goldisheavy Posted August 9, 2010 Vajra, What would you say if I said the source of experience is the matter and energy present in the world, hitting our sense organs? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 9, 2010 Vajra, What would you say if I said the source of experience is the matter and energy present in the world, hitting our sense organs? Well... if you were to go deeper than that, you would get to the big bang... and if you were to go deeper than that even? What you said though definitely encompasses this life though, but there is a cause to this as well... I'm basically trying to lead people to infinite regress and the endless cycle of questioning until emptiness is found and realized directly... hopefully. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) When we say that the mind is primordial, it means nothing has created it, it has no beginning. Ok... so experience has no source... this is either leading the mind to infinite regress of particulars or into the mistake of independent cause. Unless one can merge the two into non-dual experience without residue of Self identity? This is hard to describe though I've tried many times. As in the cosmos is basically made of selves without inherent existence due to infinite regress of particulars which make up infinite selves... so infinite finites made up of infinite finites? We are all individually infinite in our infinitely individual connections of infinite finites. Thus this is the individual cause without residue. Edited August 9, 2010 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) I think to mistake the illumination of this... which is light in meditation as a supreme source is the cause of samsara.. as this experience blinds one from the particulars of this infinite regress and looses one into succumbing to this blinding and formless bliss. Thus absorption and re-expression over and over again... universe to it's end and re-beginning again and again like each thought leading to the next based upon the ideation of a supreme identity or illuminator. Edited August 9, 2010 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheSongsofDistantEarth Posted August 9, 2010 How would you explain infinite regress in very simple terms? Why is experience in meditation considered more valid than than experiences in waking life that include the five senses and perhaps intuition? They are all just experiences, one cannot fully validate meditative experiences, except by comparing them to others. Is it the insight that makes them appear more valid? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) How would you explain infinite regress in very simple terms? Why is experience in meditation considered more valid than than experiences in waking life that include the five senses and perhaps intuition? They are all just experiences, one cannot fully validate meditative experiences, except by comparing them to others. Is it the insight that makes them appear more valid? Songs, Meditation doesn't require or is not limited to sitting in meditation, (if that is what you mean?) it could be 24-7 and include all activities. Om Edited August 9, 2010 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted August 9, 2010 The "experience" is the interpretation by cognition of whatever the organism perceives as a differential between any two inputs. For example, until the light outside drops sufficiently for there to be a noticeable difference then I won't experience it as "dark". And especially not if I am not paying attention to it. Give me the cookie. It's mine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) Hi everyone, I've been off line for the most part these past several months. HAVING experiences. Being part of this wonderous world, as well as the spiritual realms we have opened the doors to... is the source of our actual lives. I do not miss the web much, but do hold this site very dear to my heart. Stay well and be happy with what ever circumstances you happen into, learn from the trials and abide... love to all- Pat Edited August 9, 2010 by Wayfarer64 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 9, 2010 How would you explain infinite regress in very simple terms? Endless linking, no rooftop, no primordial source... just constant regress in all directions. No foot to stand on. Emptiness... utter freedom. Why is experience in meditation considered more valid than than experiences in waking life that include the five senses and perhaps intuition? In one sense it's bringing the mind into awareness beyond the senses, so one becomes more intuitive. On another hand, it's not more valid, it just reveals more of what is possible for the mind beyond the senses. They are all just experiences, one cannot fully validate meditative experiences, except by comparing them to others. Is it the insight that makes them appear more valid? This is true, which is why meditative experiences aren't given the end all be all in Buddhism, but they are in other traditions. Meditative experiences do not inherently exist and are relative, just like your experience through your senses. But, they do add insight into the nature of ones mind with more depth then someone who just has awareness outward turned through the senses without any introversion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 9, 2010 The "experience" is the interpretation by cognition of whatever the organism perceives as a differential between any two inputs. For example, until the light outside drops sufficiently for there to be a noticeable difference then I won't experience it as "dark". And especially not if I am not paying attention to it. Give me the cookie. It's mine But what is the cause of this ability? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 9, 2010 Hi everyone, I've been off line for the most part these past several months. HAVING experiences. Being part of this wonderous world, as well as the spiritual realms we have opened the doors to... is the source of our actual lives. I would say source of our enjoyment of our lives, but I wouldn't say the source of life itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted August 9, 2010 "But what is the cause of this ability?" Involution? Evolution? Is this a question to which you actually know the answer? If so then you just have to explain it in a way that an idiot like me can understand. BTW I know I'm an idiot. By defintion I am. Is it a question to which you don't know the answer and are relying on the collective intellectual power of the TTB's to help you figure out? Is it a question to beg an answer? I don't care for those very much. Is it a question to encourage questioning? Some questions have that effect. It can be worthwhile, or pointless, depending. It's just language after all. Thanks for the excellent cookies Mr Seeker. The chocolate was especially good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2010 Thanks for the excellent cookies Mr Seeker. The chocolate was especially good. Yes, those cookies look very delicious. Regretfully I am on a diet now so I cannot partake. