What is the source of experience?

[hagar]

After years of pondering, I've landed on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw7lxdiL7NI&NR=1

[xabir2005]

I actually agree with you here although the condition is very difficult to attain and maintain.

 

 

 

Now you know that I cannot agree with this. Hehehe.

 

I do understand what you are pointing at, it is just that I am a holder of the concept of 'cause and effect'.

 

If there is an effect, there was a cause. Things don't just happen spontaniously.

 

Peace & Love!

Things don't happen spontaneously, I agree. But things happen without an experiencer or a doer.

 

Actions arise dependent on intentions and other factors, but no 'I' that is a doer or experiencer could be found.

 

Sounds arise due to the ear, the soundwave, the air, and so on... coming together. Yet there is no hearer apart from hearing.

 

There is no experiencer-experienced division.

 

“When I heard the sound of

the bell ringing, there was no I,

and no bell, just the ringing.”

 

- Zen Master

 

 

Lastly, when you realize non-duality and anatta, there is no question of 'being hard to maintain'. It is only before insight and realization arise that effort is required to 'maintain' some experience.

 

After realization, No-Self becomes effortless, spontaneous, permanent rather than 'arrived' through doing something concentrative and contrived. For example: it is seen that in hearing, there is always only just sound and no hearer, in sensing/feeling, always only sensations with no sensor.

 

After realization, there is no longer a contrived practice of 'letting go the sensor so that sensations are experienced as-they-are without a sensor' or practicing to 'become the sensations', since it is seen that always already, in sensing, there is (always in actual case) no sensor, only sensations, in seeing (always in actuality) only scenery without seer, etc.

 

As a result, self-immolation occurs, not that there was a really existing self to immolate through efforting, but more like a false identity is realized as false and hence relinquished forever, and thus PCE (pure consciousness experience) turns permanent, spontaneous and effortless.

 

There cannot be a moment where one says one has 'lost the PCE/the observer has returned' because the illusion (false identity) that there had ever truly been an observer at any time is lost. The so called 'practice' is thus different from prior-realization as there is no longer a need to do something to get some state (e.g. let go, concentrate/attend to sensations, etc, to drop the 'self' and dissolve into 'just sensations', etc) but simply an effortless and spontaneous 'actualizing of view/realization' in every moment, sensation/experience/action, in other words just seeing, just hearing, just walking is itself spontaneous perfection and is not what ordinary people think of as 'practice'.

 

As Thusness wrote in his Stage 4 realization:

 

There is no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to arise…

There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never has it existed

There is no entry and exit point…

There is no Sound out there or in here…

There is no ‘I’ apart from the arising and ceasing…

The manifold of Presence….

Moment to moment Presences unfolds…

Edited August 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

In Buddhism, as Thusness said, Consciousness/Awareness is not like a mirror reflecting (a feeler/observer) but rather a manifestation. Luminosity (vivid awareness) is an arising luminous manifestation rather than a mirror reflecting. The center here is being replaced with Dependent Origination, the experience however is without subject and object separation.

 

One must learn how to see Appearances as Awareness and all others as conditions. Example, sound is awareness. The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears...are conditions. One should learn to see in this way. All problems arise because we cannot experience Awareness this way.

[Marblehead]

Hi Xabir,

 

That was beautifully presented.

 

I have only one problem with it - I am a Taoist, not a Buddhist. Hehehe.

 

NO, I don't want to drop my "Self". Sorry. It's just not a Taoist concept. We recognize the "Self", the Manifest.

 

But yes, if I were considering adapting Buddhist concepts, what you presented would have been very helpful.

 

You know, what you presented above is really very important and valid from the perception on 'no-self'. And there really were a few concepts that just felt good to me when I read them. But then, they are Buddhist concepts and we both know that there are differences between Buddhist and Taoist concepts.

 

Thanks for sharing that though and I hope that those who are aiming for further understanding of Buddhist Philosophy on this forum will read it.

