help critique Daniel Ingram's "hardcore dharma book"

[beoman]

You might want to check out Daniel Ingram's mentor, my friend Kenneth Folk at www.kennethfolk.com. I highly recommend Kenneth's 3 Speed Transmission practice metaphor.

heh awesome. i can see where Daniel gets some of his ideas from. I try to do this now but without categorizing the thought or feelings, I just notice "ah that was a feeling" or "ah that was a sound" or "ah that is a thought". but maybe I should categorize them.

 

What's the point of 2nd gear and 3rd gear if 1st gear is enough to become an Arahat?

[Gerard]

Ya that's my issue when I look at the proscribing-how-to-live-your-life side of Buddhism. You get into religious territory. And things not easy for regular people to verify, like "is it ok to eat a tree".

 

So what do trees say usually? I'm curious. Would they take a few hours to decide that Frodo is, indeed, a hobbit? =P.

 

Indeed, Buddhism has been heavily influenced by religion to the point that has become a shadow of its former self. Way too much dogma and what you can and can't do. If you want to find a true Buddhist go and find them in the Kunlun region meditating in caves or in Emei Shan walking the circle in a remote hermitage.

 

In my case I was lucky to find a good teacher when the first thing he asked me was to throw all the sutras away and any books written on the subject. He just told me to walk and sit in equal parts, follow my breath and observe any changes my mind would experience. And that's it.

 

I commune with trees energetically; they open me up to the Earth itself and sometimes other astral planes that coexist in Gaia.

Edited August 13, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[AugustLeo]

.

[beoman]

Arahatship is just the beginning. That's the point. If you're interested or have more questions, contact Kenneth.

 

Ah alright. I thought stream entry was just the beginning. I guess opinions vary here. I think it'd serve me best to delay questions on that front until I get at least stream entry.

[xabir2005]

heh awesome. i can see where Daniel gets some of his ideas from. I try to do this now but without categorizing the thought or feelings, I just notice "ah that was a feeling" or "ah that was a sound" or "ah that is a thought". but maybe I should categorize them.

 

What's the point of 2nd gear and 3rd gear if 1st gear is enough to become an Arahat?

 

I must say that I have great respect for Kenneth and his works, and actually think that his three gears are very well categorized.

 

For example, First gear is a separate practice on its own and does not lead to Second gear self-realization (I AM). Third gear can also be reached without going through first gear (think: Dzogchen, Zen, etc).

 

Second and third gear are what Thusness and I calls "direct path". First gear, we call "gradual path". Kenneth calls "developmental path".

 

The only part where we don't agree is Kenneth's claim that Arhats do not realize non-duality of subject and object (3rd gear). In our understanding, the path (gear) in which they undertake is different, yet at the end the realizations and results are the same. However, the Arhat following classic Vipassana path do not undergo 2nd gear/I AM phase - that belongs to Advaita or Zen practice. Personally, I focus a lot on the 2nd gear, more so than 1st gear. (more info on my e-book/journal on my self-realization and 2nd gear practice - http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63 ) You just have to choose a path, if Daniel's work resonates, then I suggest to focus on that, it will also eventually lead to insights of non-duality and anatta.

 

As Thusness wrote before:

 

“Hi Gary,

 

It appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite new here so I may be wrong.

 

My take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the ‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.

 

On the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of non-dual awareness.

 

Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.

 

Awakening to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the ‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of immediacy'”

And

“Hi Gozen,

 

I fully agree with what you said. It is just a casual sharing with Gary as he seems to be experiencing some aspects of the direct path.

 

To me both gradual and direct path will eventually lead us to the same destination. It is rather the degree of understanding we have on a particular teaching. If we practice wholeheartedly, whatever traditions will lead us to the same goal.

 

Frankly without re-looking at the basic teachings of Buddhism about the dharma seals and dependent origination, I will be leaving traces in the Absolute. In vipassana, there is the ‘bare attention’ and there is the mindful reminding of impermanence, no self and suffering of the transience. It is a very balance and safe approach.

 

Like in Zen tradition, different koans were meant for different purposes. The experience derived from the koan “before birth who are you?” is not the same as the Hakuin’s koan of “what is the sound of one hand clapping?” The five categories of koan in Zen ranges from hosshin that give practitioner the first glimpse of ultimate reality to five-ranks that aims to awaken practitioner the spontaneous unity of relative and absolute are meant to prevent leaving traces. (You should be more familiar than me ) My point is when we simply see the Absolute and neglect the relative, that ‘Absolute’ becomes dead and very quickly another ‘dead Absolute construct’ is being created. In whatever case, we can only have a sincere mind, practice diligently and let the mind figure the rest out.

 

The mind does not know how to liberate itself.

By going beyond its own limits it experiences unwinding.

From deep confusion it drops knowing.

From intense suffering comes releasing.

From complete exhaustion comes resting.

All these go in cycle perpetually repeating,

Till one realizes everything is indeed already liberated,

As spontaneous happening from before beginning.”

Edited August 13, 2010 by xabir2005

[lino]

Ah alright. I thought stream entry was just the beginning. I guess opinions vary here. I think it'd serve me best to delay questions on that front until I get at least stream entry.

