when tongue on the palate, teeth together or not?

[immortal_sister]

i don't think i have heard this mentioned anywhere, and i have been wondering about this for some time. when one is meditating or doing energetic practices, and placing the tip of the tongue on the roof of the mouth, do you want your teeth together, closed, or separate with a loose jaw of sorts? i am wondering if there would be different energetic effects in either cases?

 

i have tried both and have not noticed any major differences. i would appreciate any input.

[VCraigP]

i don't think i have heard this mentioned anywhere, and i have been wondering about this for some time. when one is meditating or doing energetic practices, and placing the tip of the tongue on the roof of the mouth, do you want your teeth together, closed, or separate with a loose jaw of sorts? i am wondering if there would be different energetic effects in either cases?

 

i have tried both and have not noticed any major differences. i would appreciate any input.

 

My teacher Zhongxian Wu insists on teeth together. I do find a difference. Initially this was challenging as I did HT meditations for years with tongue up but teeth apart.

I recommend teeth together. Not clenched of course but held together.

 

Craig

[suninmyeyes]

Same here teeth together,not clenched.

[immortal_sister]

My teacher Zhongxian Wu insists on teeth together. I do find a difference. Initially this was challenging as I did HT meditations for years with tongue up but teeth apart.

I recommend teeth together. Not clenched of course but held together.

 

Craig

 

thanks for the answer. i had always assumed that teeth together was better. but i am trying to understand why, any idea what the energetic effect is? does it help connect the front and back channels? and would there be times when teeth apart would be better?

 

so many questions..

[VCraigP]

thanks for the answer. i had always assumed that teeth together was better. but i am trying to understand why, any idea what the energetic effect is? does it help connect the front and back channels? and would there be times when teeth apart would be better?

 

so many questions..

 

Makes a better energetic connection than just the tongue.

 

Teeth are the tips of the bones. With Teeth apart there is still an opening instead of a closed circuit. Of course the Du and Ren channels connect even without the tongue touching, but it is a matter of maximizing that connection to facilitate the flow. I would say this creates a much stronger connection from head downward through the skeletal system. Firmness is better than looseness in most practices, so this is a firm connection.

 

The practices with teeth apart appear to be those with breathing out through the mouth which are designed to balance by expelling excess or sick Qi. Conversely mouth closed is to make a sealed container for qi and an unbroken channel for movement of qi.

 

Craig

[Kronos]

Master Wang sais teeth together too

[goldisheavy]

The jaw should be relaxed if possible. Keeping the teeth together is contrary to relaxation. It's a bad habit.

[devoid]

I have the teeth very close: Almost, but not touching. IMHO the tongue takes care of the connection between the governing and conception vessels while the rest of the face, jaws and mouth may relax.

[immortal_sister]

I have the teeth very close: Almost, but not touching. IMHO the tongue takes care of the connection between the governing and conception vessels while the rest of the face, jaws and mouth may relax.

 

that resonates with me too... thats what i have tended to do, simply because having the teeth together requires me to hold tension in the jaw, and i find it distracting. my jaw is also kind of screwed up and my teeth don't align quite right

[Sahaj Nath]

The jaw should be relaxed if possible. Keeping the teeth together is contrary to relaxation. It's a bad habit.

 

+1

 

I have the teeth very close: Almost, but not touching. IMHO the tongue takes care of the connection between the governing and conception vessels while the rest of the face, jaws and mouth may relax.

 

i agree with your reasoning, except i give no consideration to how close or apart my teeth are; i just go with relaxed & natural.

 

 

 

keep to what feels natural, and it's hard to go wrong. for me, teeth together requires a degree of tension, so i don't do it. i haven't found that it has held me back in any way in my development.

 

even when my teeth have felt electrical i have felt no natural impulse to bring my teeth together, and eventually the energy always drains through the tongue.

 

and speaking of tongues, people often ask about where on the pallet the tongue should be as well. again, i would also recommend keeping to what feels natural. i've read books and talked to teachers who recommend placing the tongue in the highest arch in the roof of the mouth, but until i feel a natural inclination to do that, it will not be my technique.

 

your own nature has in intelligence with regard to these types of things. we are designed to work this way, so give some ample consideration to what feels right, and if you can find sources that support it (even if there's a split), then at least you know that there are others who do it that way as well, and you can trust that.

 

for whatever that's worth.

