fulfillment & renunciation

[3bob]

"The highest fulfillment is the result of the highest renunciation. The less you want, the more you get. He who wants nothing from the world finds the world falling at his feet. Even the gods are afraid of him who wants nothing for himself"

 

Swami Krishnananda, D.L.S

Edited August 10, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Sorry 3Bob. I don't buy this one at all.

 

It is not consistent with my experiences in life nor with any examples I can recall.

 

It is a nice thought though.

 

Yes, we should lessen our desires. Life is a lot easier when we don't want so many material things.

 

Peace & Love!

[passenger1980]

This could be easily misunderstood. One should not pursue a life of renunciation for the sake of it. What this implies is the freedom that comes from letting go. As we learn to let go, we finally begin to experience life and reality without any anxiety or extreme suffering.

[3bob]

Sorry 3Bob. I don't buy this one at all.

 

It is not consistent with my experiences in life nor with any examples I can recall.

 

It is a nice thought though.

 

Yes, we should lessen our desires. Life is a lot easier when we don't want so many material things.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Ok MH,

Under the conditons of being a householder and more so for a father/mother there are definite limits as to what can be renounced and what is realistically needed; whereas for a Taoist Sage/temple worker/hermit/monk/nun/etc. there are different possibilies for them when it comes to certain types of renunciation.

 

Here are some examples below that I see as being along the lines of the quote from Swami Krishnananda:

(underlines added by me)

 

T.T.C. chapter 48.

 

Learning consists in daily accumulating;

The practice of Tao consists in daily diminishing.

 

Keep on diminishing and diminishing,

Until you reach the state of Non-Ado.

No-Ado, and yet nothing is left undone.

 

To win the world, one must renounce all.

If one still has private ends to serve,

One will never be able to win the world.

 

(with one just aspect of the word "win" meaning to me to be

master of ones interactions with the world)

 

chapter 7.

 

HEAVEN lasts long, and Earth abides.

What is the secret of their durability?

Is it not because they do not live for themselves

That they can live so long?

 

Therefore, the Sage wants to remain behind,

But finds himself at the head of others;

Reckons himself out,

 

But finds himself safe and secure.

Is it not because he is selfless

That his Self is realised?

 

chapter 66.

 

HOW does the sea become the king of all streams?

Because it lies lower than they!

Hence it is the king of all streams.

 

Therefore, the Sage reigns over the people by humbling

himself in speech;

And leads the people by putting himself behind.

 

Thus it is that when a Sage stands above the people,

they do not feel the heaviness of his weight;

 

And when he stands in front of the people, they do not

feel hurt.

 

Therefore all the world is glad to push him forward

without getting tired of him.

 

Just because he strives with nobody,

Nobody can ever strive with him.

 

81.

SINCERE words are not sweet,

Sweet words are not sincere.

Good men are not argumentative,

The argumentative are not good.

The wise are not erudite,

The erudite are not wise.

 

The Sage does not take to hoarding.

The more he lives for others, the fuller is his life.

The more he gives, the more he abounds.

 

The Way of Heaven is to benefit, not to harm.

The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, not to strive

with anyone.

 

Good evening

[Marblehead]

Oh My Goodness 3Bob!

 

If I respond to this I will show that I find inconsistencies bewteen the TTC and life as I have observed it during my lifetime.

 

But you know that I will not just remain silent so here goes.

 

To win the world, one must renounce all.

 

History shows that it has been those who accumulate and have a desire to control others who have won and ruled the world. This seems to have been true throughout all of recorded history.

 

Is it not because he is selfless

That his Self is realised?

 

No, I don't buy that. It is not consistent with the way nature works. It seems to me that it is those who are selfless who are taken advantage of. When we are selfless we become the puppets of others because there will always be those who will take advantage of anyone who does not respect their Self and protect the right to be an individual.

 

Therefore all the world is glad to push him forward

without getting tired of him.

 

Well, of course, there are many who will pass their responsibility onto others. Hey!, if I can put my responsibility on you I don't need to accept responsibility for my own actions. When things go well we say "We did it", but when things go wrong we say, "You screwed up!"

 

The more he lives for others, the fuller is his life.

