The FINE Line

[Astral_Anima]

Okay I have to make this.

 

We've all seen qigong masters able to do amazing things, most noted is their ability to move others or knock them down without any effort. This is an inherent flaw however with choosing to believe that this is genuine power...can it be done in a controlled environment? Most qigong "masters" only do this on their students, ever wonder why? I'm going to post some links for people to think about. The first one is a fraudulent faith healer known as Benny Hinn

 

(funny)

 

You'll notice he has the same kind of "power" to affect others in wonderous ways. Some people claim healing and other claim some unexplainable experience which he labeled (for them) "God".

 

Next up is Derren Brown, a well known Mentalist.

 

 

In this he's even able to punch a student from behind, without touching him, and the student was still affected.

 

Lastly here's the Harry Cameron.Followed by George Dillman.

 

(Cameron)

(Dillman)

 

I think this really brings it home. He was able to affect all of his students, but not the people who didn't believe in it. If chi is to be proved as an OBJECTIVE reality, it must be proven to exist regardless of what one believes.

 

Now with this I don't think chi is fake, however I think alot of people utilize mind tricks (knowingly or unknowingly), call it "chi" or whatever, and market it to make alot of money, preying on people's hopes and dreams. The biggest test is in the controls. If the "chi" of your school is indeed real then you should be able to affect complete strangers without telling them what's going to happen. You should be able to affect other martial artists, scientists, complete non-believers, etc. Please don't waste your money to be bamboozled by money grubbing tricksters. If they're charging good money for whats supposed to be good training, make sure they can put their money where their mouth is. If it takes "sensitivity" to be affected by chi, then it's worthless in self defense and pretty much everything else. If people were truly trying to share ways to better mankind they wouldn't be charging for it. They would get a job like everyone else and share this on the side.

 

For anyone curious in a more in depth look at explanations I recommend any of the works by Derren Brown and this series...--- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeacZwl2pbg&feature=related ---

 

Remain Vigilant,

-Astral

[therion]

Real power is very rare, only to be found in a few precious lineages.

 

The rest (pretty much everything in the west) is a joke and a big clown show.

 

There's a supernatural quality to real genuine power. Moving people is NOT a supernatural quality. Putting imprints in rock or dissolving objects from a distance IS. So next time someone claims to be able to wake up real kundalini or project qi energy know that they are full of shit.

Edited August 8, 2010 by therion

[goldisheavy]

Now with this I don't think chi is fake, however I think alot of people utilize mind tricks (knowingly or unknowingly), call it "chi" or whatever, and market it to make alot of money, preying on people's hopes and dreams. The biggest test is in the controls. If the "chi" of your school is indeed real then you should be able to affect complete strangers without telling them what's going to happen. You should be able to affect other martial artists, scientists, complete non-believers, etc. Please don't waste your money to be bamboozled by money grubbing tricksters. If they're charging good money for whats supposed to be good training, make sure they can put their money where their mouth is. If it takes "sensitivity" to be affected by chi, then it's worthless in self defense and pretty much everything else. If people were truly trying to share ways to better mankind they wouldn't be charging for it. They would get a job like everyone else and share this on the side.

 

Remain Vigilant,

-Astral

 

The state of your own mind is subjective, by definition. Does that make it useless? Would you want to fight mindlessly? If you use the word "subjective" as a code word for "ineffective" or "irrelevant" you are making a mistake.

[Astral_Anima]

goldisheavy- What I'm saying is that if somebody is marketing their "art" as some kind of self defense, or health promoting miracle, or spiritual art, then it should do what they're promoting without the use of suggestion or pressure of conformity.

 

Subjectivity is okay for the individual but it can leave one open to tricks and illusions that an objective perspective isn't prone to. Thinking from a subjective perspective one may come to the conclusion that they are the only real person in the world and that everyone else is just an illusion, or someone may believe that they are REALLY in the matrix because of one movie. Subjectivity leaves one open to alot of delusions which is why people must look at things on a grander scale.

