Immortals vs. Bodhisattvas (or arahats)?

[RongzomFan]

If you visit my blog at http://atouchofancientszhouyi.blogspot.com and then click on the Quanzhen/Taoism link under Resources, you will find some reliable information on taoist immortals.

 

The link leads you to a Quanzhen website hosted in Hong Kong. The previous website and others in Hong Kong were down for awhile because of malicious virus attacks.

 

 

I read some of that. What is the METHOD to become a taoist immortal?

[fizix]

Desiring and trying to become immortal will ensure that immortality not be reached.

[RongzomFan]

Desiring and trying to become immortal will ensure that immortality not be reached.

 

 

Can someone give me a real answer?

[SirYuri]

Can someone give me a real answer?

 

yeah, I'm curious too.. What are the ways and means of achieving immortality or maybe not physically ageing and living longer like 500 to 1000 years old just like what we read in some books, that there are people who are able to live very long lives.

Edited August 19, 2010 by SirYuri

[voidisyinyang]

Read the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" translated by Charles Luk --- you can read it free online but I can't give the link as the moderators have banned links to free online reading....

 

O.K. so that book gives a very detailed step by step process for the most advanced levels of Taoist Immortality.

 

Sure the Buddhists will claim -- no that book is not the real deal -- but in fact that book is the real deal -- only it has to be practiced in the proper context. The book on its own is dangerous -- I got to chapter 9 to chapter 11 in practice and at that level the energy was very dangerous. So the book is based on a lineage where an energy master supervises the training.

 

Also the book uses a lot of esoteric terms and to figure out the meaning you have to cross reference the terms with lots of studying. Finally the content of the book deals with lots of intense information which can not really be understood unless practiced and experienced. So I experienced a lot of stuff but since I hadn't really studied the book thoroughly when the experiences happened to me I didn't understand them when they were happening. Only years later by continuing to study the book did I figure out what I had experienced and what difficulties I had encountered and why, etc.

 

Have fun -- "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" translated by Charles Luk -- you can read it online for free or you can order it from the publisher.

[Kali Yuga]

Can someone give me a real answer?

haha where the "like" button? oh wait its not facebook

 

i like that "cut all the zen bullcrap" attitude, this is not the generation to mince words..

[C T]

 

The book on its own is dangerous -- I got to chapter 9 to chapter 11 in practice and at that level the energy was very dangerous. So the book is based on a lineage where an energy master supervises the training.

 

With your level of 'intelligence' yet you found it hard to negotiate your away around this book. You also stipulated that up to a point in the reading, a physical master/guide is needed. Dont you think you are acting a little irresponsibly then by recommending it as the reference workbook for esoterica? I also think the translator/author is even more irresponsible, if that makes you feel better, in the event you might consider compensating for your lack of judgement.

[voidisyinyang]

With your level of 'intelligence' yet you found it hard to negotiate your away around this book.

 

Finally the content of the book deals with lots of intense information which can not really be understood unless practiced and experienced.

 

You also stipulated that up to a point in the reading, a physical master/guide is needed.

 

The book on its own is dangerous -- I got to chapter 9 to chapter 11 in practice and at that level the energy was very dangerous.

 

Actually if you look at my posts you'll see I recommend Mantak Chia's first book as a beginner's guide to the "small universe" or "microcosmic orbit" practice and then I recommend Chunyi Lin's "small universe" c.d. to actually do the practice.

 

Then for the advanced level I recommend the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" -- this thread is focused on the advanced level which is why I didn't see it necessary to mention the beginning level book.

 

Still reading a book is different than actually practicing the exercises. So the question is can a person really understand the concepts of a book if they're not practiced? Personally I don't think so.

 

When I was reading "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" I was also taking the classes from Chunyi Lin. I read a lot of other meditation books at that time as well. I reference them all here:

 

http://www.nonduality.com/whatis8.htm

 

