Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Vajrahridaya]

VJ,

We can not force prove anything to another and the more we try the deeper the ditch we dig.

 

Proverbs 26: 27, "Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him"

 

Om

 

Who is force proving? Other people are stating their views and I'm stating the Buddhas.

 

If it pushes your buttons, then check the wiring of those buttons, they are causing the owner of these buttons bondage.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

More arrogance, perhaps narcissistic arrogance even?

 

I'm not angry. Maybe you think you can read energy online because you have incredible meditations where you realize dependent origination? I don't think you can actually defend your point of view, actually, so you retreat into telling me I'm angry. Perhaps you are not as sure in your viewpoint and beliefs as you think you are??

 

Something I've noticed about you Vaj, you seem to specialize in telling people what they are feeling. I get your modus operandi. Plus, for an unattached dude, you're pretty attached to your views and being right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited August 8, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

It seems then that a mystic might say that without direct experience of the Mystery of God, you wouldn't be able to understand.

 

Taking up an experience as proof of an ultimate and self standing existence is considered a clinging and the actual seed to re-becoming through future lives of ignorance. This ignorance is very deep and subtle. The Buddha subverts this very deep and subtle attachment to an ultimate existence deep within the mind-stream through his awakened insight of dependent origination/emptiness as well as his explanation of the 8 jhanas and the 31 realms associated with the different stages of meditative absorption. This insight is not in alignment with the mysticism of Theists or Monism of any type.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I'm not angry.

 

 

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

:lol: You still haven't convinced me of the correctness of the deep and subtle ignorance of the non-Buddhist world. All your answers are arrogant, Young Master Vajra. It permeates your view. Despite all your spinning of elaborate webs of Buddhist wordage, I don't really think you know what you are talking about, when it comes right down to it. "Taking up an experience as proof of an ultimate and self standing existence"...what experience are you talking about?

Edited August 8, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Sunya]

Oh well, indeed.

 

I don't see how Nisargadatta is incomplete because he doesn't include your Buddhist concept of dependent origination.

 

You feed the fire and then get upset when flames erupt

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I'm not upset. Just sick of dismissal of other's spirituality if it's non-Buddhist. Plus, he can't really explain why he is so dismissive.

[Vajrahridaya]

"Taking up an experience as proof of an ultimate and self standing existence"...what experience are you talking about?

 

Read this...

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/15218-help-explain-a-tiny-part-of-the-shurangama-sutra/page__view__findpost__p__205678

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jh%C4%81na

 

and this...

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

 

Meditate on it and be honest with yourself.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm not upset. Just sick of dismissal of other's spirituality if it's non-Buddhist. Plus, he can't really explain why he is so dismissive.

 

Sure I have, endlessly.

 

EDIT:

Actually... because you don't understand the Buddhas teachings is just so. I wish you the best!

Edited August 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

I'm not upset. Just sick of dismissal of other's spirituality if it's non-Buddhist. Plus, he can't really explain why he is so dismissive.

 

But why do you care so much? Its my observation that people like you get upset but you guys are the ones that fan the flames. He's just a very enthusiastic person, lol. I love him but I disagree that the emptiness teachings need to be shoved down everyone's throats. If we look at the Buddha as an example, he taught according to people's conditions. Some were taught no-self, others were taught Self. Teaching no-self to those who need Self can be extremely detrimental. Learning from him, I don't participate in these discussions anymore since I'm unable to know exactly what sort of teachings someone needs. But I do agree that ultimately emptiness is a higher realization than nondual Self and I've explained many times why.

Edited August 8, 2010 by mikaelz

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Because Vj comes in to every thread to announce the superiority of Buddhism and dependent origination. He came in here to say that Nisargadatta is nice, but he didn't realize dependent origination, so, "oh well". Dismissed. Really kind of deflates the nice discussion. He does this over and over again even though people point it out to him. He doesn't seem very mature in his inability to rein his arrogance in. So, I fan the flames of pointing out his arrogance in wandering through taobums injecting his Buddhist views on non-Buddhist threads. Too bad.

 

He then points me in the direction of long Buddhist articles that supposedly explain his position, but don't. It's like debating a fundamentalist who keeps quoting the Bible to you. If he blunders his way into non-Buddhist threads, he should be able to succinctly state what he means without linking to these technical articles.