 

Now what I mean by proving chi objectively is this. Gravity exists. Gravity exists regardless of what I think of it. Therefore it exists objectively. It can be proven mathematically, and everyone can feel it and test it. As for chi, there is, so far, not very many ways to test it because we don't quite know how to measure it. However if we can indeed project it upon something objective like a rock or paper and affect that object, in a controlled environment, and be able to repeat the experiment over and over with similar (if not the same) results, then we can conclude that SOMETHING that cannot be seen is affecting that object. We can then choose to call that something "chi" or "bio electric energy" or whatever. Even if we were to test it on a human being, as long as it's tested in a controlled way and can affect ANYONE in a similar (or same) way then it can be labeled valid.

 

Now in order to find truth, we must look at phenomena and create theories based on what's going on, then test those theories using logic. Look at the video with George Dillman and Harry Cameron. Their "power" was effective on their own students, however it didn't work upon skeptics. Those are the facts. Now the explanation that these frauds gave is twofold.

 

Dillman said that there are things you can do to nullify it, like "raise your big toe" or "if your tongue is in the wrong position". Cameron said only 40% of people are susceptible. If you choose to believe Dillman OR Cameron then you can conclude that chi is pretty much worthless in self defense. If only 40% of people can even BE AFFECTED by chi, like Cameron says, then it's highly impractical for ANYTHING anyway. ...Or you can look at how others have demonstrated the same kind of power over people, except instead of trying to make money from it, they simply try to explain what's really going on to expose frauds who are using tricks to feed their egos and wallets by convincing people they have "power" when in fact they do not. People like James Randi and Derren Brown have demonstrated these same tricks with ZERO time training in ANY chi development. Therefore it's safe to conclude it isn't chi at work. If chi existed objectively then it would not affect only a percentage of people, it would affect EVERYONE, like gravity. Now i'm not saying chi doesn't exist, what i'm saying is finding a true cultivator is like finding a piece of hay in a needle stack O.o

[Martial Development]

This is incredibly sloppy reasoning. Not everyone is susceptible to polio or three-card monte either.

[goldisheavy]

goldisheavy- What I'm saying is that if somebody is marketing their "art" as some kind of self defense, or health promoting miracle, or spiritual art, then it should do what they're promoting without the use of suggestion or pressure of conformity.

 

Astral, I think you're trying too hard as far as I am concerned. You can state your concerns in half the text volume you use.

 

I think that all the people who teach about chi should come clean about the subjective nature of chi. So if this is your demand, I will agree with that. But you seem to have a kind of dismissive and/or pejorative attitude toward the subjective experience, and I can't possibly agree with that.

 

Subjectivity is okay for the individual but it can leave one open to tricks and illusions that an objective perspective isn't prone to.

 

Bullshit. There is no such thing as "objective" experience. Nothing in the so-called "objective" world offers a guarantee against disappointment, and really being tricked is a matter of being disappointed. It's when you expect one thing, but get another. That's what being tricked is. It is disappointment.

 

Thinking from a subjective perspective one may come to the conclusion that they are the only real person in the world and that everyone else is just an illusion,

 

How is it possible for some parts of the experiential space to be real while others to be illusion? That makes no sense. If you conclude that experiences are illusory, you must conclude this about all experiences and sensations: sensations of other people are illusory, but so are the sensations of one's own body and mind.

 

Besides, having an objective bent to your thinking is just as dangerous. A person with objective bias might reach a conclusion that people's internal states are invalid, and are illusory, and thus the pain and suffering people subjectively feel is illusory and irrelevant. This way of thinking may lead to treating people as no more than meat bags, just like insensate and irresponsible bio-robots without any volition.

 

or someone may believe that they are REALLY in the matrix because of one movie.

 

I believe this. Now what?

 

Subjectivity leaves one open to alot of delusions

 

So does objectivity.

[Junbao]

Thanks Astral_Anima for the topic. I think it's a good one and I think you have some really good points. I think that it is really up to the individual and their personal experience as to whether these types of things are working or not. The Benny Hinn stuff looks weird to me, yet at the same time I have been at a church service with a healer and went up to him as a skeptic. All I can say is that I really did go out when he laid hands. I made a point to stand my own, but something did happen.

