Mind and the Brain

[forestofclarity]

I think this brain v. mind distinction is important and wanted to start a thread off of it.

 

To prove that you're not the brain is a little more complicated, but not impossible. For example, in the dream you may have a dream brain, so does this mean you have multiple brains? One brain for waking and one for dreaming? Which brain is you? Then you may respond that only one brain is real, the brain you use now to read this, and the dream brain is a figment of this brain's imagination. If that's the case, I will then reply, if you accept that a brain can be a figment of another brain's imagination, then is it possible that this brain right here and now is a figment of imagination of another brain somewhere else? And you'll have nothing intelligent to reply to this.

 

So basically there is no good reason, other than a lazy assumption, to think that you are a brain.

 

There are other ways to disprove that you're a brain besides the one I've listed above. For example, you can examine objects of consciousness and conclude that no object of consciousness is what it is from its own power. Rather, all objects appear as they do due to some external-to-the-object context. Since the brain itself is an object of consciousness, since we can see it in the formaldehyde jar, we can refer to it in speech, like we refer to any other object, that means the brain is what it is only due to the external-to-itself context. So that means there is informational context outside the brain that is responsible for making the brain seem what it is. That means cognition is not happening in the brain, because cognition is precisely this awareness of context. So this is another way to prove that you are not the brain.

 

To respond, one might say:

 

1. In the dream, you don't necessarily dream that you have a brain. Also, dreams, unlike waking life, are inconstant, change at a higher rate, and fade away. I've woken up from a dream into waking life many times, but I've never woken up from waking life into a dream.

 

2. This second proof sounds like Anselm's proof of the existence of God, and I think is more due to quick wordplay than anything. I would like to see this one broken out into simple pieces.

[Marblehead]

No, I am not just my brain. It is, however, a part of what I am. It is my understanding that the brain is a part of what we call the mind. No, I cannot explain that.

 

However, without the brain the rest of the body would not function.

 

When we are asleep the subconscious aspect of our brain is at work. When we are awake we are using the conscious aspect of our brain but the subconscious aspect of our brain is active as well. I think that this is what causes us to have random thoughts even though we are trying to quieten our mind.

 

Peasonally, I see no reason to look for an external source of consciousness when the medical field has done a pretty good job in defining the functions of our brain as well as how these functions operate.

 

Some look for a god to blame and credit everything onto. I see no need for that.

 

Peace & Love!

[thelerner]

The real answer may be very complicated. We have brain like cells (neurons?) in our belly area. The heart and other organs seems to hold emotions.

 

Still, you pump the brain w/ one chemical you get happiness, another depression; you cut out parts and the personality changes. You scream at a person who's dreaming and they wake up; scream at them when awake they scream back. Is it possible this brain is a figment of imagination? No, if shoot yourself in the head within a dream, you're fine. If you do it while awake, you're dead. Seems simple to me.

 

So I think, the mind is mostly in the brain.. again the truth may run deeper.

 

 

Michael

[goldisheavy]

I think this brain v. mind distinction is important and wanted to start a thread off of it.

 

 

 

To respond, one might say:

 

1. In the dream, you don't necessarily dream that you have a brain. Also, dreams, unlike waking life, are inconstant, change at a higher rate, and fade away. I've woken up from a dream into waking life many times, but I've never woken up from waking life into a dream.

 

That's your experience then, eh? In my dreams I most often have a body, exactly like the body I use now to type. Obviously inside my dream body is a dream brain. Of course I don't see my own brain directly just like I don't see it right now. I assume it's there, just like I assume there is a brain in my head right now, even though I haven't seen it.

 

2. This second proof sounds like Anselm's proof of the existence of God, and I think is more due to quick wordplay than anything. I would like to see this one broken out into simple pieces.

 

"God" is a loaded word and tends to mean a whole lot. My object is vastly more modest than proving God. I only need to prove that I am not a brain. That's much easier to do for a number of reasons. First, ultimately I know what I am and what I am not, but I cannot say the same about God. Second, proving a negative is much easier than proving a positive. Thus proving that I am not something is vastly easier than to prove something exists, especially when that something is a loaded and weird term like "God."

Edited August 8, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

No, if shoot yourself in the head within a dream, you're fine. If you do it while awake, you're dead.