 

I challenge him because I think he is wrong, and lies to throw water on every other point of view as being below the Buddha's. He is a fundamentalist, and fundamentalists are annoying at best. When I ask him to clarify, he retreats into telling me I'm angry.

 

Mikaelz, why do I care so much? Because he ruins a lot of good discussions with his arrogant Buddhism. I have read and studied Nisargadatta, and for someone to wander in and dismiss things, spoils the discussion. Plus, he can't really defend his dismissal.

Edited August 8, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

But why do you care so much? Its my observation that people like you get upset but you guys are the ones that fan the flames. He's just a very enthusiastic person, lol. I love him but I disagree that the emptiness teachings need to be shoved down everyone's throats. If we look at the Buddha as an example, he taught according to people's conditions. Some were taught no-self, others were taught Self. Teaching no-self to those who need Self can be extremely detrimental. Learning from him, I don't participate in these discussions anymore since I'm unable to know exactly what sort of teachings someone needs. But I do agree that ultimately emptiness is a higher realization than nondual Self and I've explained many times why.

 

You are right. I do have a hard time speaking directly to peoples capacity, even though there are so many different people reading here. So many, as the Buddha said, just don't have the capacity to understand the Buddhas teachings. Which is why I just said a little something to begin with. But... Songs couldn't just leave it be. So, I didn't leave it be either. If Songs hasn't yet understood my, Xabir or your posts, or the links we have given him as of yet? I think anymore talking with Songs about Buddhism is hopeless at this point. He should just let that be the truth of it and put me on ignore. His capacity for being annoyed is quite unequaled though!

[ralis]

You are right. I do have a hard time speaking directly to peoples capacity, even though there are so many different people reading here. So many, as the Buddha said, just don't have the capacity to understand the Buddhas teachings.

 

 

Actually, it is an insult to claim that many have an inferior capacity to understand! The Buddha posits a view and if one does not agree or understand, then one lacks capacity. This is nothing more than a confusion technique that creates a psychological double bind.

 

If the Buddha is so important, then why doesn't he come back and defend his teachings? Why not right now!

 

BTW, I read the Buddha's teachings many years ago and I understand what he said. Does that mean I agree? No!

 

 

ralis

Edited August 8, 2010 by ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I have a hard time speaking to your capacity to understand that reality doesn't boil down to the Buddha. I won't leave it alone when you inject your arrogant views into non-Buddhist threads. I admire your "non-attachment". And no, I won't put you on ignore. I'm going to be your personal Anderson Cooper: Keeping you honest...

 

BTW, what was it you started that I couldn't "just leave it be"? You are admitting your insertion of Buddhist arrogance? You couldn't just leave this Nisargadatta thread be.

 

Which is why I just said a little something to begin with. But... Songs couldn't just leave it be. So, I didn't leave it be either.

 

Can you look at what you just said? You wander in here and "said a little something". But I couldn't "just let it be", so you "couldn't just let it be either" That's how these things get started, and i'm supposed to let your repetitive arrogant behavior "just be"? Why couldn't you let my comment "just be"?

And then I get blamed for "fanning the flames", while you are "just enthusiastic' in your rolling over other's spiritual beliefs? Who are you people? You seem to be able to parrot fancy words and phrases, but are not able to think deeply or observe your own behavior.

 

You play this little game all the time, then fight with people, and retreat behind your defense of other people's "capacity to not understand the Buddha's teaching"! Do you understand what you're doing?? Be honest with yourself.

 

Even Mikaelz thinks you shouldn't be "shoving emptiness teachings down people's throats". Is not your "enthusiasm" a form of imbalance? Can you not see how you've pissed off a bunch of people over your time here? Be honest with yourself, first.

Edited August 8, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Sunya]

I think you two were married in a past life...

[3bob]

Loving kindness and compassion doesn't carry on and on about "capacity",

for if it did it would be something else and weaker. from 3bob

 

Edited August 8, 2010 by 3bob

[adept]

I'm not upset. Just sick of dismissal of other's spirituality if it's non-Buddhist. Plus, he can't really explain why he is so dismissive.

 

Because he is attached to his views. So much for his Buddhist 'non-attachment'.

[dwai]

Ok, To me it's kinda of incredible when many of those who have never studied "Hinduism" lump it all together under a few stereo-types... when it more or less ranges from A-Z, (sorry I don't know much sanskrit) and even after hundreds of years of study one probably wouldn't know much about its vastness!!

