Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

[Apech]

Thanks again Marbles for this. Just a warning - there's stuff about what sounds like no-self in there ... watch out you might turn Buddhist if you carry on this way ....

 

[Marblehead]

Thanks again Marbles for this. Just a warning - there's stuff about what sounds like no-self in there ... watch out you might turn Buddhist if you carry on this way ....

 

 

Hehehe. Yep. I was very well aware of that. But I must present the writings as they have been presented to me. For me to remove or change anything would be nothing less than a lie.

 

But remember too that in Taoism when the Sages talk about no-self they are talking about the experience had while in the state of 'wu', that is, in deep meditation. When we leave the meditative state we return to the Self, 'yo', the Manifest reality.

 

However, just to assure you, there is very little chance that I will turn Buddhist. Hehehe. Something like a snowballs chances in hell.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hehehe. Yep. I was very well aware of that. But I must present the writings as they have been presented to me. For me to remove or change anything would be nothing less than a lie.

 

But remember too that in Taoism when the Sages talk about no-self they are talking about the experience had while in the state of 'wu', that is, in deep meditation. When we leave the meditative state we return to the Self, 'yo', the Manifest reality.

 

However, just to assure you, there is very little chance that I will turn Buddhist. Hehehe. Something like a snowballs chances in hell.

 

Peace & Love!

 

"Attain to utmost Emptiness..." from T.T.C. Chapter 16, - Ut-oh

 

I don't want to turn into a vehicle either but I don't mind one as a means to an end.

 

(thus if I crash my vehicle into somebody elses the cops get involved and my trip is delayed.

.

Edited August 15, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

"Attain to utmost Emptiness..." from T.T.C. Chapter 16, - Ut-oh

 

I don't want to turn into a vehicle either but I don't mind one as a means to an end.

 

(thus if I crash my vehicle into somebody elses the cops get involved and my trip is delayed.

.

 

 

Wow! What potential for going off topic with that post! But I will resist. Drive your vehicle safely.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Wow! What potential for going off topic with that post! But I will resist. Drive your vehicle safely.

 

Peace & Love!

 

"Off topic"... MH, are you all that sure of topics around here? I'm not.

 

Thus staying on topics around here often includes constant drifting and morphing to various random, wild, hairy, cool, calm, uncollected, mean, serene, lean, fat, overdone, bloated, clean, crisp, sharp, newbie, deeply profound, lusty, black magic motivated, white purity, empty sky, mud, middle-of-the-road, depressed, normal, blues, cats, bliss, believers, non-believers, agnostics, troubles at home, bad food, sexual manipulations, intellectual soaring, science, mystery, politically correct nuances, bold and or brash truisms and whatever else somebody happens to be into that comes along; besides or under the cover of topics. (imo)

 

Om

[Marblehead]

"Off topic"... MH, are you all that sure of topics around here? I'm not.

 

Thus staying on topics around here often includes constant drifting and morphing to various random, wild, hairy, cool, calm, uncollected, mean, serene, lean, fat, overdone, bloated, clean, crisp, sharp, newbie, deeply profound, lusty, black magic motivated, white purity, empty sky, mud, middle-of-the-road, depressed, normal, blues, cats, bliss, believers, non-believers, agnostics, troubles at home, bad food, sexual manipulations, intellectual soaring, science, mystery, politically correct nuances, bold and or brash truisms and whatever else somebody happens to be into that comes along; besides or under the cover of topics. (imo)

 

Om

 

Hehehe. What a bunch of descriptors! Yeah, I suppose we are all that and more.

 

Okay, off we go.

 

"Attain to utmost Emptiness..."

 

Yes, I agree. However, be careful with this. It does not mean to be apathetic or to become nihilistic. I believe it speaks more to having fixed opinions and attaching oneself to externals. If we have inner emptiness there is room for everything, room to consider others' opinions, and room for total flexibility so that we can, without effort, adjust to any changes in our external environment.

 

I don't want to turn into a vehicle either but I don't mind one as a means to an end.