BUT, I have been in the class type situation where the teacher teaches something, and then describes what you should be feeling, and then asks the class if they feel it. I did not. But in the context of the class, where you have already spent money, and you have the hopes of achieving something, most people try their best to feel what it is the teacher is describing. I think this is the point that you are trying to make? A lot of times if desire is strong enough then it is no problem to conform to the group mentality and just go along with what your desires are driving you towards. Some master says he can project chi onto another as if he had actually punched them. And the person thinks wow, can you really do that? So they decide to go to a class. They spend $250 for a workshop. Everyone in the class is convinced it can be done and has invested time, money, and their spirit into making this happen. It's this kind of group mentality that can be dangerous if you get sucked into it.

At the same time though, some of these things can be very real to some people while not at all to others. Some people do get healing or a sense of the spirit and it does improve their lives.

What I have felt when there was a real laying on of hands from the spirit was a complete breakdown and release of the ego. People get to a state of tears because they suddenly see all that the ego has held on to, and how fruitless it has been, and how simple things really are. That was my experience anyway :-)

I do agree that there are cons out there for sure, and also many people that are even convinced of their power that also convince others. But at the same time I hope this would not cause one to dismiss the fact that some people out there are for real.

[voidisyinyang]

Obviously if you're a qigong student then you're doing exercises and special diet to better harmonize your energy so that you can better receive the teacher's transmissions.

 

So the "chi" energy is electromagnetic -- that will be experienced as a "force" -- but the brain itself also works normally through electromagnetic energy. It's a subtle energy but it's also intense -- i.e. more harmonized.

 

When the chi is even more intense -- more harmonized -- then it creates shen or laser energy. The laser energy is when you have real paranormal powers like lighting things on fire or seeing inside someone's body or doing long distance healing since the laser is also holographic. So the shen energy enables telekinesis; communicating with and healing dead spirits, levitating; creating another physical body is the final feat.

 

But since the laser energy is holographic it's also completely interactive. Still this interactive energy is happening all the time on a normal level -- only it's usually subconscious -- so emotions are electrochemical energy but emotions are also transmitted -- projected onto other people.

 

For example if someone has bad intentions and wants someone else to be sad then a person will say:

 

"Are you alright?" but with a bad intention -- even though there's nothing wrong with a person it's a way to strongly suggest that the person is NOT alright. It's a way for a person to PROJECT their chi energy as electromagnetic force -- but with a bad intention so it's originating from the lower chakras -- most likely from their subconscious anger at the person, so a liver blockage.

 

It's just like what the mafia do -- "I'd hate for there to be an accident here." So the question "Are you alright?" is not sincere -- it's actually a threat. So then if the person becomes sad because the other person is actually angry at them -- but hides it as fake concern -- then when the person is NOW sad, the question: "Are you alright?" transforms the other person into NOT being alright.

 

That's just a very basic example that happens a lot if someone has bad intentions.

 

On the other hand if a person has good intentions then the opposite can happen.

 

Now the INTENTION of a person is actually their electromagnetic spirit energy -- as their normally subconscious reality -- but it's literally stored in their body.

 

So Gurdjieff, based on Mahayana Buddhism, had a system -- so a Number 1 person has their electromagnetic "center of gravity" stuck in their lower chakras. Such a person is hard-wired to be evil -- they are constantly pulling other people DOWN to destroy other people's will power and then suck off their electromagnetic energy.

 

So Gurdjieff says a Number 4 person has their "center of gravity" permanently in their brain. So then you can read where another person's subconscious electromagnetic energy is -- because if your center of gravity is in the third eye, then the electromagnetic brain energy as "intention" is no longer subconscious.

 

So the electromagnetic brain energy gets transduced or transformed into emotional electrochemical energy -- and therefore can heal someone or the opposite can happen.

 

Most people are left-brain dominant so that most of their electromagnetic spirit energy is still subconscious and stuck in their lower chakras -- not as "number 1" but as Number 2 -- so that they often get controlled by their emotions based on the other organs, etc.

 

Hypnotists increase their brain electromagnetic energy and then use their voice to project that energy. Sometimes a hypnotists will take away another person's will power -- and this can mean a hypnotist actually has their electromagnetic energy in their lower chakras.