 

So I still hold to the understanding that for 'me' to have an experience there must be an "I". Therefore the sound still exists if I (or anyone, anything else) have heard it. Granted, if there is no hearer then the was no sound, there was only energy vibration.

 

There was no one around to hear the Big Bang (except for VJ, Hehehe) so there was no sound. But there sure was an awefully great amount of energy vibration.

 

Peace & Love!

[xabir2005]

Hi Xabir,

 

That was beautifully presented.

 

I have only one problem with it - I am a Taoist, not a Buddhist. Hehehe.

 

NO, I don't want to drop my "Self". Sorry. It's just not a Taoist concept. We recognize the "Self", the Manifest.

 

But yes, if I were considering adapting Buddhist concepts, what you presented would have been very helpful.

 

You know, what you presented above is really very important and valid from the perception on 'no-self'. And there really were a few concepts that just felt good to me when I read them. But then, they are Buddhist concepts and we both know that there are differences between Buddhist and Taoist concepts.

 

Thanks for sharing that though and I hope that those who are aiming for further understanding of Buddhist Philosophy on this forum will read it.

 

So I still hold to the understanding that for 'me' to have an experience there must be an "I". Therefore the sound still exists if I (or anyone, anything else) have heard it. Granted, if there is no hearer then the was no sound, there was only energy vibration.

 

There was no one around to hear the Big Bang (except for VJ, Hehehe) so there was no sound. But there sure was an awefully great amount of energy vibration.

 

Peace & Love!

There is an "I", just like there is a "weather". Awareness, Witnessing, Consciousness, whatever you want to call it... is not denied.

 

But what is weather? Can you pinpoint or locate the 'weather' as 'something' 'somewhere'? No, it is just the process of weatherly phenomena - rain, clouds, lightning, etc, ever changing moment to moment.

 

This is the same case for "I", conventionally yes there is an "I", yet it is not a locatable entity apart from the arising and passing phenomena.

 

There is hearing, but apart from hearing a hearer cannot be located. The hearer precisely is the process of hearing. As J Krishnamurti speaks from his realization: The observer IS the Observed.

Edited August 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

There is an "I", just like there is a "weather". Awareness, Witnessing, Consciousness, whatever you want to call it... is not denied.

 

But what is weather? Can you pinpoint or locate the 'weather' as 'something' 'somewhere'? No, it is just the process of weatherly phenomena - rain, clouds, lightning, etc, ever changing moment to moment.

 

This is the same case for "I", conventionally yes there is an "I", yet it is not a locatable entity apart from the arising and passing phenomena.

 

There is hearing, but apart from hearing a hearer cannot be located. The hearer precisely is the process of hearing. As J Krishnamurti speaks from his realization: The observer IS the Observed.

 

Now that's really close but still, no cigar. Hehehe.

 

You are right, I cannot put my finger on "I".

 

Your are right, I cannot put my finger on "hearing".

 

But I still must stick with materialistic conventionalities.

 

BTW I just an hour ago had my hearing aids adjusted for amplification of selected frequencies so now "I" can "hear" better. (That's the truth, really.)

 

"I" love "my" manifest reality.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

"Desire is the root of all experiences, they arise from attention, their origin is contact, they meet in sensation; concentration is the foremost of experiences, and all experiences are mastered by being mindful; wisdom is higher than all experiences.. their essence is liberation; all experiences merge in the deathless, and conclude with nibbana."

(Buddha - from the Roots discourse - Anguttara Nikaya)

 

 

(was flipping thru a friend's blog and stumbled upon the above)

[Marblehead]

"Desire is the root of all experiences, they arise from attention, their origin is contact, they meet in sensation; concentration is the foremost of experiences, and all experiences are mastered by being mindful; wisdom is higher than all experiences.. their essence is liberation; all experiences merge in the deathless, and conclude with nibbana."