 

Agree. I don't want to be a reflection of Taoist Philosophy. But I do want to use the philosophy as a vehicle for my journey through life. Therefore we must take good care of our vehicle if we expect it to serve us well along our journey. We don't want to have to stop every hundred mile in order to fix our vehicle - if we maintain it well (preventive maintenance) it won't break down on us. Yes, we need to keep our life philosophy clean and in good maintenance. If it doesn't serve us well we need to trade it in for a new one.

 

Peace & Love!

[Maddie]

I'm pretty familiar with several Taoist practices but less familiar with the Taoist philosophical outlook on certain issues. Since philosophically I'm more familiar with the Buddhist approach (though less with their practices lol) I'm wondering what Taoism's views are on a few topics.

 

1. Karma and Rebirth.

 

2. Enlightenment

 

3. Meditation

 

4. The monastic order

 

5. Ethics

 

6. Other realms of existence

 

I would appreciate anyone who has a firm grasp on Taoist philosophical understanding to elaborate on these please.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm pretty familiar with several Taoist practices but less familiar with the Taoist philosophical outlook on certain issues. Since philosophically I'm more familiar with the Buddhist approach (though less with their practices lol) I'm wondering what Taoism's views are on a few topics.

 

1. Karma and Rebirth.

 

2. Enlightenment

 

3. Meditation

 

4. The monastic order

 

5. Ethics

 

6. Other realms of existence

 

I would appreciate anyone who has a firm grasp on Taoist philosophical understanding to elaborate on these please.

 

Tough question, since so-called "philosophical Taoism" doesn't concern itself much with the majority of these. It's more monastic and mystical Daoism would.

 

On the other hand.. The Chuang Tzu [Jing] and the Dao De Jing are as mystical as they are philosophical from a certain perspective.

 

The texts that look at these things would be associated with the monastic and, what imo would best be called, the "mystical nomadic traditions."

 

 

The Daoist perspective of re-incarnation would be explained as energetic, more than meritorious moral continuation, being an energetic source of reincarnation more than mind existence.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Tough question,

Indeed. But you did well with your response.

 

There are a lot of commonalities between Taoism and Buddhism just as there is between Judaism and Christianity but there are likewise significant differences between them as well.

 

Personally I much prefer 'cause and effect' over 'Karma' because there are so many variations of the concept of Karma depending on what Buddhist school one is looking at.

 

Rebirth is another one. In Taoism it is not the individual that gets recycled but rather just the energy. (Chuang Tzu would ask me if I was sure about that. Hehehe.)

 

Enlightenment is pretty much the same in both philosophies, the becoming aware of the truth of reality.

 

I can't honestly say that Lao Tzu spoke about meditation but Chuang Tzu certainly did and it can fairly be compared with most Buddhist concerns about meditation.

 

Philosophical Taoism does not have a monastic order. That came with the establishment of a religion of Taoism.

 

Ethics would be very similar between the two. Do no unnecessary harm. (And do nothing if you can get away with it.)

 

I can't say that Lao Tzu spoke of other realms of existence. Chuang Tzu did. He even spoke of being a butterfly.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I would add that the Dao De Jing definitely talks about meditation, finding stillness, returning to the root from which all things spring, and meditation in action being to stay connected to the One as an infant naturally does . Holding to simplicity is also a meditation in action, imho...

[baiqi]

1. Karma and Rebirth: in philosophical taoism, nothing is said about rebirth (as far as I can remember), in religious taoism, lots of ideas taken from Buddhism.

There are some ideas close to karma in the DDJ, such as " the violent man will meet a violent death" or "Heaven does not make a difference, it always help the virtuous man", but it might differ a bit from the Hindu/Buddhist concept.

 

2. Enlightenment:. I do believe some Taoists have this idea of a complete understanding, but I am not sure it is the same as the Buddhists. Here I make no difference between religious and philosophical taoism.