Vipassana and Social Change at http://www.vri.dhamma.org/general/vipintro.html; The Beverly White Community Outreach Project; Engaged Buddhism in Thailand: to cure AIDS, Enivornmentalism etc., http://www.buddhanetz.net/projekte/thailand.htm; The Engaged Zen Foundation http://www.engaged-zen.org/home.html; Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard by Chen Kaiguo, translated by Thomas Cleary and Zheng Shunchao (Boston, MA: Tuttle Publishin, 1998); Healing Society: A Prescription for Global Enlightenment (Walsch Book) by Dr. Seung-Heun Lee (Hampton Roads Pub Co, November 20, 2000); Twenty-Five Doors to Meditation: A Handbook for Entering Samadhi by William Bodri, Lee Shu-Mei (York Beach, ME: Samuel Weiser, July 1998); Cultivating the Energy of Life by Liu, Hua-yang, (Boston, Mass.: Shambhala, 1998); The Secret of the Golden Flower: The classic Chinese book of life by Lü, Tung-pin, b. 798.; Cleary, Thomas (San Francisco, Calif., 1991); Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice by Nan, Huai-chin. (York Beach, Me.: Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1993); To Realize Enlightenment: Practice of the Cultivation Path by Nan, Huai-chin (York Beach, ME: S. Weiser, 1994); Tao & Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation: An original discussion about meditation and the cultivation of Tao by Nan, Huai-chin., and others (York Beach, ME: S. Weiser, 1996); Grass Mountain: A seven day intensive in chán training with Master Nah Huai-chin by Nan Huai-Chin., and others (York Beach, Maine: Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1986); Taoist yoga: Alchemy and immortality by Chao, Pi Ch‘en, b. 1860., and others (York Beach, Me. : S. Weiser, 1984 1970); The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets for health, longevity, & enlightment by Yang, Jwing-Ming, (Jamaica Plain, Mass.: YMAA Publication Center, 1997); Taoist ways to transform stress into vitality: the inner smile, six healing sounds by Chia, Mantak, (Huntington, N.Y.: Healing Tao Books, 1985); Awaken healing light of the Tao by Chia, Mantak, 1944-, and others (Huntington, NY: Healing Tao Books, 1993); Awaken healing energy through the Tao: Ancient Chi-Kung: learn how to circulate energy through acupuncture channels by yourself by Chia, Mantak, (New York?: Taoist Esoteric Yoga Center & Foundation, 1981); The Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic: A Taoist Guide to Health, Longevity and Immortality by Stuart Alve Olson (Translator), (St. Paul, MN: Dragon Door Publication, 1993); Eight Brocades Seated Ch'Ikung by Stuart Alve Olson, Patrick D. Gross (Editor) (September 1997) Eric Naylor; The Venerable Phra Acharn Mun Bhuridatta Thera, meditation master by Bauw Ñanasampanno, Phra Maha.; Siri Buddhasukh. (Samudra Prakarn, Thailand : Buddhist Books Service, 1995); Nothing ever happened by Godman, David (Boulder, Colo.: Avadhuta Foundation, 1998); Self-enquiry: being a translation of the original instructions by Ramana, Maharshi. (Tiruvannamalai: Niranjanananda Swamy Sarvadhikari Sri Ramanasramam, 1947); The Secrets of Chinese meditation: self-cultivation by mind control as taught in the Chan, Mahayana and Taoist schools in China by Lu, K‘uan Yü, (York Beach, Me.: Samuel Weiser, 1999 1964); Taoist meditation: the Mao-shan

tradition of great purity by Robinet, Isabelle. (Albany, NY: State University of New York Press, 1993); Tranquillity & Insight: an introduction to the oldest form of Buddhist meditation by Sol*-Leris, Amadeu. (Kandy, Sri Lanka: Buddhist Publication Society, 1992); Calm and Insight: A Buddhist manual for meditators by Khantipalo, Phikkhu, (London: Curzon, 1994); The Tao and Chinese culture by Da, Liu. (London : Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1981 1979); The Tao of Health and Longevity by Da, Liu (New York: Marlowe & Co., 1990); The Bhagavad

Gita translated by Easwaran, Eknath. and Morrison, Diana. (London: Arkana, 1986); The Price of a Gift: A Lakota healer's story by Mohatt, Gerald Vincent., and others (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 2000); Awakening Spirits by Tom Brown Jr (April 1994) San Francisco: Berkley Pub Group; Asceticism in Early Taoist Religion (SUNY Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture) by Stephen Eskildsen (November 1998) State University of New York Press; Entering the Tao: Master Ni's Guidance for Self-Cultivation by Hua-Ching Ni (May 1997) Boston, MA: Shambhala Pubns); 8,000 Years of Wisdom by Hua Ching Ni (October 1994) L.A., CA: SevenStar Communications Group; Miracle Healing from

China-Qigong by Charles McGee, Effie Poy Yew Chow (June 1994) Medipress; Chi Gong: The Ancient Chinese Way to Health by Paul Dong, Aristide H. Esser (Contributor) (January 1995) Marlowe & Co; Encounters With Qi: Exploring Chinese Medicine by David Eisenberg, Thomas Lee Wright (Contributor) (August 1995) W.W. Norton & Company; Raja-Yoga by Swami Vivekananda (June 1980) Ramakrishna Vivekanada Center; Mysterious Samadhi by Surath Chakravarti (April 1984) South Asia Books; The Summits of God-Life: Samadhi and Siddhi: Liberation, Enlightenment, Nirvana and Realisation by Sri Chinmov (June 1984); Ch'an and Zen Teaching by Kuan Yu Lu, Charles Luk (December 1993) Samuel Weiser.

 

Some of these I read after I did my intensive training but most of them I read before and during my training.