 

That's not correct. First of all, if you shoot yourself in the head in your dream, you likely wake up and to people in your dream you are dead, while to yourself you continue existing in the waking world. If you shoot yourself in the waking world, what happens next depends on who you ask. If you ask some people, to us in this world you are dead, but to yourself, you are reborn in another reality.

[voidisyinyang]

[Marblehead]

That's not correct. First of all, if you shoot yourself in the head in your dream, you likely wake up and to people in your dream you are dead, while to yourself you continue existing in the waking world. If you shoot yourself in the waking world, what happens next depends on who you ask. If you ask some people, to us in this world you are dead, but to yourself, you are reborn in another reality.

 

Hi GIH,

 

Okay. If you are attempting to prove something here I suggest that we stick with the facts, as best as we can understand them.

 

In your dream, if you shoot yourself, yes, yu and all the people in your dream will believe that you are dead. However, when you wake up you find that you are not dead and that all the people in your dream did not exist in the first place so what these non-existant people think is of no value.

 

Additionally, if you shoot yourself during you waking hours you (your body and all its parts including your brain, are dead. We know nothing, factually, of anything that happens to or with us after we die except that our body rots away. Every thought concerning anything else is only conjecture - nothing but guess-work.

 

So without your brain you are unable to identify your Self. You have returned. Full circle. Game over.

 

Peace & Love!

[Astral_Anima]

Trying to figure out "who" or "what" you are is one of complexity only because there are SO many factors in play. To isolate one is to ignore the totally of what makes you what you are. Identity can be found in many aspects of one's existence, for example a behavioral pattern. "I'm the guy who never gives up".

 

However in reality we are all human beings. Now the term human being is actually a term used for a single entity make out of many entities. For example, Earth is a planet, a planet could be considered and entity which all life we know is a part of. Likewise we are made of living cells, and organs, and tissues. So in actuality a human being is the result of many smaller lifeforms working together. it's just we experience the awareness of the totality and not a single unit.

 

However there is the theory that we are not our body-mind (there's no point in separating them because they are essentially one) and that we are a spiritual being that inhabits this body. Or perhaps we are multidimensional and we have many different bodies of varying wavelengths (energy bodies).

 

Without the ability to A.) Universally define what a Spirit is and B.) Examine or find such a thing, we'll always be guessing. The real question is if we have a spirit that "inhabits" this body, can it exercise control over the body-mind, or are we merely passive observers of this body-mind. Perhaps spirit has no personality or ideas or thoughts, perhaps it has nothing and is why it chooses to experience things that do. Or perhaps the spirit is the source of ideas and thoughts and such and the brain is merely a receiver and interpreter.

 

It seems to already be the general consensus that the brain is like a radio and acts only to pick up signals and translate them. The question then arises, where do these signals come from. Well the whole world around us is basically just like the matrix, nothing but information. So signals that may translate into "the color green" or "rough texture" can be found in the world around us, however what about thoughts and the ability to question? Emotions are simply biological responses and chemicals that affect the body-mind in various ways depending on "emotion" felt.

 

Thoughts could be classified in different ways. The thoughts "i'm hungry" or "i'm horny" are actually impulses or instinct being observed and translated by the intellect. But thoughts such as "who am I" and "what is my purpose" don't seem to have any relevance to the survival of the body-mind so the theory for another component of our existence has been made, the spirit.

 

As already said, the brain acts as a radio, translating signals and sending signals, however it hasn't been proven that it is the "control center", or the place that signals come from. In fact the origin of most signals are our cells. Our cells certainly have a kind of "intelligence" to them, as does most of nature.

 

There's actually alot more that could be said, the theories are endless. It could be that we're all "God" experiencing humans, it could be that consciousness is a by-product of our existence, it could be that we are in the matrix, etc etc.

 

I think the real question to be asked is why are you asking such a question and how will the answer affect your existence?

[forestofclarity]

Gold and All,

 

When I dream, sometimes I have a body and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'm just a disembodied witness. Sometimes I have hands, and sometimes they melt away when I look at them. There is nothing consistent in my dreams. I don't think, for example, I dream of an entire world with a functioning economy: rather, I just dream the corner I'm in. In fact, when I leave the "limits" of my dream, I don't discover more dream, I tend to wake up.

 

The God comment was more in line with the logic of Anselm than the substance.

 

The main criticism I have against the brain = mind is that it is unclear how insentient matter can give rise to sentience. Clearly, there is some link, and there is a link between the eye and seeing.