 

3. Meditation: yes, there is meditation in Taoism.

 

4. The monastic order: the last school of religious Taoism, called Quanzhen, is a monastic order. In earlier Taoism, it did not exist, but there were hermits, people leaving society, which is not so different from being a monk.

 

5. Ethics: in religious Taoism, some ideas come from Buddhism and Confucius. The philosophical Taoist ethic does exist as well, but is a bit harder to understand: real ethic does not come external morality, a set of rules, but rather from the understanding of the Tao.

 

6. Other realms of existence: lots of them in religious Taoism. Quite a few in taoist philosophy as well, especially if you consider the many points of view of existance. Some texts by Zhuangzi talk about it, I believe.

Edited May 4, 2013 by baiqi

[ChiDragon]

I'm pretty familiar with several Taoist practices but less familiar with the Taoist philosophical outlook on certain issues. Since philosophically I'm more familiar with the Buddhist approach (though less with their practices lol) I'm wondering what Taoism's views are on a few topics.

 

1. Karma and Rebirth.

No such notion in Taoism,

 

2. Enlightenment

No such notion in Taoism.

 

3. Meditation

Yes, the correct name is Chi Kung or Qi Gong.

 

4. The monastic order

Yes, Taoist practice and secluded in the shrines(道觀).

 

5. Ethics

Not was as emphasized as like the Confucians.

 

6. Other realms of existence

Mainly for longevity to become an immortal.

 

I would appreciate anyone who has a firm grasp on Taoist philosophical understanding to elaborate on these please.

Edited May 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

1. Karma and Rebirth: in philosophical taoism, nothing is said about rebirth (as far as I can remember), in religious taoism, lots of ideas taken from Buddhism.

There are some ideas close to karma in the DDJ, such as " the violent man will meet a violent death" or "Heaven does not make a difference, it always help the virtuous man", but it might differ a bit from the Hindu/Buddhist concept.

 

2. Enlightenment:. I do believe some Taoists have this idea of a complete understanding, but I am not sure it is the same as the Buddhists. Here I make no difference between religious and philosophical taoism.

 

3. Meditation: yes, there is meditation in Taoism.

 

4. The monastic order: the last school of religious Taoism, called Quanzhen, is a monastic order. In earlier Taoism, it did not exist, but there were hermits, people leaving society, which is not so different from being a monk.

 

5. Ethics: in religious Taoism, some ideas come from Buddhism and Confucius. The philosophical Taoist ethic does exist as well, but is a bit harder to understand: real ethic does not come external morality, a set of rules, but rather from the understanding of the Tao.

 

6. Other realms of existence: lots of them in religious Taoism. Quite a few in taoist philosophy as well, especially if you consider the many points of view of existance. Some texts by Zhuangzi talk about it, I believe.

Thanks for the answers.

 

I guess I should specify my question about meditation. I already realized that Taoism has meditation, but what I'm wanting to know is what are the main categories and what are their ultimate purposes. For example in Buddhism you have Samantha and Vipassana as far as categories go. The goal of Samantha is to deepen your concentration, and the goal of Vipassana is to have insight into the workings of your mind, and the ultimate goal of both is to help you to reach enlightenment.

 

So what about Taoist meditation? or qigong meditation which ever way you want to look at / label it.

[Marblehead]

So what about Taoist meditation?

Chuang Tzu spoke mostly of 'empty-minded meditation'. The only goal is to clear one's mind of all thoughts in order to see reality as our senses allow without the trash from past teachings and experiences.

 

And this thought brought the thought:

 

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

[Maddie]

Chuang Tzu spoke mostly of 'empty-minded meditation'. The only goal is to clear one's mind of all thoughts in order to see reality as our senses allow without the trash from past teachings and experiences.

 

And this thought brought the thought:

 

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

care to elaborate that? lol

[Marblehead]

care to elaborate that? lol

Which one? Empty-minded meditation or the mountain?

[Maddie]

Which one? Empty-minded meditation or the mountain?

well the only thing I saw you talk about was the mountain sentence so yea that for sure. But I'd love to hear about empty mind as well, and any thing else too.