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted August 9, 2010 mmmm... them cookies sure look fine... anyways, back to the present! I think the source of mundane experiences is the sum total of all past, recollect-able memories, for without them, and without the ability to recall them, there cannot be any reference whereby one can describe experience. Safe to say that experience can never belong in the Present. Why? Because that which is being experienced in the 'now time' cannot be truly be called 'experience' while it is being experienced. Therefore, while experiencing an experience, there is actually no source of an experiencer. While one is engaged in looking at the experience, there can only be thoughts about the experience, whereby the experiencer is forgotten; likewise, when one is engaged in looking for the experiencer, there can only be thoughts of the experiencer, whereby at that point the experience is forgotten. It is not possible to look at/for both at the same time. If one examines and calls something an experience, It can only be so after the experience ends, or diminished, and some form of analysis begun from here, that a backdrop of reference is used to objectify the experience and this is what gives birth to a source. In the present there can only be a continuum of experiencing, without an experiencer. In order to discover the source of an experience, one has to break this continuum to make some kind of investigation. This investigation is what gives rise to a source (the self who experiences). Without feeling the need to investigate or analyze, what remains is simply experience experiencing experience, with no self-reference. (or something to this effect anyway) Great mind exercise though! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 10, 2010 Well, I, the experiencer, was unable to fully experience the cookie because all I had was the visual input. But yes, the though of the visual was realized after the fact. But still, I did not experience the smell of the cookie, I did not experience the warmth of the freshly baked cookie and the gooy chocolate, nor did I experience the taste of the cookie. Please note all the "I"'s in the sentence. "I" are the experiencers. In the case of the cookie the experience was from an external source. We can also have experiences as a result of internal sources such as our recall of a pleasant experience. Yes, it is a recall of an actual experience but we can re-experience it numerous times if we like. However, I just finished baking my pizza so I will be experiencing that soon. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 10, 2010 mmmm... them cookies sure look fine... anyways, back to the present! I think the source of mundane experiences is the sum total of all past, recollect-able memories, for without them, and without the ability to recall them, there cannot be any reference whereby one can describe experience. Safe to say that experience can never belong in the Present. Why? Because that which is being experienced in the 'now time' cannot be truly be called 'experience' while it is being experienced. Therefore, while experiencing an experience, there is actually no source of an experiencer. While one is engaged in looking at the experience, there can only be thoughts about the experience, whereby the experiencer is forgotten; likewise, when one is engaged in looking for the experiencer, there can only be thoughts of the experiencer, whereby at that point the experience is forgotten. It is not possible to look at/for both at the same time. If one examines and calls something an experience, It can only be so after the experience ends, or diminished, and some form of analysis begun from here, that a backdrop of reference is used to objectify the experience and this is what gives birth to a source. In the present there can only be a continuum of experiencing, without an experiencer. In order to discover the source of an experience, one has to break this continuum to make some kind of investigation. This investigation is what gives rise to a source (the self who experiences). Without feeling the need to investigate or analyze, what remains is simply experience experiencing experience, with no self-reference. (or something to this effect anyway) Great mind exercise though! When the mind continuum stands still Spirit flys faster than light. Om Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheSongsofDistantEarth Posted August 10, 2010 However, I just finished baking my pizza so I will be experiencing that soon. Peace & Love! Hmmm...pizza? You just said you were on a diet! What's up wid dat, Marble? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted August 10, 2010 "all past, recollect-able memories" Hum. Not quite so sure that "memories" are anywhere else apart from now. I guess it depends on what kind. The ones that stay with you when they ought to go away? Those are the very ones we can't "remember" and that pass for being "ourselves" IMO. Or do you mean the ones you make up to explain what's happening now? I've been reading all kinds of things lately. I guess my head is frying from it. Still, if your current experience is based on a previous one then the gap for error must be pretty large. Better to just look at what's going on in front of you I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted August 10, 2010 There is no such cause. Alternatively, if there is, it is beyond the scope of my awareness and ability to know or recognize, and is thus irrelevant to me. When we say that the mind is primordial, it means nothing has created it, it has no beginning. I agree. Although we may have the concept of "infinite regress" or "cause and conditions" it is impossible to know the entire matrix of the interwoven events that bring about the present. Since we are a part of it, we can never step out of it objectively and see what it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheSongsofDistantEarth Posted August 10, 2010 (edited) OK, so you say experience has no source. So pure Awareness must be a precondition for an experience to 'happen'. Has Awareness always existed! Without beginning and without cause? How can you know this? The only thing that can be known is that Awareness exist right now, and therefore can be the experienced, right? Awareness can speculate that it has always existed, but can that be known? Edited August 10, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 10, 2010 Hmmm...pizza? You just said you were on a diet! What's up wid dat, Marble? Hehehe. Hey. Sometimes we just have to do what we have to do and then pay for it later. But I ate only half of it - the other half will be for tomorrow. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 10, 2010 Better to just look at what's going on in front of you I guess. You got that right! Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funk~ Posted August 10, 2010 What's the cause of that ability? Awareness.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