[immortal_sister]

thank you for your post hundun. that definitely tends to be my approach to these things, "do what feels natural and correct". sometimes there are some little adjustments that i am told about that end up being fairly important, but i never really asked anyone about the teeth.

same for the location of the tongue. i have heard schools say to place it as far back as you can. frankly thats just painful!! i completely understand why that would be used and in what context. but for what i am doing right now, i really can't imagine that to be necessary. seems like relaxation and doing what feels natural is where its at for me

[宁]

My teacher Zhongxian Wu ...

 

I don't like the vibes I get from this guy. Craig, are u sure?

[VCraigP]

I don't like the vibes I get from this guy. Craig, are u sure?

 

? ?? !!! ? ??

Huh?

 

Yes.....REALLLLLY SURE.

 

Have you met Master Wu in person? I have studied with him since 2006. I get really good vibes from him in person and long distance.

 

Hopefully you are thinking of someone else?

 

www.masterwu.net

 

is his website.

 

PS - a lot of people don't get a good vibe from M.Chia. do you? I have also met him in person (many, many times) and don't get a bad vibe from him. My thoughts and feelings about Chia and Wu are more complex than good vibe, bad vibe though. Perhaps you can expand on your thoughts?

 

PPS - to not hijack this thread let me say again that Wu's approach is very traditional. I believe the common Taoist practice is tongue up AND teeth closed. Overall its quite a minor point however I found it made a distinct difference in practice.

[immortal_sister]

PPS - to not hijack this thread let me say again that Wu's approach is very traditional. I believe the common Taoist practice is tongue up AND teeth closed. Overall its quite a minor point however I found it made a distinct difference in practice.

 

thank you for your insight craig. i will certainly be asking my teacher next time i see her. until then i will experiment a little with both.

 

last night during meditation i kept my teeth slightly apart as i normally do when i relax completely, and i did notice that i could feel the energetic connection between my teeth. if i put my focus there it felt as if my teeth were touching even though they weren't. very interesting.

[三江源]

thank you for your insight craig. i will certainly be asking my teacher next time i see her. until then i will experiment a little with both.

 

last night during meditation i kept my teeth slightly apart as i normally do when i relax completely, and i did notice that i could feel the energetic connection between my teeth. if i put my focus there it felt as if my teeth were touching even though they weren't. very interesting.

 

FWIW sister, I was taught by a very trad chinese master too and he said the physical contact isnt necessary between the teeth, and tension from closed jaw was counter productive.. the energy flows anyhow, it 'jumps'!

 

Maybe it's a 'chocolate or butterscotch' type question...

[immortal_sister]

Maybe it's a 'chocolate or butterscotch' type question...

 

it appears to be! always nice to hear other people's opinion and experiences, even if its ultimately a matter of preference.

[三江源]

it appears to be! always nice to hear other people's opinion and experiences, even if its ultimately a matter of preference.

 

Yes, it is. It's a nice question to have looked at together, I'm glad you brought it up.

[Ya Mu]

... I was taught by a very trad chinese master too and he said the physical contact isnt necessary between the teeth, and tension from closed jaw was counter productive.. the energy flows anyhow, it 'jumps'!

...

This is what I was taught as well. I do see Craig's point but I haven't found it to make any difference and actually couldn't personally do this teeth together thing if it did.

 

I do believe it is key to not have tension. Some people can put teeth together without tension while others, such as myself, would have vast problems if they attempted it this way. The energy will jump and with the tongue connection it forms a very good circuit.

[宁]

www.masterwu.net

 

is his website.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the man's syllabus - checked his website.

Especially the concept of a 28 Lunar Mansions Qigong practice is most intriguing.

Dunno. I hope I'm just wrong. I feel a strong connection with the Yin World in him.

 

PS: Regarding the teeth question, there was a chart with the teeth and correspondent meridians, somewhere on this forum.

Definately teeth touching each other, imo.

[onelove]

Don't get me wrong, I like the man's syllabus - checked his website.

Especially the concept of a 28 Lunar Mansions Qigong practice is most intriguing.

Dunno. I hope I'm just wrong. I feel a strong connection with the Yin World in him.

 

PS: Regarding the teeth question, there was a chart with the teeth and correspondent meridians, somewhere on this forum.

Definately teeth touching each other, imo.