(Buddha - from the Roots discourse - Anguttara Nikaya)

 

 

(was flipping thru a friend's blog and stumbled upon the above)

 

Well, you could have kept it to yourself as far as I'm concerned. Hehehe.

 

So I desire to have experiences. Big deal. So you keep your wisdom and I will continue to have experiences, Okay?

 

I wish that quote above didn't sound like someone totally fed up with reality. Sad.

 

Life is wonderful!!! Experiences, even those that cause us pain, are indicators that we are alive and living a real life.

 

Go ahead! Have an experience! It might even feel good!

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

What is the source of experience?

 

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created or destroyed and only changes form. In other words energy has always existed. Therefor, the source is energy.

 

To advance an analysis any further is hopeless!

 

 

ralis

[Apech]

[Vajrahridaya]

"Desire is the root of all experiences, they arise from attention, their origin is contact, they meet in sensation; concentration is the foremost of experiences, and all experiences are mastered by being mindful; wisdom is higher than all experiences.. their essence is liberation; all experiences merge in the deathless, and conclude with nibbana."

(Buddha - from the Roots discourse - Anguttara Nikaya)

 

 

(was flipping thru a friend's blog and stumbled upon the above)

 

Very nice!

[Vajrahridaya]

Well, you could have kept it to yourself as far as I'm concerned. Hehehe.

 

So I desire to have experiences. Big deal. So you keep your wisdom and I will continue to have experiences, Okay?

 

I wish that quote above didn't sound like someone totally fed up with reality. Sad.

 

Life is wonderful!!! Experiences, even those that cause us pain, are indicators that we are alive and living a real life.

 

Go ahead! Have an experience! It might even feel good!

 

Peace & Love!

 

That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying that through wisdom insight, all experiences are liberation. That all experiences are in fact Nirvana. The Buddha is saying that now life is truly enjoyable!

[Marblehead]

That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying that through wisdom insight, all experiences are liberation. That all experiences are in fact Nirvana. The Buddha is saying that now life is truly enjoyable!

 

Well, why not just say that and stop beating around the bush?

 

Peace & Love!

[xabir2005]

[gendao]

Sometimes people rebuke me saying You monks are just trying to escape

from the real world!.

 

I reply Well done! At last someone else has understood Buddhism!

 

Whats wrong with escapism, especially when one realises that the real world

is the harsh prison

Except I thought Buddhism was about escaping the "illusive" prison into the real world. Edited August 12, 2010 by vortex

[xabir2005]

Except I thought Buddhism was about escaping the "illusive" prison into the real world.

Precisely.

 

True liberation and wonder is found through the cessation of ignorance, clinging, suffering. This is called Nirvana. And this is through realizing the nature of reality which is beyond our delusion of inherently existing self and inherently existing world. At which point all our experience are realized to be luminous and empty.

 

Seeking/craving for happiness through samsaric experiences arise due to delusion of the true nature of reality, and only causes endless sufferings. This is called Samsara.

 

Nirvana can be experienced while we are alive. But it is not found through seeking and grasping. It is found through great wisdom and insight.

Edited August 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

 

If you want to be free from sufferings and live a life of wonder and bliss, the only way is to become enlightened and liberated from the chains of desire and craving.

 

 

I am already free, my good friend. Honestly, I was never chained by desires and cravings.

 

I'm still not sure about enlightenment though. Hehehe.

 

I do not suffer (Very often, hehehe. I need keep this honest.) but I do have physical pains now and then. Yeah, I'm getting old.

 

Yes, some suffering is caused by holding to something unpleasant instead of letting it go. I do have that experience on rare occasions. I know better than to allow it but I think my ego gets involved and that's where I mess up.

 

Life is wonderful and real, but at the same time are inherently unsatisfactory and full of sufferings.

 

I agree, life is wonderful and real. But I suggest that if we find it unsatisfactory then it is our own expectations (ego) that is at fault.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Precisely.