 

This is similar to what I call a "Perv Attack" -- the Number 1 person with their electromagnetic essence stuck in their lower chakra will then always be hard-wired to attempt to break other peoples' will power -- to parasitize another person's energy. The internal kidney reproductive energy is will power but will get turned into fear so to break their will -- and then the person's sex energy is sucked off. This is why fear is commonly used for seduction as sex is often taught as sadomasochism -- that's why violence is so normal on television, with the sex. It's basically like someone using seduction but the intention is not love -- it's to feed off someone else's emotional energy for the perv's own selfish reasons. So the Number 1 person is always taking away from others -- they think they're in control but in fact they don't know how to transmit healing energy. Their electromagnetic essence is stuck in their lower chakras.

 

Quite a few people can do the "chi" transmissions as a force energy after doing the qigong training but obviously if the student has already given over their will power to the teacher so that they can learn from the teacher, then the student will more readily be affected by the energy. If the person has bad intentions towards the teacher then it might be more difficult.

 

For the "laser" shen transmissions -- that is very difficult to find - it's a very rare skill. Someone with the "laser" shen transmission can read the minds of the students -- and can see inside the students' bodies. The transmission as a laser shen is pinpointed inside someone's body -- in the center of their brain, or just on their right kidney, etc. It feels like a laser -- it creates a blissful burning sensation that then turns into electromagnetic energy which turns into light.

Edited August 9, 2010 by drewhempel

[Astral_Anima]

WARNING: Everything I say is based on the assumption that there is one universal reality that exists regardless of our perception of it, our thoughts about it, or our feelings toward it. If anyone doesn't share this essential assumption one shouldn't read this and should go have fun with chaos

 

Martial Development- Incredibly sloppy comeback, both of the things you've mentioned are observable, have a clear definition, and involve the immune system which is diff in everyone but not unobservable, it's just a pain in the ass. Chi, however, is said to be able to travel from one person's body to another's, there's no known way to stop such a process which is why ninjas, shaolin monks, martial arts masters, etc were so deadly way back when. Of course I'm assuming that the reason they were so feared was because perhaps they controlled REAL chi, or at least more powerful chi.

 

gold- heheh, yeah I guess I did get off on a rant . Perhaps these people DO have some kind of chi development, but if they do then it's incredibly weak. There ARE powerful people out there. Chunyin Lin, I believe, is a powerful healer. If the claims of his patients are valid then I believe he may have some REAL development. His students have claimed to be cured of diseases that simply can't be cured via placebo effect (like cancer and diabetes). He also has apparently gone an extended period of time sitting in full lotus pose with no food or water. THAT is a sign of a true master.

 

When I talk about subjectivity it's things that vary from person to person. So temperature can be measured and exists outside of the mind, however the feeling of "hot" varies depending on the person. Some people think 70 degree weather is "hot" while others think it's kinda cool. Same thing with pain. Force can be measured, but pain is in the mind and diff for everyone.

 

Bullshit There is no such thing as "objective" experience. Nothing in the so-called "objective" world offers a guarantee against disappointment, and really being tricked is a matter of being disappointed. It's when you expect one thing, but get another. That's what being tricked is. It is disappointment.

 

Alright if we're going to have a conversation we need to use the ACTUAL meanings of the words we use. Here is the ACTUAL meaning of the work "trick"--An act or procedure intended to achieve an end by deceptive or fraudulent means--. Deceive means--To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.--. So know that we've gotten that cleared up, someone can pull a mental trick like the no-hit-knockout and claim that they're a qigong master or powered by God and from a subjective standpoint you may indeed believe them if you've never seen the trick, however the REALITY is that this person is using deception to either boost their ego or make money, or both

 

How is it possible for some parts of the experiential space to be real while others to be illusion? That makes no sense. If you conclude that experiences are illusory, you must conclude this about all experiences and sensations: sensations of other people are illusory, but so are the sensations of one's own body and mind.

 

Besides, having an objective bent to your thinking is just as dangerous. A person with objective bias might reach a conclusion that people's internal states are invalid, and are illusory, and thus the pain and suffering people subjectively feel is illusory and irrelevant. This way of thinking may lead to treating people as no more than meat bags, just like insensate and irresponsible bio-robots without any volition.

 

Now remember the definition of deceive. Experiences are never illusory, it's the conclusions we come to, the way we make sense of them that is often illusory . You may experience a sort of "shock" when Benny Hinn touches you. Now that shock is the experience is what you felt. However you may fall under the illusion that it's because he's some kind of holy man when the reality is that he's simply hitting pressure points causing the experience.