 

I took a workshop from Master Wu this spring and struggled with the teeth together thing for a while but gave it a go for the 49 day period that I "tried on" the form he taught. After some time I found it was very easy to close the teeth without tension, and the process of learning how to do this helped me connect with a tension I've held in my jaw for some time and finally release it. I don't always try and keep the teeth together now though, I do what comes naturally. I just include the teeth in the list as I scan my posture for alignment and tension.

 

As for the vibes, for me nothing but good vibes from the man. Great forms too. Not my primary teacher but I enjoy his traditional approach to teaching the wisdom tradition (Yi Jing, astrology, cosmology) as an integral part of his gigong and taiji.

[VCraigP]

This is what I was taught as well. I do see Craig's point but I haven't found it to make any difference and actually couldn't personally do this teeth together thing if it did.

 

I do believe it is key to not have tension. Some people can put teeth together without tension while others, such as myself, would have vast problems if they attempted it this way. The energy will jump and with the tongue connection it forms a very good circuit.

 

 

I agree with Ya Mu, Hundun that one should not force a position which causes tension. Also depending upon ones oral issues it may never be possible to keep teeth touching and have relaxation. Finding what is natural is the watercourse way it is resonant and consistent with the principles of Taoism.

Let me reiterate my experience. I did meditation and chi kung of the healing tao school for many, many years. I did not focus on touching the teeth. I only made sure that my tongue touched the palate. I DID experience results from these practices. Therefore I am NOT saying that it is ineffective if you don't touch the teeth. I found that this was an instruction of my new teacher which I took on board. I initially disregarded it as I rationalized that it would never be comfortable give my oral issues and habits. I decided at one point to see if I could do it and become comfortable with it. I did persist with it and I became accustomed to it and it became "natural" to me. Also during this time I went from practice of sitting meditation in a chair in the classical healing tao throne position. This position was very natural to me as I had done it for years (maybe decades). My new teacher was a proponent of full lotus sitting practice and I was initially resistant to that. Over a period of several months I became accustomed to and relaxed sitting in half lotus.

 

So what is natural and what is learned technique? What is beneficial? What is effective? What is Optimal? to me touching the teeth is optimal.

 

 

OK, so I think we agree relaxation is important, but in my opinion if you have no physical issues preventing it I believe teeth touching when tongue touching palate is optimal. I am definitely not saying it is necessary. In fact I believe that energy can and will flow in the orbit without touching the tongue to the palate, but it does help.

 

Thanks for listening to this overlong discussion of a very minor technique issue.

 

ain't it grand that we can have civil discourse? thanks all

 

Craig

[VCraigP]

The jaw should be relaxed if possible. AGREE

 

Keeping the teeth together is contrary to relaxation. DISAGREE. depends on the invidual.

 

It's a bad habit.

 

Grinding your teeth is a bad habit. chewing tobacco is a bad habit. Keeping your teeth touching is a method which is not necessarily tension inducing. Your experience may vary.

 

Beware of over generalizations. Or not, as you see fit.

Craig

[VCraigP]

Don't get me wrong, I hope I'm just wrong. I feel a strong connection with the Yin World in him.

 

 

I don't think I got you wrong.

 

you said "I don't like his vibe"

and

"I feel a strong connection with the Yin World in him".

 

Your statements seem very clear to me. You have never met him nor had any exposure to him other than his website and your intuition and you have received somehow a negative impression. It is your prerogative to voice your opinion.

 

BTW - what does "I feel a strong connection with the Yin World in him" even mean?

would you care to expand on or support this statment?

 

You will understand when I say I couldn't possibly be more in disagreement with you, and I have spent a great deal of time studying with him (5 full weeks in 2008 alone).

 

With respect

 

Craig

[immortal_sister]

Thanks for listening to this overlong discussion of a very minor technique issue.

 

ain't it grand that we can have civil discourse? thanks all

 

Craig

 

it is indeed grand! i asked this questions hoping for a good discussion and i got it! thank you everyone. i am going to experiment with both and see what is comfortable / more potent.

 

i love when this forum actually gets used for what it was intended for, and not for drama

[宁]

@onelove

Thanks! Sounds good, as I said, the syllabus looks very appealing...

 

@Craig

Thanks!

It's because you are an honest guy that I've asked you these questions, and offered my uninformed opinion. I hope you understand I've got nothing on him. Maybe this empathy thing is the only reason.

I don't know how to properly explain what I understand in "a strong connection with the Yin World".

 

Thanks for the civilty!

 

L1