 

True liberation and wonder is found through the cessation of ignorance, clinging, suffering. This is called Nirvana. And this is through realizing the nature of reality which is beyond our delusion of inherently existing self and inherently existing world. At which point all our experience are realized to be luminous and empty.

Seeking/craving for happiness through samsaric experiences arise due to delusion of the true nature of reality, and only causes endless sufferings. This is called Samsara.

 

Nirvana can be experienced while we are alive. But it is not found through seeking and grasping. It is found through great wisdom and insight.

 

Again, an excellent post except that I do not accept the phrase I highlighted in red.

 

Peace & Love!

[xabir2005]

I am already free, my good friend. Honestly, I was never chained by desires and cravings.

It's happening every moment, some subtle attraction, aversion, ignorance is always there. Even if you do not have very gross level desires at the moment.

 

There are three kinds of cravings that all samsaric beings are chained by:

 

craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming/existence, and craving for no-becoming/non-existence.

 

So there is craving for pleasures, attachment to existence, and aversion. I am not aware that any one no longer craves for pleasures, is not attached to existence, and do not have aversion for unpleasant experiences. Unless such a being is an Arhant, already liberated.

I'm still not sure about enlightenment though. Hehehe.

 

I do not suffer (Very often, hehehe. I need keep this honest.) but I do have physical pains now and then. Yeah, I'm getting old.

 

Yes, some suffering is caused by holding to something unpleasant instead of letting it go. I do have that experience on rare occasions. I know better than to allow it but I think my ego gets involved and that's where I mess up.

 

Life is wonderful and real, but at the same time are inherently unsatisfactory and full of sufferings.

 

I agree, life is wonderful and real. But I suggest that if we find it unsatisfactory then it is our own expectations (ego) that is at fault.

 

Peace & Love!

Unsatisfactoriness is inherent in all experience, because all experience is arising and subsiding in lightning speed every single moment.

 

Yet we solidify these experiences into an object of grasping, and solidify a 'self' out of it which is the experiencer and owner of various objects. So by seeing inherently and dualizing the non-dual nature of reality, we no longer see things as it is and start grasping after illusory things. We think that satisfaction comes from 'the other side', the pleasurable objects, etc. We constantly try to bridge the unbridgeable gap between subject and object (e.g. 'me' craving over 'that thing'), not knowing that such division is non-existent, and that there isn't an inherent subject or inherent object of grasping. Such activities are suffering.

 

But since things do not exist the way we think of them (as solid, inherent, permanent, graspable), we are bound to suffer because we are not living in reality. We think it's there for us to seek and grasp, but there isn't. Whatever we experience is constantly dissolving every single moment. What is there to grasp, what is there to 'satisfy', if it is constantly dissolving every single moment?

 

Satisfaction cannot come from grasping onto what is ungraspable and transient. Satisfaction is simply the appeasement of dissatisfaction, which comes from relinquishing craving and clinging, and that is Nirvana. That comes from deep insight that sees through the solidity of experience and the subject-object duality, all of which causes grasping and seeking after our illusion of solid external objects.

 

Even pleasant states of experiences, the most pleasurable samsaric existence - the jhanas, are characterized by impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not-self/not-mine.

 

Whatever experience is wonderful as it is as the expression of luminosity and emptiness, without subject-object duality, the nature of reality, it is only that we fail to realize it's true nature that we start grasping, dualizing, craving, and making suffering for ourselves.

 

Here it is seen that everything is just an immediate non-dual expression of reality, there is only total authentication of immediate non-dual reality without grasping, craving, aversion involved.

Edited August 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

It's happening every moment, some subtle attraction, aversion, ignorance is always there. Even if you do not have very gross level desires at the moment.

 

There are three kinds of cravings that all samsaric beings are chained by:

 

craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming/existence, and craving for no-becoming/non-existence.