 

Objective- Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices;

-Based on observable phenomena; presented factually.

 

Thus is does NOT lead to delusions. QED

 

It's working with what information you have. It's dealing with what is, not what one thinks or believes is. There's nothing wrong with this, people should do it more often. The only problem is that If you limit your experiences you wont have much to go on and of course in order to understand what's going on you need to create theories, but then you must also test them using logic. Objectivity is dealing with reality and a part of any truth seeker's life.

Concluding that internal states are invalid is usually the sign of a sociopath or a complete moron. Experiences are what they are, it's the conclusions we come to based on them that can get dangerous.

If you remember the "golden rule" of Christ...that is pretty much proven. If you treat someone like shit, you're going to get treated like shit, just look at history, lol, we saw what happened to the king of France

[Vajrahridaya]

Real power is very rare, only to be found in a few precious lineages.

 

The rest (pretty much everything in the west) is a joke and a big clown show.

 

There's a supernatural quality to real genuine power. Moving people is NOT a supernatural quality. Putting imprints in rock or dissolving objects from a distance IS. So next time someone claims to be able to wake up real kundalini or project qi energy know that they are full of shit.

 

Heh! Gurumayi is able to appear in two places at once, I mean on a physically tangible level. HAHA!! My Rinpoche can manifest things from his dream into physical reality.. I mean physical artifacts. YAY! I've grown up with great lineages!! I'm so happy right now to know this... YAY!

[Martial Development]

WARNING: Everything I say is based on the assumption that there is one universal reality that exists regardless of our perception of it, our thoughts about it, or our feelings toward it. If anyone doesn't share this essential assumption one shouldn't read this and should go have fun with chaos

 

Martial Development- Incredibly sloppy comeback, both of the things you've mentioned are observable, have a clear definition, and involve the immune system which is diff in everyone but not unobservable, it's just a pain in the ass. Chi, however, is said to be able to travel from one person's body to another's, there's no known way to stop such a process which is why ninjas, shaolin monks, martial arts masters, etc were so deadly way back when. Of course I'm assuming that the reason they were so feared was because perhaps they controlled REAL chi, or at least more powerful chi.

 

A good martial artist is attacking the body, the energy, and the spirit all at once. Not even world-class, just good. The only question is whether they fully realize the significance of the act, and choose to frame it in those particular terms.

 

I think that if you knew how to execute "isolated" chi attacks, then you would already know how to counter them as well. Even George Dillman says counters exist. I'm sure don't mean to be citing him (or people like him) as evidence to bolster an argument, only to ignore him when that is more convenient.

 

On the topic of clear definitions, "chi" "exists" because it is ontologically necessary. Polio virus is invisible except with the help of a special viewing device (and manifestations of chi are equally so). For this and a dozen other reasons, choosing to "believe" in one but not the other is anything but objective.

 

Respectfully, I believe this is all pretty much accepted by the audience that constitutes this particular forum. So I don't feel a need to elaborate, but am free to compose a...sloppy comeback.

[Astral_Anima]

A good martial artist is attacking the body, the energy, and the spirit all at once. Not even world-class, just good. The only question is whether they fully realize the significance of the act, and choose to frame it in those particular terms.

 

I think that if you knew how to execute "isolated" chi attacks, then you would already know how to counter them as well. Even George Dillman says counters exist. I'm sure don't mean to be citing him (or people like him) as evidence to bolster an argument, only to ignore him when that is more convenient.

 

On the topic of clear definitions, "chi" "exists" because it is ontologically necessary. Polio virus is invisible except with the help of a special viewing device (and manifestations of chi are equally so). For this and a dozen other reasons, choosing to "believe" in one but not the other is anything but objective.

 

Respectfully, I believe this is all pretty much accepted by the audience that constitutes this particular forum. So I don't feel a need to elaborate, but am free to compose a...sloppy comeback.

 

Oh I believe chi exists as well, i'm not trying to disprove it, what i'm trying to do is separate it from mind games. I still don't have a clear definition of chi because i can't observe it (damn lazy 3rd eye, lol).