 

Om

 

 

Hinduism is a label ascribed by Europeans when they encountered this vast array of choices when it came to spiritual practice in India. Traditionally, the 6 schools of Darshana (or Philosophy) and spiritual traditions based on them constitute Hinduism. In all of these, the common thing is that they uphold 3 sets of texts (The Vedas, The Vedanta Sutras and the Bhagavad Gita) as authoritative. Later, Tantras and agamas made their way into the mix as well..

 

Jaina dharma, Bauddha dharma are not considered part of Hinduism because they do not accept the authority of the Vedic texts, albeit I am certain there was cross-pollination of ideas and thoughts between each of these three schools of thought.

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

 

 

Why do you look down your nose at other's experience of reality as lacking because yours happens to coincide with your meditative experiences? Isn't this the basis of all religious disagreements that lead to terrible suffering in the world? In all your "wisdom", you disregard Nisargadatta out of hand as inferior. Why? Because you were raised in a Hindu Shaivite environment and you are now an expert because you chose Buddhism? Arrogant views.

 

The fact that he was raised in a "Hindu Shaivite" environment is itself a dubious fact and should not be accepted. He was raised in an American "Hindu Shaivite" environment in the 70s and 80s potentially...so that to me is pretty much something that can be dismissed from having any authenticity whatsoever!

[3bob]

The fact that he was raised in a "Hindu Shaivite" environment is itself a dubious fact and should not be accepted. He was raised in an American "Hindu Shaivite" environment in the 70s and 80s potentially...so that to me is pretty much something that can be dismissed from having any authenticity whatsoever!

 

"...so that to me is pretty much something that can be dismissed from having any authenticity whatsoever!"

 

In a general way (and not pointing at any particular school) I don't agree and there are lots of specific examples that could be brought up to show otherwise, and of course there are also various other examples that could be brought up related to your pov., but I wouldn't lump them all together.

 

Om

Edited August 8, 2010 by 3bob

[Vajrahridaya]

It's funny how personally everyone takes an opposing view. I say one little thing, like pulling one rock out of a damn. Wow!

 

Have a fun time!

[Vajrahridaya]

I think you two were married in a past life...

 

Maybe siblings.

[Vajrahridaya]

Loving kindness and compassion doesn't carry on and on about "capacity",

for if it did it would be something else and weaker. from 3bob

 

 

I'm feeling compassion inside me when I write. Sometimes great joy and a sense of freedom as well. So, let your reactions be your reactions.

 

You'll find that greatly empowering.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I'm feeling compassion inside me when I write. Sometimes great joy and a sense of freedom as well. So, let your reactions be your reactions.

 

You'll find that greatly empowering.

 

 

Typical response. Always reflected back on others.

 

I say it doesn't matter what you're feeling. Can you sense the effects of your words?

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

From the TaoBums thread: "Qigong as a Portal to Presence"

 

 

Qigong as a Portal to Presence: Cultivating the Inner Energy Body ©

by Gunther M. Weil, Ph.D.

 

 

Having studied and worked for many years with a variety of teachings, and masters of internal energy, martial and spiritual arts, I have personally experienced and observed many of the spiritual blind alleys and subtle dangers that are associated with complex systems of Qi training and hierarchical structures of spiritual development. The obvious risks include identification with a set of formal teachings, lineages, systems, or even the identity of belonging to an elite professional organization. The less obvious, more subtle dangers involve identification with a set of goals, or images of spiritual attainment, no matter how refined or ideal they may be. The result of either is that the seeker assumes a new self-image; an elevated or spiritual ego emerges, an identity framed within the language, symbols or authority of the teachings or lineage. These risks become especially compelling when ancient teachings are highly commercialized as they are transplanted into Western society. As a result, it is very easy for students of Qigong or meditation to become lost in a

forest of techniques, symbols, arcane language, rituals or authority and thereby ignore the simple and direct realization that lies at the very heart or genesis of most formal systems. This essential realization, which we could describe as Presence or Being, is in complete alignment with the core of Taoist principles ,and is aptly expressed in the aphorism:

“When there is no meditator, there is nothing to meditate upon”

 

 

Applies to Buddhists, too.

 

Reflects nicely on the teachings of Nisargadatta.

Edited August 8, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth