Immortals vs. Bodhisattvas (or arahats)?

[Kali Yuga]

What is the difference between the Taoist Immortals and the Buddhist concepts of a Bodhisattva or Arahat?

 

Whats is the difference between the framework between the the two concepts? Is it that Taoism and Buddhism are not truly compatible (even though both give quite heavy emphasis on mysticism and being "present")?

 

Also, where Buddhism says one should transcend does not happen too much in Taoism to some extent from what I can see. I also find the concept of the Eight Immortals to be very interesting, as they are all not "perfect" or exactly "clean" but all have their own quirks and particularities that I am sure would be quite the antithesis of what Buddhism would aspire to.. hence the humorous and amusing part.

 

How really different is one "achieved" being from another? Should one unite with reality or transcend? Discard it or be in the moment? Is it all "nothing" is it the "all"?

 

Please discuss and have fun. But please if you post don't bash one or the other if you happen to prefer one over the other. Keep it clean and no personal attacking.

[Li Jiong]

They belong to different worlds, both are exellent though.

[lino]

The first Arhat/full Buddha is Iblis. He is still alive in the

same physical body. All of those millions of years do mean

something. He disposed of somebody that was trying to invade

my domicile very easily (with one finger).

[Capital]

Very odd... I put the name Iblis in google and all I came upon was that Iblis was the name of the Islamic devil. Even when I type in 'Iblis Arhat' I get nothing but sites linking to satan.

[xabir2005]

Very odd... I put the name Iblis in google and all I came upon was that Iblis was the name of the Islamic devil. Even when I type in 'Iblis Arhat' I get nothing but sites linking to satan.

All of lino's posts are equally odd

[xabir2005]

Arhant is not about immortality, but ending suffering, ignorance, and the cycle of birth and death.

 

Arahant:

 

In the early scriptures and in modern Theravada Buddhism, it means anyone who has reached the total Awakening and attained Nibbana, including the Buddha. An arahant is a person who has destroyed greed, hatred, and delusion - the unwholesome roots which underlie all fetters - who upon decease will not be reborn in any world, having wholly cut off all fetters that bind a person to the samsara. In the Pali Canon, the word is sometimes used as a synonym for tathagata.[1]

 

Immortal:

 

Xian (Chinese: 仙/仚/僊; pinyin: xiān; Wade-Giles: hsien) is a Chinese word for an enlightened person, translatable in English as:

 

* "spiritually immortal; transcendent; super-human; celestial being" (in Daoist/Taoist philosophy and cosmology)

* "physically immortal; immortal person; immortalist; saint" (in Daoist religion and pantheon)

* "alchemist; one who seeks the elixir of life; one who practices longevity techniques" or by extension "(alchemical, dietary, qigong) methods for attaining immortality" (in Chinese alchemy)

* "wizard; magician; shaman" (in Chinese mythology)

* "genie; elf, fairy; nymph" (in popular Chinese literature, 仙境 xian jing is "fairyland", Faerie)

* "sage living high in the mountains; mountain-man; hermit; recluse" (folk etymology for the character 仙)

* "immortal (talent); accomplished person; celestial (beauty); marvelous; extraordinary" (metaphorical modifier)

Edited August 17, 2010 by xabir2005

[Gaelicrock]

Well, many people consider "Fight Club" to be a movie steeped in Taoist principles.

 

The Narrator takes classes on Buddhist meditation and "escaping" from this plane of existence. In the movie, Tyler spills an acidic chemical on the Narrator's hand. In response, the Narrator attempts to retreat into his "spirit cave" and find his "power animal." Tyler is very distraught by this and tells him, "Don't deal with this like those dead people do! THIS is your burning hand. THIS is your reality."

 

Buddhism seems to be about escaping the world around us, which is full of suffering and death.

 

Taoism is about embracing the natural world, breaking all the fetters of reality, and becoming one with the world around us.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Buddhism seems to be about escaping the world around us, which is full of suffering and death.

 

Taoism is about embracing the natural world, breaking all the fetters of reality, and becoming one with the world around us.

 

That would be wrongly understood Buddhism. This is not what the Buddha taught. He taught to see through the appearance of things, to escape ignorance, not the world. Why did he say that Samsara is Nirvana then? Nirvana is not escape, except escape from ignorance, but it's really just right understanding of the world and thus true insight into the nature of things. There really is no escape, there is only climbing the latter of awareness of the nature of things.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Birch]

"see through the appearance of things,"

 

THIS!

 

(I thought I'd take it back from Hundun who had borrowed it from ME )

 

soo desu ne

[Gaelicrock]

That would be wrongly understood Buddhism. This is not what the Buddha taught. He taught to see through the appearance of things, to escape ignorance, not the world. Why did he say that Samsara is Nirvana then? Nirvana is not escape, except escape from ignorance, but it's really just right understanding of the world and thus true insight into the nature of things. There really is no escape, there is only climbing the latter of awareness of the nature of things.

 

Ah ok! That sounds very nice! While we are at it, how was my interpretation of Taoism?

[anatman]

from what little i know(and this will become apperant)the bodhisattva is an ideal,but the actual existence of them is a myth(imo).i would suspect that the immortals are a different"story"with taoism.again an ideal,but still a myth.

[Vajrahridaya]

from what little i know(and this will become apperant)the bodhisattva is an ideal,but the actual existence of them is a myth(imo).i would suspect that the immortals are a different"story"with taoism.again an ideal,but still a myth.

 

Naaaaah! They both exist, just beyond the 5 sense limitations though. Yeah baby!!

[Vajrahridaya]

Ah ok! That sounds very nice! While we are at it, how was my interpretation of Taoism?

 

I liked it... a worthwhile goal for sure! I especially liked, "Breaking the fetters of reality". As in, breaking one's misunderstanding of it, or breaking through it's seemingness into it's actualness.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

"see through the appearance of things,"

 

THIS!

 

(I thought I'd take it back from Hundun who had borrowed it from ME )

 

soo desu ne

 

What's "soo desu ne"?

[xabir2005]

from what little i know(and this will become apperant)the bodhisattva is an ideal,but the actual existence of them is a myth(imo).i would suspect that the immortals are a different"story"with taoism.again an ideal,but still a myth.

There are many living bodhisattvas today.

[innerspace_cadet]

In my opinion, not being afraid of death is the ultimate immortality. I might catch some flak for this, but I think the Taoists strayed from the Tao when they tried to cheat death via internal alchemy to become immortal. The quest for immortality seems to place life over death in priority, when really we should see both as equal. Feel free to critique this post.

[Birch]

What's "soo desu ne"?

 

My Japanese friends used it to indicate a kind of "is that so?/so it is" - MOSTLY to have a conversation pursued. You can Google it. It has a bunch of other applications and attributes. I like it because it's sort of impersonal. I guess to show someone here that I want the conversation to go on (BUT not because I NECESSARILY agree) - well, I'd have to make a noise. A humph maybe? And should my humph be agreeable or not? A "hmm"?

[C T]

My Japanese friends used it to indicate a kind of "is that so?/so it is" - MOSTLY to have a conversation pursued. You can Google it. It has a bunch of other applications and attributes. I like it because it's sort of impersonal. I guess to show someone here that I want the conversation to go on (BUT not because I NECESSARILY agree) - well, I'd have to make a noise. A humph maybe? And should my humph be agreeable or not? A "hmm"?

Your Japanese is pretty good, Ms Kate!

 

"So des' ka ne" can also mean "Aah! I see!". Or "I understand."

 

Usually "Is that so?"/"Oh! Really?" is "So des' ka?" (ka being the questioning principle.)

 

(was coerced into learning beginner's Japanese years ago when i had this Japanese employer who spoke very little English. Though most of my Japanese left with him when he went back to Japan! ) --- humph ---

 

a japanese equivalent for humph? No idea! hehe ....maybe just a polite bow perhaps? Or a nod with a wink?

Edited August 18, 2010 by CowTao

[Kali Yuga]

In my opinion, not being afraid of death is the ultimate immortality. I might catch some flak for this, but I think the Taoists strayed from the Tao when they tried to cheat death via internal alchemy to become immortal. The quest for immortality seems to place life over death in priority, when really we should see both as equal. Feel free to critique this post.

I find this very thought provoking.

 

If I remember correctly is that the daoist belief is that upon death the spirit disintegrates into different components who do not re unite? Very parallel to ancient egyptian and hindu beliefs it seems.. I think it was something like the lines of, "immortality is achieved only when the parts of one's spirit was fully integrated and united with all every other part" or something like that.

 

Someone please correct me if this is erroneous or something, I am new to all this Taoist stuff but i find it intriguing. I dont even remember where i got this. probably here

[C T]

In my opinion, not being afraid of death is the ultimate immortality. I might catch some flak for this, but I think the Taoists strayed from the Tao when they tried to cheat death via internal alchemy to become immortal. The quest for immortality seems to place life over death in priority, when really we should see both as equal. Feel free to critique this post.

I quite agree with this actually. Nicely put. Both equally present, arising together, in varying degrees each. When one gains insight into the Continuum then the Inner meaning of the word Life is already understood to include death. Not two different states, but not one state either... fixation of views not the way to be, of course.

Edited August 18, 2010 by CowTao

[RongzomFan]

Is there any reliable info on taoist immortals?

 

I have been trying to find some for years.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Is there any reliable info on taoist immortals?

 

I have been trying to find some for years.

fiveelementtao has shared his personal experiences with immortals and spirit guides before on the forum. I'd check his posts.

[Lucky7Strikes]

In my opinion, not being afraid of death is the ultimate immortality. I might catch some flak for this, but I think the Taoists strayed from the Tao when they tried to cheat death via internal alchemy to become immortal. The quest for immortality seems to place life over death in priority, when really we should see both as equal. Feel free to critique this post.

The funny thing is, you have to die to become an immortal!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Naaaaah! They both exist, just beyond the 5 sense limitations though. Yeah baby!!

Where does the Body of LIght fit in here? Do they both have the attainment?

[Guest allan]

Is there any reliable info on taoist immortals?

 

I have been trying to find some for years.

 

If you visit my blog at http://atouchofancientszhouyi.blogspot.com and then click on the Quanzhen/Taoism link under Resources, you will find some reliable information on taoist immortals.

 

The link leads you to a Quanzhen website hosted in Hong Kong. The previous website and others in Hong Kong were down for awhile because of malicious virus attacks.