[Marblehead]

Okay. I will do this in two parts so that there is logic behind what I say and so that others might add to or subtract from what I say. And logically first would be to speak to empty minded meditation.

 

My understanding: this form of meditation is used to gain inner peace. There is a process that Chuang Tzu defines somewhere (I will look it up for you if you think it might help) that will lead one to a condition where, in ones mind, nothing is static, where there are not even any 'things' outside of one's mind, where there is not even the individual who realizes this, where the mind does not even exist so that there are no longer any thoughts, where All is One.

 

The concept of "All is One" is beautiful in that if I am One with All then there is nothing that is not "I". With this understanding there is no longer "this and that", "right or wrong", or any of the other dualities we experience in the physical world. At this point everything is perfect - we are at peace witl All.

[Marblehead]

The idea of the mountain is actually more Buddhist than it is Taoist but it does fit very well with Taoist philosophy as well. It has to do with the concept of enlightenment.

 

When we are living in the physical world we acknowledge the existence of the mountain. The mountain is separate from us. When we attain enlightenment we realize that we are the mountain and the mountain is us. Basically, the "other" does not exist separately but it is a part of the totality. After we come out of our meditative state the mountain is still there and if it is in our path we must either go over the mountain or go around it. But now we can view it as part of our path and not an obstacle in our path.

 

This goes well with the Buddhist concept: Chop wood, carry water; attain enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. Before enlightenment the chopping of the wood and the carying of the water was an undesirable task that was not part of the concept of "non-doing" but after enlightenment the tasks are a part of the normal processes of living.

[sufidao]

May someone explain it clearly for me, what is this "philosophical Taoism". Is it something newly invented?

[Marblehead]

May someone explain it clearly for me, what is this "philosophical Taoism". Is it something newly invented?

Hi Sufidao,

 

I am an Atheist therefore I must discriminate between the root philosophy of Taoism and of the pre-Lao Tzu Shamanism and the post-Chuang Tzu Religion.

 

No, it is nothing new. It has existed for thousands of years. There are many here who can explain the evolution of Taoism much better than I can so I will leave that alone.

 

It is my understanding that the Chinese, in the most part, do not discriminate between the different aspects of Taoism. It is we of the West that do that.

 

Almost any translation into English of the Tao Te Ching will be based on the philosophical aspect of Taoism only and even in the translator's introduction and notes rarely will we see anything mentioned of the pre-Lao Tzu Taoism.

[ChiDragon]

May someone explain it clearly for me, what is this "philosophical Taoism". Is it something newly invented?

 

Nowadays, for the Chinese scholars, the Philosophical Taoism is straightly studying the principles of Tao, the pure logical reasoning of the principles in the Tao Te Ching. Another words, it is the study of Lao Tze's philosophy in a non-religious manner.

[ChiDragon]

Okay. I will do this in two parts so that there is logic behind what I say and so that others might add to or subtract from what I say. And logically first would be to speak to empty minded meditation.

 

My understanding: this form of meditation is used to gain inner peace. There is a process that Chuang Tzu defines somewhere (I will look it up for you if you think it might help) that will lead one to a condition where, in ones mind, nothing is static, where there are not even any 'things' outside of one's mind, where there is not even the individual who realizes this, where the mind does not even exist so that there are no longer any thoughts, where All is One.

 

The concept of "All is One" is beautiful in that if I am One with All then there is nothing that is not "I". With this understanding there is no longer "this and that", "right or wrong", or any of the other dualities we experience in the physical world. At this point everything is perfect - we are at peace witl All.

 

Welcome back......MH

hehehehe........I would like to think the mind does not even exist so that there are no longer any thoughts which I'm not even part of One. Just no thoughts in result as no One neither. Nothing was there but emptiness; and I called that a State of Serenity.

[Marblehead]

 

State of Serenity.

It has not been all that many years that I have used that word, serenity. I never really fully understood its meaning until I actually experienced it. (No, I don't keep it all the time. Hehehe.)