 

Stream entry isn't what people think it is.

 

It is a physical adaptation that helps keep the brain and

spine, at the very least, cool in very hot weather.

 

Stream entry goes all the way into the middle of the head.

The pineal gland is a directional compass. It's strange that

the kidney point on the foot also connects to it indirectly and has a

ship's steering wheel on it in Buddhist symbology.

 

BTW...the truth ending age has lasted for over 17 million years.

There is only one fully stabilized Buddha (physically) in the

system.

 

BTW...try asking for the 84,000 teachings from a local

Buddhist center.

Edited August 13, 2010 by lino

[nac]

However, doing nothing in this case is also an action

This is a gateway into Mahayana, an indication that the foundational vehicle of Buddhism may be incomplete in some respects. The fact is, no human being has the unlimited wisdom required to save everyone all the time without causing harm to anybody. It's a worthy goal, to be sure, but until we get there, we must work with what we've actually got.

 

For example, we know that it's impossible to kill without causing suffering and dulling awareness in the world, therefore killing is necessarily bad karma. OTOH, Bodhisattvas recognize that acting in ways which always create good karma is not the point of spiritual practice. We're just as responsible for inaction as any other act.

Edited August 13, 2010 by nac

[xabir2005]

Stream entry isn't what people think it is.

 

It is a physical adaptation that helps keep the brain and

spine, at the very least, cool in very hot weather.

 

Stream entry goes all the way into the middle of the head.

The pineal gland is a directional compass. It's strange that

the kidney point on the foot also connects to it indirectly and has a

ship's steering wheel on it in Buddhist symbology.

 

BTW...the truth ending age has lasted for over 17 million years.

There is only one fully stabilized Buddha (physically) in the

system.

 

BTW...try asking for the 84,000 teachings from a local

Buddhist center.

Your post is funny

 

To abbot: "Give me the 84,000 teachings. NAO."

[lino]

Your post is funny

 

To abbot: "Give me the 84,000 teachings. NAO."

 

Can't be too hard. It can be on CD-Rom, dvd-rom,

or file share.

 

[rookie]

So, did anyone else get that this Ingram guy has a huge ego?

The beginning of the book is so full of "I" that it was a real turn off.

He also makes it sound mechanical, do this to get that.

A story like that is just what the ego needs LOL

[adept]

Indeed, Buddhism has been heavily influenced by religion to the point that has become a shadow of its former self. Way too much dogma and what you can and can't do. If you want to find a true Buddhist go and find them in the Kunlun region meditating in caves or in Emei Shan walking the circle in a remote hermitage.

 

In my case I was lucky to find a good teacher when the first thing he asked me was to throw all the sutras away and any books written on the subject. He just told me to walk and sit in equal parts, follow my breath and observe any changes my mind would experience. And that's it.

 

I commune with trees energetically; they open me up to the Earth itself and sometimes other astral planes that coexist in Gaia.

 

Excellent post !

We must talk more on this.

I'll PM you.

[beoman]

So, did anyone else get that this Ingram guy has a huge ego?

The beginning of the book is so full of "I" that it was a real turn off.

He also makes it sound mechanical, do this to get that.

A story like that is just what the ego needs LOL

heh yes I definitely got that feeling. it made the book quite entertaining to read.

 

he definitely makes it sound mechanical. But looking at Buddhist texts, the Buddha also made it sound mechanical, just in more flowery language. It's like "the monk must be mindful, notice the breath. once the monk has realized this and that, then this will happen. once he has done this, that will happen," etc. It's just harder for us to understand cause it was spoken 2500 years ago and translated a few times in the process.

[nac]

durkhrod chogori: We call ourselves Buddhists because the Buddha's teachings are valid in our judgment, not the other way around.

 

PS. TBH, I never liked the book which this thread is about. I don't see what the big deal is, really.

[beoman]

PS. TBH, I never liked the book which this thread is about. I don't see what the big deal is, really.

I think it's just a very direct description of a lot of things that are usually not described in such clear terms. At least that's what it was for me.

[lino]

So, did anyone else get that this Ingram guy has a huge ego?

The beginning of the book is so full of "I" that it was a real turn off.

He also makes it sound mechanical, do this to get that.

A story like that is just what the ego needs LOL

 

Fuck that shit. I would be "I"ing so much

that it wouldn't be funny. I like having an

individual identity.

[beoman]

Fuck that shit. I would be "I"ing so much

that it wouldn't be funny. I like having an

individual identity.

indeed! the Buddha was also a bit of an egoist after first becoming enlightened, as he said to Upaka:

 

"I am one who has overcome all, who knows all, I am detached from all things; having abandonded everything, obtained emancipation, by the destruction of desire. Having by myself gained knowledge, whom should I call master?"

 

"I have no teacher, One like me is not, in the world of men and gods, none is my counterpart

 

"I, indeed am the Arahat in the world, the teacher with no peer, the sole Buddha, supreme, ENLIGHTENED, all passions extinguished, I have gained Peace."