[goldisheavy]

Hi GIH,

 

Okay. If you are attempting to prove something here I suggest that we stick with the facts, as best as we can understand them.

 

In your dream, if you shoot yourself, yes, yu and all the people in your dream will believe that you are dead. However, when you wake up you find that you are not dead and that all the people in your dream did not exist in the first place so what these non-existant people think is of no value.

 

Agree.

 

Additionally, if you shoot yourself during you waking hours you (your body and all its parts including your brain, are dead. We know nothing, factually, of anything that happens to or with us after we die except that our body rots away.

 

Of course this can also be said in the dream.

 

Every thought concerning anything else is only conjecture - nothing but guess-work.

 

Not exactly.

 

You seem to be implying that only direct empirical evidence is admissible in determining the truth of a statement.

 

Ever heard of logical inference? For example, the scientists infer that the universe was born in a big bang. We accept this, even though none of us were there during the birth of the universe. But we don't have to talk about the big bang. A simple casual thing like tomorrow is a logical inference. None of us exist in the future. Nobody has traveled into the future to verify that it exists, and yet all of us unflinchingly believe in the reality of the future time without any direct evidence. That's logical inference again.

 

So without your brain you are unable to identify your Self.

 

You haven't proven this.

Edited August 8, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

The main criticism I have against the brain = mind is that it is unclear how insentient matter can give rise to sentience. Clearly, there is some link, and there is a link between the eye and seeing.

 

I agree. That's a good criticism as well.

 

The standard answer to this criticism has been an appeal to complexity and particularity, something like, "Well, when the pattern of matter is very complicated and just right, consciousness is born." Seems like bullshit excuse to me. It's a cop out answer that tries to avoid the obvious reality that a person doesn't know.

 

Other people have answered this criticism by saying there is some level of consciousness that's associated with any and all matter, no matter how simple. In other words, a billiard ball has some rudimentary awareness, according to people who put forth this view. This view is somewhat interesting and is not a cop out, but a real attempt at the question, but it's not very popular and I am not sure how true it is, and also, it seems to rely on the dualism of matter and consciousness to make sense.

Edited August 8, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

 

Of course this can also be said in the dream.

 

Not totally. In our dream our body doesn't rot away. But I will agree with you to the point that if we have been having wierd thoughts during our waking hours those wierd thoughts would be available for our dreams.

 

Not exactly. Ever heard of logical inference? For example, the scientists infer that the universe was born in a big bang. We accept this, even though none of us were there during the birth of the universe. But we don't have to talk about the big bang. A simple casual thing like tomorrow is a logical inference. None of us exist in the future. Nobody has traveled into the future to verify that it exists, and yet all of us unflinchingly believe in the reality of the future time without any direct evidence. That's logical inference again.

 

Getting technical on me are you? Hehehe. I agree with what you have said. But it is still scientific guess-work. Tomorrow? Yes, we assume that tomorrow will break upon us. There are no guatantees though. However, yes, we do assume things of the future based upon the past. Of course, this is a Taoist teaching; to observe the present and the past so that we can make sound decisions in the present and the future. Yes, logical inference is valid.

 

You haven't proven this.

 

Nope. But it was a logical inference.

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

Not totally. In our dream our body doesn't rot away. But I will agree with you to the point that if we have been having wierd thoughts during our waking hours those wierd thoughts would be available for our dreams.

 

Marblehead, this really depends on your experience. You have admitted in the past that you are not all that interested in dreams, which is fine with me. However, if you take a dismissive attitude toward the world of dreaming, you can't really make intelligent and credible statements about it in a debate. So when you state that the body doesn't rot away in the dream world, you really don't have a lot of credibility. I say the body rots in the dream too, you just don't dream long enough or pay enough attention to notice it. Things break apart in dreams and there is entropy in dreams. Broken eggs tend to stay broken in the dream world as well as in the waking world.

 

Getting technical on me are you? Hehehe. I agree with what you have said. But it is still scientific guess-work. Tomorrow? Yes, we assume that tomorrow will break upon us. There are no guatantees though. However, yes, we do assume things of the future based upon the past. Of course, this is a Taoist teaching; to observe the present and the past so that we can make sound decisions in the present and the future. Yes, logical inference is valid.

 

OK, good! So we have some common ground then. If logical inferences are valid, it then becomes possible to infer spiritual reality, other realms, life after death and so forth.

