60 Jie (the formulation)

line 8: hex 61 Zhong Fu (the inner truth) hex 62 Xiao Guo (the flying bird)

line 9: hex 36 Ming Yi (the twilights) hex 35 Jin (the reward)

 

line 1: Say 'the unspeakable sovereign' Dao.

line 2: The term 'can be a title' isn't an independent clause.

line 3: The first, the worldly heaven, is nonexistence entitled.

line 4: The mother, the material tenthousand, is existence named.

line 5: Therefore: a bachelor without desire used to study her subtlety.

line 6: A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation.

line 7: Both sides of now are a similar appearance and different words.

line 8: Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits.

line 9: The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights.

 

I know that you aren't interested in divination, so put in short:

 

The diviner Lao Dan "watermarked" the three lines in order to make

the six other lines form a triple divination based on the numbers

of characters in each of these lines. The seventh line is tricky:

If the Mawangdui version is original, then there are six characters.

If the Received version is original, then the first 3 charaters are 1.

The triple divination are three versions of hexagram 15 "the grey rat":

 

Zhouyi 668766 = Qian zhi Xiao Chu = hex 15 goes to hex 9 = hex 15.1,2,5,6

 

Guicang 668766 = Ling zhi ba = hex 15 goes to hex 61 = hex 15.1,2,3,5,6

(line 4 is what's left, when Ling becomes Zhong Fu)

 

Lianshan 668766 = Ling zhi Xiao Guo = hex 15 goes to hex 62 = hex 15.4

(I'm still exploring this ancient divination method)

 

"the grey rat" = Confucius

[Marblehead]

I know that you aren't interested in divination ...

 

You got that right. Hehehe.

 

"the grey rat" = Confucius

 

That was funny. Actually, I think that Taoists don't give Confucius as much credit as he deserves.

 

Peace & Love!