 

"Those are the Conquerors who, like me, have reached the extinction of cankers. I have vanquished all thoughts, ideas, notions of evil. For that reason, Upaka, I am a Jina a Conqueror, a victorious One."

[xabir2005]

indeed! the Buddha was also a bit of an egoist after first becoming enlightened, as he said to Upaka:

 

"I am one who has overcome all, who knows all, I am detached from all things; having abandonded everything, obtained emancipation, by the destruction of desire. Having by myself gained knowledge, whom should I call master?"

 

"I have no teacher, One like me is not, in the world of men and gods, none is my counterpart

 

"I, indeed am the Arahat in the world, the teacher with no peer, the sole Buddha, supreme, ENLIGHTENED, all passions extinguished, I have gained Peace."

 

"Those are the Conquerors who, like me, have reached the extinction of cankers. I have vanquished all thoughts, ideas, notions of evil. For that reason, Upaka, I am a Jina a Conqueror, a victorious One."

Good quotes. Except he's not saying this to boast his ego... he is simply stating facts as they are. And facts are the only thing that is helpful. I'd rather hear facts rather than false humility.

 

Here's another quote:

 

[upaka said] ‘Friend, your faculties are clear, the color of your

skin is pure and bright. Under whom have you gone forth,

friend? Who is your teacher? Whose Dhamma do you

profess?’

I [The Buddha] replied to the Ajivaka Upaka in the stanzas:

‘I am one who has transcended all, a knower of all,

Unsullied among all things, renouncing all,

By craving’s ceasing freed. Having known this all

For myself, to whom should I point as teacher?

I have no teacher, and one like me

Exists nowhere in all the world

With all its gods, because I have

No person for my counterpart.

I am the Accomplished One in the world

I am the Teacher Supreme.

I alone am a Fully Enlightened One

Whose fires are quenched and extinguished.

I go now to the city of Kasi

To set in motion the Wheel of Dhamma.

In a world that has become blind

I go to beat the drum of the Deathless.’

[upaka replied] ‘By your claims friend, you ought to be the

Universal Victor.’

‘The victors are those like me

Who have won to destruction of taints.

I have vanquished all evil states,

Therefore, Upaka, I am a victor.’

Edited August 13, 2010 by xabir2005

[beoman]

[forestofclarity]

I think it is strange to say something like "true Buddhist", because it implies that there is a self, that it is a Buddhist self, and that it comes in true and false variations. There is no peg upon which to hang "true Buddhist" on.

 

There is no one size fits all. I used to share a similar viewpoint, but like all viewpoints, I found it is limited. Different people have different knots in different places.

 

 

Indeed, Buddhism has been heavily influenced by religion to the point that has become a shadow of its former self. Way too much dogma and what you can and can't do. If you want to find a true Buddhist go and find them in the Kunlun region meditating in caves or in Emei Shan walking the circle in a remote hermitage.

 

In my case I was lucky to find a good teacher when the first thing he asked me was to throw all the sutras away and any books written on the subject. He just told me to walk and sit in equal parts, follow my breath and observe any changes my mind would experience. And that's it.

[rookie]

Fuck that shit. I would be "I"ing so much

that it wouldn't be funny. I like having an

individual identity.

 

Sounds like you are doing just fine on that LOL

Consider this. Reality is what it is. Your egos version of it is just a self sustaining drama or story.

There are plenty of signs for anyone that might pay attention that will poke holes in your little world

[rookie]

heh yes I definitely got that feeling. it made the book quite entertaining to read.

 

he definitely makes it sound mechanical. But looking at Buddhist texts, the Buddha also made it sound mechanical, just in more flowery language. It's like "the monk must be mindful, notice the breath. once the monk has realized this and that, then this will happen. once he has done this, that will happen," etc. It's just harder for us to understand cause it was spoken 2500 years ago and translated a few times in the process.

 

I think the key here is "once this is realized that will happen" does not give a formula. Sounds more like an effect after the fact. It is not mechanical. Nothing in conciousness is really like that. Each persons realization is unique.

[rookie]

indeed! the Buddha was also a bit of an egoist after first becoming enlightened

 

This is a contradiction and missconception.

Maybe you should say what your definition of enlightenment is.

[xabir2005]

I think the key here is "once this is realized that will happen" does not give a formula. Sounds more like an effect after the fact. It is not mechanical. Nothing in conciousness is really like that. Each persons realization is unique.

No not really. The universal characteristics of reality/each sensate experience: impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, non-self, are universal.

 

Since these are universal, the realizations of everyone doing the same practice will definitely be universal.

[lino]

Sounds like you are doing just fine on that LOL

Consider this. Reality is what it is. Your egos version of it is just a self sustaining drama or story.

There are plenty of signs for anyone that might pay attention that will poke holes in your little world

 

 

[xabir2005]

Ya I see your point. it is easy to see the image of someone who just underwent something awesome, though, being swept away by the elation =P. but I realize that's not the case. although, how could he know that he alone was the fully enlightened one? seems like there could have been someone in a far away country just like him that he'd have no way of knowing about. you sure there isn't a bit of pomposity in that sentence?

Remember I said one of the difference between a Buddha and an Arhant is that a Buddha is omniscient