 

Chunyi Lin quoted from the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" twice -- both times when I had brought the book to the classes of his -- but I had never displayed the book -- it had remained in my backpack. Still Chunyi Lin made references that were specific to the book -- once using the term jing which I had never heard him use again -- another time referring to how he had a very advanced meditation just recently that was like "falling snow in the sky" -- which is the exact same term used at the end of "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" -- right before the meditator creates a physical yang spirit body.

 

While it could be considered a coincidence that Chunyi Lin used specific terms and quotes from "Taoist Yoga" at the same time and the only time I had brought the book to his class -- other times in his class and retreats Chunyi Lin made references to information about me which otherwise would have to be considered private. He can see inside bodies and he can read past lives -- he says that -- he has telepathy, etc. I asked Chunyi Lin if he had created a yang shen physical body and he answered that he had -- as confirmed by others.

 

So this shouldn't be too surprising as Chunyi Lin focuses on the "small universe" practice and Chunyi Lin has stated that the "small universe practice on its own can take you to the most advanced levels" which again is also exactly what the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" details.

 

So if people want to know the details of how to train to be a Taoist Immortal then certainly the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" will give them the details. Chunyi Lin emphasizes himself that people can take his classes for the information but that's not the same as training to be at the level of the classes.

Edited August 19, 2010 by drewhempel

[C T]

 

Still reading a book is different than actually practicing the exercises. So the question is can a person really understand the concepts of a book if they're not practiced? Personally I don't think so.

 

Of course there will be no clear comprehension without practice. Very much in agreement here.

 

(Btw, there was no need to include your booklist. Your read too much. Whats the purpose? Life is not that complicated you know?)

[3bob]

"The heart is a lonely hunter", always searching on and on until the Truth is found that was never really lost! (thus not limited by names or mental definitions of various paths such as "immortal", "Bodhisattva" or whatever, and when that is met then the heart knows beyond all doubt)

 

Om

[voidisyinyang]

Of course there will be no clear comprehension without practice. Very much in agreement here.

 

(Btw, there was no need to include your booklist. Your read too much. Whats the purpose? Life is not that complicated you know?)

 

To be honest I would have to recommend the Bill Bodri and Master Nan, Huai-chin book

 

MEASURING MEDITATION

 

as the most amazing detailed analysis of immortality, etc. A 900 page book -- http://meditationexpert.com

 

Of course Bodri and Nan critique the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" but do so in a correct way. Again it's not that "Taoist Yoga" is wrong but, as Bodri and Nan emphasize, to properly do any type of "esoteric yoga" that depends on visualization to guide the energy then there has to be the supervision of an energy master teacher of that particular practice.

[Birch]

"depends on visualization"

 

I think this part is especially important/cool/weird/neat/dangerous/crucial.

[Vajrahridaya]

Where does the Body of LIght fit in here? Do they both have the attainment?

 

The Buddhist emphasis on compassion actually leads to entirely different attributes and powers. As the minds activities are reflective of the way it focuses. But yes, the Jalus is considered immortality.

 

I do think there are stories of Taoists attaining something similar, though the details of how similar I am not so familiar with.

[xabir2005]

Where does the Body of LIght fit in here? Do they both have the attainment?

Loppon Namdrol (whose main practice is Dzogchen and as I recall was being asked by some lamas/rinpoches to teach dzogchen though he declined):

 

No, but I have heard (from ChNN among others) that the disappearance of the body is not necessarily a sign of the body of light.

 

Hindus also gain control over the four elements, also Arhats can gain control over the four elements. Gaining control over the four elements is mundane siddhi, it is not excellent siddhi, nor is it reserved for Vajrayana and Dzogchen people. However, if someone has not studied in detail, they might think that many mundane siddhis are profound. So yes, what I am telling you is that I do not consider the so called rainbow body to much more than a display of mundane siddhi to create faith.

 

I am glad you have faith in the teachings, but as I said, I do not derive my faith in the teachings through illusions and phantasmagoria.

 

N

 

he also said:

My faith in Buddhism is based on the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination, not reports about rainbow body, etc.

 

he also said:

There is no teaching in Buddhism higher than dependent origination. Whatever originates in dependence is empty. The view of Dzogchen, according to ChNN (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche) in his rdzogs chen skor dri len is the same as Prasanga Madhyamaka, with one difference only - Madhyamaka view is a result of intellectual analysis, Dzogchen view is not. Philosophically, however, they are the same. The view of Madhyamaka does not go beyond the view of dependent origination, since the Madhyamaka view is dependent origination. He also cites Sakya Pandita "If there were something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme."

 

Further, there is no rigpa to speak of that exists separate from the earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness that make up the universe and sentient beings. Rigpa is merely a different way of talking about these six things. In their pure state (their actual state) we talk about the radiance of the five wisdoms of rig pa. In their impure state we talk about how the five elements arise from consciousness. One coin, two sides. And it is completely empty from beginning to end, and top to bottom, free from all extremes and not established in anyway.