 

If George Dillman wanted to prove his theory he would have asked the skeptic to change the position of his toes or tounge and then tested it in those controls...but he didn't which leads me to conclude he's a fake. Again, i don't doubt that chi attacks exist, I simply doubt that everyone who claims to be able to do them is actually able. My orginal point is that if it can't be tested in a controlled environment with similar results then it can't be considered valid.

 

Now obviously there can be factors that will interfere. In the case of Dillman there may well have been positions to nullify chi attacks, however then it should be tested that hold a certain position would then change the outcome. But he said "The guy was a total non-believer". Belief has nothing to to with reality. Whether I "believe" gravity exits or not is irrelevant... it exists, it's measurable, it affects everyone. If I believe that an apple will float when I let it go, that doesn't mean it will. Thus if existence of something is dependent on belief then it isn't valid.

[goldisheavy]

WARNING: Everything I say is based on the assumption that there is one universal reality that exists regardless of our perception of it, our thoughts about it, or our feelings toward it. If anyone doesn't share this essential assumption one shouldn't read this and should go have fun with chaos

 

Wooo hooo!

 

gold- heheh, yeah I guess I did get off on a rant . Perhaps these people DO have some kind of chi development, but if they do then it's incredibly weak. There ARE powerful people out there. Chunyin Lin, I believe, is a powerful healer. If the claims of his patients are valid then I believe he may have some REAL development. His students have claimed to be cured of diseases that simply can't be cured via placebo effect (like cancer and diabetes). He also has apparently gone an extended period of time sitting in full lotus pose with no food or water. THAT is a sign of a true master.

 

When I talk about subjectivity it's things that vary from person to person. So temperature can be measured and exists outside of the mind, however the feeling of "hot" varies depending on the person. Some people think 70 degree weather is "hot" while others think it's kinda cool. Same thing with pain. Force can be measured, but pain is in the mind and diff for everyone.

 

Right. So, did you read various studies on the effectiveness of bullet calibers? Do you know that some people will fall down from the slightest wound from .22 caliber bullet. Other people will have at you, and possibly even kill you, after being fatally shot through the heart with .45 ACP. Bullets are objective. The heart is objective. And yet, people respond differently to these "objective" stimuli. Some people drop at the slightest indication of pain. Others keep going. Also drugs make a difference. It's widely accepted that drugged up people can stay up, even while grievously wounded, and continue to fight back.

 

So as you can see, even the hardest-core objectivest shit out there, like a bullet, is not a guarantee of a uniform response. So if you're a reasonable person, and you don't demand a uniform response even from a bullet, why do you demand an iron-clad uniform response from a chi projection?

 

At the same time, please don't interpret anything I say that you should settle for anything less than a robust system. I'm not asking you to believe in something that you know doesn't work for you.

 

Crudely speaking, things are neither 100% objective nor 100% subjective. Some people call this inter-subjective reality. But it doesn't matter though. What matters is that some things work more reliably, and other work less reliably. The best way to know what's what is to try it. This is why if you need to be absolutely certain that what you're learning is worth your while, you need to spar and test. If your system doesn't do anything during sparring, you should probably abandon it. But sparring is not really objective though! Don't delude yourself.

 

Sparring is as much a mental game as it is a physical game. If your opponent is scared of you, even a weak punch from you will level your opponent. If you watch boxing or MMA, you will notice that as soon as the fight starts, for the vast majority of fights, immediately two people fall into two different psychological roles. One becomes dominant and the other becomes submissive and a whiny little bitch. This happens right after the bell rings. And usually the fight results simply confirm this mental/psychological self-assignment. At the highest levels of competition, you can observe fights where no one is clearly dominant. But for most fights I think you can notice this. I do.

 

So even if you have success in sparring, can you be 100% certain it was your awesome technique that did the trick? Maybe your opponent was scared of the shape of your nose or ears, or felt threatened by your mustache? How can you be sure it was really that chi or that punch? You can't be too sure. The more menacing or insane your appearance is, the less sure you can be it is your technique that's winning you the fight/sparring match.

 

Furthermore, chi doesn't have to be projected outward to be used. One way to use chi is to project it into your body and use it to give your body unusual properties. This way, you have a strong subjective-to-subjective connection, chi to inner body, both subjective and this connects well, while your opponent is only interacting with your outer body, which is objective to your opponent. This way you don't need your opponent to believe in chi to benefit from chi. At the same time, if your belief in chi is deep enough, it also doesn't matter what your opponent believes, as you will then override no matter what.