The more he gives, the more he abounds.

 

The more he lives for others the more others will take advantage of him. The more he gives the more others will take from him. I can't see where a person can take pride in being used and abused. Sure, give when you have an excess. This is the right thing to do. But to give and allow to be taken from will put you in the condition of not having enough. I don't see where this could bring on a felling of having an abundance.

 

However, this is a wonderful philosophy (the above quotes spoken to) if we lived in a perfect world and everyone did the 'right thing'. I don't see that world at the moment. Actually, from my reading of history I would suggest that such a condition is very rare except in very small societies.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Oh My Goodness 3Bob!

 

If I respond to this I will show that I find inconsistencies bewteen the TTC and life as I have observed it during my lifetime.

 

But you know that I will not just remain silent so here goes.

 

To win the world, one must renounce all.

 

History shows that it has been those who accumulate and have a desire to control others who have won and ruled the world. This seems to have been true throughout all of recorded history.

 

Is it not because he is selfless

That his Self is realised?

 

No, I don't buy that. It is not consistent with the way nature works. It seems to me that it is those who are selfless who are taken advantage of. When we are selfless we become the puppets of others because there will always be those who will take advantage of anyone who does not respect their Self and protect the right to be an individual.

 

Therefore all the world is glad to push him forward

without getting tired of him.

 

Well, of course, there are many who will pass their responsibility onto others. Hey!, if I can put my responsibility on you I don't need to accept responsibility for my own actions. When things go well we say "We did it", but when things go wrong we say, "You screwed up!"

 

The more he lives for others, the fuller is his life.

The more he gives, the more he abounds.

 

The more he lives for others the more others will take advantage of him. The more he gives the more others will take from him. I can't see where a person can take pride in being used and abused. Sure, give when you have an excess. This is the right thing to do. But to give and allow to be taken from will put you in the condition of not having enough. I don't see where this could bring on a felling of having an abundance.

 

However, this is a wonderful philosophy (the above quotes spoken to) if we lived in a perfect world and everyone did the 'right thing'. I don't see that world at the moment. Actually, from my reading of history I would suggest that such a condition is very rare except in very small societies.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hello MH,

 

It sounds to me that your pov is mostly looking at things from the "ways of world"

or from the laws of the street and not from the Way of the Sage? (who wrote the T.T.C.) "Oh my goodness"

 

To win the world in sense of:

 

"...To be great is to go on,

To go on is to be far,

To be far is to return.

Hence, "Tao is great,

Heaven is great,

Earth is great,

King is great."

Thus, the king is one of the great four in the Universe..." T.T.C. 25

 

(which is not in the context of being a King RAT who lords it over on others)

 

[Everything]

"The highest fulfillment is the result of the highest renunciation. The less you want, the more you get. He who wants nothing from the world finds the world falling at his feet. Even the gods are afraid of him who wants nothing for himself"

 

Swami Krishnananda, D.L.S

 

Fulfillment doesn't come after "wanting less." It is the other way around. "Wanting less" comes after fulfillment." Right?

 

Don't forget how hard it is to reaching true fulfillment! Most people die in fear and regret, because most people simply have never reached durable fulfillment in life. Those who have, die in peace and without fear, thus the great ancient wise men say to them "Immortal." Not even death can touch him. His ways will seem mysterious, and all powerful. They also call him "dragon." Who know how dragons surmount wind and cloud into heaven? This is what is ment by dragon. Neither traps, arrows nor nets will catch a dragon. This will induce fear into the hearts of his enemies. How can you face an enemy that you cannot kill?

 

"Even the gods are afraid of him who wants nothing for himself." As you put it.

 

Hope this will explain things for you.

[Marblehead]

Hello MH,

 

It sounds to me that your pov is mostly looking at things from the "ways of world"

or from the laws of the street and not from the Way of the Sage? (who wrote the T.T.C.) "Oh my goodness"

 

 

 

Hehehe. Yep. You caught me talking about how the world really is again. I just can't help that because this is where I live.

 

Yes, it is fun to philosophize and speak in idealist terms. But then we turn the computer off and guess what? Damn! I walked straight into the real world. Gets your attention real quick.