 

So there is craving for pleasures, attachment to existence, and aversion. I am not aware that any one no longer craves for pleasures, is not attached to existence, and do not have aversion for unpleasant experiences. Unless such a being is an Arhant, already liberated.

 

Well. First I will state that my life is pretty much directed by inspiration and definately not by any cravings or desires. Of course, I have already mentioned that I have realized that I have 'enough' so there is no need for cravings or desires.

 

I don't believe I actually seek out pleasure but I do make a conscious effort to avoid pain.

 

Attachment to existence? Well, sure. I am that. But that is consistent with Taoist Philosophy.

 

Ownership and possessions? Well, sure, I am that. I own my house and many possessions within and without on my property. I see no problem with that as long as I don't make them a part of me, that is, to be excessively attached to those possessions.

 

So, no, I will not give you my music collection just to prove that I am not attached to it.

 

Now, I know you are talking about permanence. I agree. No thing lasts forever. That should be a given. Storms destroy houses. Auto accidents destroy vehicles. All living essences will die. But we don't have to suffer over the fact that we will one day die. And we don't have to suffer because we don't have everything we want - if we didn't want so much maybe we could find contentment.

 

So, yes, in the vast majority of instances externals are the source of my experiences. But I still have some self generated experiences, especially all the thoughts I create in my mind.

 

And life goes on. Accept it or try to escape it.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Well. First I will state that my life is pretty much directed by inspiration and definately not by any cravings or desires. Of course, I have already mentioned that I have realized that I have 'enough' so there is no need for cravings or desires.

 

Peace & Love!

Those who perceive their current state is without need also brings about causes that will create the need to sustain that particular state they think they have attained, worked, and strived hard for. The need to protect and to preserve is a strong urge. That too is essentially a form of desire and craving.

 

These feelings, according to Buddhist understanding, are not limited to craving for material possessions or the desiring of non-material things - it goes beyond that, to the understanding that any form of need has the potential (or contain the seeds) to bring about dissatisfaction, and in order to avoid the seeds from leading to a fruition of dissatisfaction, the way prescribed is to bring about the cessation of wrong views (as in seeing separation of self and other/subject and object) thru seeing directly into the nature of reality, which is the inseparability of mind and its arisings. The more one concentrates on the arisings, the more real the experience becomes. Whereupon a time will come when one becomes so caught up by the concentration on objects (the word is 'distraction') that the wisdom beneath, which is the insight that objects and mind arises in tandem as units of consciousness, becomes blurred. This is the root cause of dukkha, or unsatisfactoriness. Some want to use the word 'suffering' for dukkha, which is also correct, but has a less pleasant connotation. Not everyone accepts they are suffering, but no one can deny their life is so perfect that not a trace of unsatisfactoriness is present.

 

So the Buddha taught that this is neither good or bad - this ability to concentrate. He suggests to practitioners to look deeply into the essence of the principle behind this ability, which, without the right seeing, ties one down to concentrating on objects of desire and being focussed on preventing 'bad' things from happening in one's life. The Buddha taught that we can learn to understand that this energy (that of one's ability to concentrate) can be transformed and then used as a tool for liberation instead of a tool for chaining one to cyclical, samsaric tendencies, thoughts and actions. Instead of concentrating on what is perceived as objects of distraction (meaning things we think are separate and outside of us), He encouraged to use the same concentrative ability for turning inwards, thru meditative practices, which, when stabilised, will lead to transcendent insights, one of which is the 'higher seeing' of the true nature of emptiness and luminosity.

 

In the Bhikkhu Sutta, the Buddha declares, "Monks, whatsoever one stays obsessed with, that is what one is measured by".

 

He elaborates on this:

 

If one does not stay obsessed with form, Monks, that is not what one is measured by. Whatsoever one is not measured by, that is not how one is classified.

 

If one does not stay obsessed with feeling/perception/fabrications, Monks, that is not what one is measured by. Whatsoever one is not measured by, that is not how one is classified.