[Vajrahridaya]

That's not correct. First of all, if you shoot yourself in the head in your dream, you likely wake up and to people in your dream you are dead, while to yourself you continue existing in the waking world. If you shoot yourself in the waking world, what happens next depends on who you ask. If you ask some people, to us in this world you are dead, but to yourself, you are reborn in another reality.

 

Yes.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi GIH,

 

In your dream, if you shoot yourself, yes, yu and all the people in your dream will believe that you are dead. However, when you wake up you find that you are not dead and that all the people in your dream did not exist in the first place so what these non-existant people think is of no value.

 

Actually, I've experienced that the people in my dream state are just as real in an entirely different dimension. Sometimes my dreams are merely my personal projection and sometimes they are an interpersonal projection. You get into this when you get a little subtler in your meditation. Sometimes I'm just psychically communicating with people that are living on Earth, but through my dream state. You make a whole lot of assumptions based upon 5 sense perception.

 

Additionally, if you shoot yourself during you waking hours you (your body and all its parts including your brain, are dead. We know nothing, factually, of anything that happens to or with us after we die except that our body rots away. Every thought concerning anything else is only conjecture - nothing but guess-work.

 

For you it's guess work, but there are others with their 3rd eye pretty wide open who can communicate with the dead and even see the dead as they move out of their body. When I saw my Opa (Grandfather) die last year, I saw lots of energy stuff going on, on a 6th sense level and all sorts of dimensions opening up for him when I focused on his eyes and went into his consciousness. There are beings that can, and do do things that you and your brain identity may think is delusion but is actual reality beyond this dimension. You should be more agnostic if you were more open minded.

 

So without your brain you are unable to identify your Self. You have returned. Full circle. Game over.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I've had too many out of body and inter-dimensional experiences to believe that. I call this at this moment, mass psychosis, limited identity, limited experience, BS!

Edited August 9, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

 

OK, good! So we have some common ground then. If logical inferences are valid, it then becomes possible to infer spiritual reality, other realms, life after death and so forth.

 

Yeah baby!! This is what first got me into "intense" meditation, 15 years ago. I would try to devote most of my waking hours to meditation of different types just so that I could learn to use other aspects of my mind not used by the general public. I would meditate on average about 4 to 6 hours a day, going through all sorts of blockages internally and externally, realizing they all come from subtler inner dimensions. Then, time and time again... blamo!! Conscious dimension shifting! Then my dreams started to join in the party as my consciousness is now transformed and fully embraces non-physical reality as alternative reality, or rather a connected reality, or rather an expanded experience of reality including the physical... what have you.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

Yeah baby!! This is what first got me into "intense" meditation, 15 years ago. I would try to devote most of my waking hours to meditation of different types just so that I could learn to use other aspects of my mind not used by the general public. I would meditate on average about 4 to 6 hours a day, going through all sorts of blockages internally and externally, realizing they all come from subtler inner dimensions. Then, time and time again... blamo!! Conscious dimension shifting! Then my dreams started to join in the party as my consciousness is now transformed and fully embraces non-physical reality as alternative reality, or rather a connected reality, or rather an expanded experience of reality including the physical... what have you.

 

Very cool, Vajra. I'm glad you're happy (I'm serious).

[Vajrahridaya]

Very cool, Vajra. I'm glad you're happy (I'm serious).

 

Well... you're one of the cooler self questioners in here dude... and I'm serious!

:lol: So... danka!

[Marblehead]

Marblehead, this really depends on your experience. You have admitted in the past that you are not all that interested in dreams, which is fine with me.

 

Actually, I believe what I said is that I do not dream very often. I can't remember saying that I wasn't interested in the subject of dreams.

 

But ture, I cannot speak to what others dream unless they tell me. So if you tell me that you have died and rotted away in one of your dreams I will have to accept that. But if you rotted away who was it that was seeing you rot away? A paradox, I think.

 

OK, good! So we have some common ground then. If logical inferences are valid, it then becomes possible to infer spiritual reality, other realms, life after death and so forth.

 

However, if we are going to claim logical inference there must be some logic behind the inference. Logic suggests that we have some form of proof to base our inference on. I only ask, where is the proof of spiritual reality outside the operation of the brain; where is the proof o other realms outside the operation of the brain; where is the proof of life after death outside the operation of the brain? Couldn't all these just be figments of our imagination?