 

But, as I have pointed out before, when I am in "my world" I can live the idealistic philosophy.

 

You know, no everyone plays the game by the same rules. Most people have their own rules. And most people haven't even heard of Taoism or Lao Tzu.

 

So, yes, we can talk about the teachings of Lao Tzu. I enjoy that very much. But every now and then I will insert a bit of reality into the discussion I am involved in. That's generally a big shock for most people.

 

Look at you: "Oh my goodness." Hehehe.

 

I hope I have never suggested that I live my life according to the TTC word for word. If I ever have I will state right now: "I was lying."

 

And an additional comment: There have been some kings who were not so great. In fact, some were very evil. Oh!, I so much don't like statements of absolutes.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Fulfillment doesn't come after "wanting less." It is the other way around. "Wanting less" comes after fulfillment." Right?

 

Hi Everything,

 

Thanks for joining the discussion.

 

Yes, fulfillment comes when we know we have enough. When we have enough we are no longer in want. Wanting less is a result of knowing how much is enough. Of course, to not be in want allows for inner peace and contentment. (I's still working on how to include "happy" in that. Hehehe.)

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hehehe. Yep. You caught me talking about how the world really is again. I just can't help that because this is where I live.

 

Yes, it is fun to philosophize and speak in idealist terms. But then we turn the computer off and guess what? Damn! I walked straight into the real world. Gets your attention real quick.

 

But, as I have pointed out before, when I am in "my world" I can live the idealistic philosophy.

 

You know, no everyone plays the game by the same rules. Most people have their own rules. And most people haven't even heard of Taoism or Lao Tzu.

 

So, yes, we can talk about the teachings of Lao Tzu. I enjoy that very much. But every now and then I will insert a bit of reality into the discussion I am involved in. That's generally a big shock for most people.

 

Look at you: "Oh my goodness." Hehehe.

 

I hope I have never suggested that I live my life according to the TTC word for word. If I ever have I will state right now: "I was lying."

 

And an additional comment: There have been some kings who were not so great. In fact, some were very evil. Oh!, I so much don't like statements of absolutes.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Ime the law of the street or every rat for himself is actually not a very real world when it comes to spiritual satisfaction and harmony; for such is the far lesser world that is more or less against the Tao, "And what is against Tao will soon cease to be".

 

Om

[Marblehead]

Ime the law of the street or every rat for himself is actually not a very real world when it comes to spiritual satisfaction and harmony; for such is the far lesser world that is more or less against the Tao, "And what is against Tao will soon cease to be".

 

Om

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I will be soon to cease to be anyhow so I just need to make sure nobody helps me along that journey.

 

No, living on the streets couldn't possibly be a very spiritual experience. That's one of the reasons I don't go out very often. My spirituality is one of the things I leave home when I do go out on the streets.

 

Normally when I go out I say to myself, "I will not let anyone screw up my day." I had to go out Monday and I forgot to say that. Guess what. Well, I'm almost over it. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hello MH,

Well I meant more like if one is living according to the law of every rat for himself, but not being on the street per-se. Thus countless people and also great Sages and or Masters are also tested on "street" so to speak, and those that overcome have fully earned the greatest respect of all for their mind and beingness is free of falling for or joining in with unwholesome forces.

[Marblehead]

Hello MH,

Well I meant more like if one is living according to the law of every rat for himself, but not being on the street per-se. Thus countless people and also great Sages and or Masters are also tested on "street" so to speak, and those that overcome have fully earned the greatest respect of all for their mind and beingness is free of falling for or joining in with unwholesome forces.

 

Well, darn. All I can do is agree with you now.

 

Well, wait a minute. I have something to add.

 

Yes, we all are tested by life. Those who do not stumble at all are those who know themselves and are at ease with their condition. Some of us stumble but never fall. Others fall so often that they begin to believe that laying down is their natural state.

 

Doesn't this go back to fulfillment? If we are fulfilled (at peace with our Self) there is little that would ever cause us to fall.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Edit to add:

 

But that doesn't mean we have to deny ourself anything. Even without striving, whatever comes our way that is of value to us is worthy of accepting.

 

There. Now I'm done. Hehehe.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Marblehead