 

People who don't believe in any spiritual forces still have the same power that everyone else has. So skeptics use the powers of their minds to squelch all the spiritual powers. So if you're a die-hard skeptic, it's possible that most of the chi powers will fizzle in your presence. It doesn't mean your skepticism confirms some objective reality though.

 

Alright if we're going to have a conversation we need to use the ACTUAL meanings of the words we use. Here is the ACTUAL meaning of the work "trick"--An act or procedure intended to achieve an end by deceptive or fraudulent means--. Deceive means--To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.--. So know that we've gotten that cleared up, someone can pull a mental trick like the no-hit-knockout and claim that they're a qigong master or powered by God and from a subjective standpoint you may indeed believe them if you've never seen the trick, however the REALITY is that this person is using deception to either boost their ego or make money, or both

 

Who cares? What matters is how portable and how reliable your trick is. If you need to carry a lot of props and special equipment to do your trick, it's not useful in real situations. But if you can whip out your trick with some regularity on even just 70% of people, that's damn useful. It doesn't matter if it's a trick or real. What matters is the result. If you can fraudulently convince 70% of people to give up without fighting, that's good! That kind of fraud is not actually fraud. Do you catch my drift?

 

Can Dan Brown take his skill into the field? I bet there are some hypnotists who can. Maybe not Dan Brown. Maybe Dan can. Who knows? Milton H. Erickson could hypnotize people who were resistant to hypnosis and who couldn't be hypnotized by any other hypnotist. That's real power. It's not fraud.

 

Let me put it this way. If I simply say "pain" in your presence, you will feel slightly less comfortable from just that one word. That's power right there. It's very small, but it's greater than 0. If you understand the implication of this, you can see how immense (but not absolute) power can develop given the right conditions.

Edited August 9, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Martial Development]

...Now obviously there can be factors that will interfere. In the case of Dillman there may well have been positions to nullify chi attacks, however then it should be tested that hold a certain position would then change the outcome. But he said "The guy was a total non-believer". Belief has nothing to to with reality. Whether I "believe" gravity exits or not is irrelevant... it exists, it's measurable, it affects everyone. If I believe that an apple will float when I let it go, that doesn't mean it will. Thus if existence of something is dependent on belief then it isn't valid.

 

Belief is a form of force that strengthens its subject. It exists and it affects everyone. Whether it is measurable, depends, in part, on whether you have constructed a special viewing device, e.g. fMRI (c.f. poliovirus or chi).

Edited August 9, 2010 by Martial Development

[Birch]

"Whether I "believe" gravity exits or not is irrelevant... it exists, it's measurable, it affects everyone"

 

Even people who can jump over buildings? That crazy urban sport. I'd say those guys don't have enough belief in gravity

 

Belief does affect everyone IMO.

 

Besides, people create measuring devices to help them find things they already believe in, not things they don't.

[Mokona]

The "I don't know principle" is very strong in this subject, many people work ardously to scientize chi and explain the goings-on of chi interactions but it can be very difficult.

In your original post, weren't you concerned with

The biggest test is in the controls. If the "chi" of your school is indeed real then you should be able to affect complete strangers without telling them what's going to happen.

?

Anyhow, I've had that happen to me many times, by different indivduals, and the more I keep up on energetic and meditive works I seem to become sensitive to the nuances of 'spirit' take that as you will, I can't explain it and I care not too, I don't have a belief system, I've just noticed that some things "work".

Also, some people call it psy but i've remote viewed black leather gloves hanging in a persons bedroom in Europe, others i've interacted with have felt effects from neutral meditation, when I wasn't attempting to do anything to them, then there have been times i'd point my foot at my mother while relaxing on a lawn chair behind her at the pool and shoot energy into her. Normally it that last one works quickly and she tells me to cut it out.

Honestly, Astral you may feel that continues practice, experimentation and no desire for an outcome will eventually bring forward very undeniable experiences, of the type that you seem to be seeking in your original post. Just practice as often as possible and I recommend at least one continues practice of being "aware" of your surroundings, and the way the close enviroment feels.

 

Good luck.