 

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

But if you rotted away who was it that was seeing you rot away? A paradox, I think.

 

Yes. Who watches you age right now? Is that a paradox?

 

I only ask, where is the proof of spiritual reality outside the operation of the brain

 

I think I've already proven that you are not your brain.

 

where is the proof of life after death outside the operation of the brain?

 

Where is the proof that tomorrow exists outside the operation of the brain?

 

Couldn't all these just be figments of our imagination?

 

They could, but what does it mean exactly? Does imagination have a limit? Could all this right now be a figment of your imagination?

[Marblehead]

Actually, I've experienced that the people in my dream state are just as real in an entirely different dimension. Sometimes my dreams are merely my personal projection and sometimes they are an interpersonal projection. You get into this when you get a little subtler in your meditation. Sometimes I'm just psychically communicating with people that are living on Earth, but through my dream state. You make a whole lot of assumptions based upon 5 sense perception.

 

For you it's guess work, but there are others with their 3rd eye pretty wide open who can communicate with the dead and even see the dead as they move out of their body. When I saw my Opa (Grandfather) die last year, I saw lots of energy stuff going on, on a 6th sense level and all sorts of dimensions opening up for him when I focused on his eyes and went into his consciousness. There are beings that can, and do do things that you and your brain identity may think is delusion but is actual reality beyond this dimension. You should be more agnostic if you were more open minded.

 

I've had too many out of body and inter-dimensional experiences to believe that. I call this at this moment, mass psychosis, limited identity, limited experience, BS!

 

Hi VJ,

 

I'm glad you still have your personal opinions, illusions and delusions. Hehehe.

 

Ouch! You got back at me with the "BS" stuff. Hehehe. (It really didn't hurt - just joking.)

 

You are right though. I have no ability whatever to tell anyone what they can and cannot think. All I can speak to is to respond to what has been said based on the knowledge I have of the workings of the universe. My knowledge may well be impure, I don't know.

 

But I can tell you this: if what is said does not stand up to scientific investigation then I have to assume that what was said should not be taken seriously.

 

Granted that you and I have different understanding of what reality is. That's not a problem in and of itself. The problem would be were others accept either your or my opinion without questioning either. In discussions such as this I will always present an alternative view and naturally in almost all cases what I present will be based on what I believe to be true.

 

So the fact that you believe in prior lives really has nothing to do with me, personally. But that doesn't mean I won't present an alternate view for anyone who is reading the posts.

 

So, while it seems you enjoy speaking about my limited views I will suggest that your unlimited views have led you far astray from reality. Stop concerning yourself with your past lives and you potential future lives and take good care of this one. It is this one that is of importance now. When we try to live in the past or in the future we are denying our "now" life and that is, in my opinion, sad.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Well... you're one of the cooler self questioners in here dude... and I'm serious!

:lol: So... danka!

 

Okay. Now that you two have given each other a supportive hug let's get back to the discussion. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Brian]

...

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi VJ,

 

So, while it seems you enjoy speaking about my limited views I will suggest that your unlimited views have led you far astray from reality. Stop concerning yourself with your past lives and you potential future lives and take good care of this one. It is this one that is of importance now. When we try to live in the past or in the future we are denying our "now" life and that is, in my opinion, sad.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

By knowing and understanding your past you are more able to understand your now. The point of seeing past lives is not to get stuck in the past, but to liberate the now from unconscious chain reactions based upon a previously unconscious history.

[Marblehead]

By knowing and understanding your past you are more able to understand your now. The point of seeing past lives is not to get stuck in the past, but to liberate the now from unconscious chain reactions based upon a previously unconscious history.

 

I really do understand what you are and have been saying VJ. It is just that I do not agree with it and it is not compatible with Taoist Philosophy so whenever subjects like this are brought forth I feel a responsibility to speak to them. And, of course, I will always present the Taoist view as best as I understand it.

 

But, directly to your post, I don't need to be liberated because I am not bound by any past lives. I have this one and I must say I am doing rather well with it.

 

Oh, yes, I understand my 'now' and I assure you, there are no past lives attached. Therefore one could say that I am totally unattached.

 

But we will have these discussion now and then because you and others have that belief system and I and others have this belief system and even though there is a lot of commonality between the two there are some significant differences as well. Most likely we will spend most of our time talking about the differences.

 

Peace & Love!