 

If one does not stay obsessed with consciousness, Monks, that is not what one is measured by. Whatsoever one is not measured by, that is not how one is classified.

 

 

Whatever one is not measured by (meaning there is no defiling thoughts of grasping and aversion), then that is not how one is classified.

 

In this teaching the Buddha declares that we can only measure or classify "what one is" when we obsess(concentrate) over the 5 aggregates (form, feeling, perception, fabrications and consciousness) or the diversity of experiences whereby we have the normal tendency to give it an alternate reality by assigning too much conceptual identity to the process, and this, according to some Buddhist thinkers, is what gives rise to static notions of I, Me and Mine. (The key word being static).

 

Conversely, if we do not obsess or crave for sense gratification thru the 5 aggregates of experience, we release then our participation in the creation of false boundaries, of notions of the 'independent' being, and thus break the chains of limited and static measurements and stages of self-identification, which then leads ultimately to the dissolution of all wrong views. With the dissolution of wrong views, the positive causes or seeds of liberation and even beyond liberation are sown, leading one to the other shore, metaphorically speaking.

 

 

"We all are given the keys to liberation; these are also the very same keys that unlock the gates to personal hell."

[3bob]

There is one true desire which all other desires are offshoots of...

 

Also, there is no "liberation" in attempts at destroying the offshoots of this true,

for liberation comes in mastering the offshoots - to find the true.

 

Om

[Mark Foote]

 

Actions arise, without doer.

 

Seeing happens, without seer.

 

Hearing happens, without hearer.

 

 

The plane of infinite consciousness, like the plane of infinite ether and the plane of "no-thing", to me are signs of the concentration connected with the ability to breathe, i.e., without a return to the sign (which has no "returner") the breath feels physically impeded.

 

Shunryu Suzuki said that when a person reading a book is not disturbed by the sound of a bluejay, the sound can enter that person's heart, and lo and behold the sound of the bluejay reads the book. This is the experience of the location in consciousness as consciousness takes place "hitting" the fascial stretch already in existence to generate action, action necessary to breath, action that opens feeling.

 

who is it that thus comes?- to say it is something doesn't hit it.

[Marblehead]

Those who perceive their current state is without need also brings about causes that will create the need to sustain that particular state they think they have attained, worked, and strived hard for. The need to protect and to preserve is a strong urge. That too is essentially a form of desire and craving.

 

Now you know that is a totally unacceptable arguement to use against me. Remember, I am not a Buddhist - I am a Taoist.

 

But I none-the-less hope that someone finds value in the words of the post.

 

I will not become a nihilist no matter what anyone says.

 

I am an optimist and a positivist. But I am also a realist.

 

And I will continue experiencing my experiences and feel them to their fullest and then let them go their merry way.

 

Peace & Love!

[Mark Foote]

 

There is an apparent realness quality to 'experience' in the world if I can use that phrase and the source of this is our own confidence that of the realness of what is happening. However this is not a source in the way the question is phrased.

 

 

I think this cuts to the heart of the difficulty in the inner life, if I may call it that: the verification of the reality of the relationships that are experienced. It's a lot like physics, if I may, or mathematics; when we can describe the relationships we have intuited from our internal experience, then we are in a position to verify our description and to begin to discover "an apparent realness quality" with regard to internal experience. It's just a little trickier than the external world; sort of like navigating around the side of a mountain in the dark, in the dense fog.

 

Speaking of which, apparently there are Polynesians who can navigate from one island to another island that's over the horizon in the dark without a compass or map. I heard this in a class at UC Berkeley on left brain-right brain phenomena about forty years ago, and the instructor added that they explained how they did it, but it was gibberish. Like most of the suttas and Taoist manuscripts, if you ask me; there are varying degrees of mastery, varying abilities to communicate mastery, and different explanations of the correct physical postures or movements. I do accept that it's up to me to work out my own salvation, and I'm grateful to those who really did verify relationships and stick with describing what they verified. You know.