 

Dzogchen teachings also describe the process of how sentient being continue in an afflicted state (suffering), what is the cause of that afflicted state (suffering), that fact that afflicted state can cease (the cessation of suffering) and the correct path to end that suffering (the truth of the path). Dzogchen teachings describe the four noble truths in terms of dependent origination also.

 

Ergo, Dzogchen also does not go beyond Buddha's teaching of dependent origination which Nagarjuna describes in the following fashion:

 

I bow to him, the greatest of the teachers,

the Sambuddha, by whom dependent origination --

not ceasing, not arising

not annihilated, not permanent,

not going, not coming,

not diverse, not single,

was taught as peace

in order to pacify proliferation.

Edited August 20, 2010 by xabir2005

[Sunya]

Very interesting post Xabir

[lino]

Edited August 20, 2010 by lino

[Lucky7Strikes]

The Buddhist emphasis on compassion actually leads to entirely different attributes and powers. As the minds activities are reflective of the way it focuses. But yes, the Jalus is considered immortality.

 

I do think there are stories of Taoists attaining something similar, though the details of how similar I am not so familiar with.

Hmm...I thought all things were impermanent? So isn't this immortal body a bit of...a hole?

 

Vaj, what exactly is the understanding of Jalus from what you have learned? Is it controlling the elements as Xabir's post pointed out? Is it a state? A siddhi? The embodiment of Dharmakaya? Can one return from it?

 

I'm very curious because the practices that I do are, or were at least advertised as, for that attainment specifically, although I combine it with insight practices and don't necessarily practice for "attainment."

[Lucky7Strikes]

Loppon Namdrol (whose main practice is Dzogchen and as I recall was being asked by some lamas/rinpoches to teach dzogchen though he declined):

 

No, but I have heard (from ChNN among others) that the disappearance of the body is not necessarily a sign of the body of light.

 

Hindus also gain control over the four elements, also Arhats can gain control over the four elements. Gaining control over the four elements is mundane siddhi, it is not excellent siddhi, nor is it reserved for Vajrayana and Dzogchen people. However, if someone has not studied in detail, they might think that many mundane siddhis are profound. So yes, what I am telling you is that I do not consider the so called rainbow body to much more than a display of mundane siddhi to create faith.

 

I am glad you have faith in the teachings, but as I said, I do not derive my faith in the teachings through illusions and phantasmagoria.

 

N

 

he also said:

My faith in Buddhism is based on the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination, not reports about rainbow body, etc.

 

he also said:

There is no teaching in Buddhism higher than dependent origination. Whatever originates in dependence is empty. The view of Dzogchen, according to ChNN (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche) in his rdzogs chen skor dri len is the same as Prasanga Madhyamaka, with one difference only - Madhyamaka view is a result of intellectual analysis, Dzogchen view is not. Philosophically, however, they are the same. The view of Madhyamaka does not go beyond the view of dependent origination, since the Madhyamaka view is dependent origination. He also cites Sakya Pandita "If there were something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme."

 

Further, there is no rigpa to speak of that exists separate from the earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness that make up the universe and sentient beings. Rigpa is merely a different way of talking about these six things. In their pure state (their actual state) we talk about the radiance of the five wisdoms of rig pa. In their impure state we talk about how the five elements arise from consciousness. One coin, two sides. And it is completely empty from beginning to end, and top to bottom, free from all extremes and not established in anyway.

 

Dzogchen teachings also describe the process of how sentient being continue in an afflicted state (suffering), what is the cause of that afflicted state (suffering), that fact that afflicted state can cease (the cessation of suffering) and the correct path to end that suffering (the truth of the path). Dzogchen teachings describe the four noble truths in terms of dependent origination also.

 

Ergo, Dzogchen also does not go beyond Buddha's teaching of dependent origination which Nagarjuna describes in the following fashion:

 

I bow to him, the greatest of the teachers,

the Sambuddha, by whom dependent origination --

not ceasing, not arising

not annihilated, not permanent,

not going, not coming,

not diverse, not single,

was taught as peace

in order to pacify proliferation.

Yet isn't there a depth to the understanding of emptiness? And doesn't the insight lead naturally to manifestations of unentanglement in experience and form. That it is not just a conceptual understanding, but that perception of reality for the enlightened alters. That Thusness does infact experiences reality differently, that he is wired differently?

 

If dependent origination frees psychological grasping of the "I" because of its truth regarding the empty nature of self and after awhile one no longer is illusioned with an "I," in that it disappears like the child of a barren women, shouldn't it also display its truth by displaying the empty and ungraspability of phenomena as well? That one can readily be free from material functions?

 

I don't know, I'm really just asking questions here. To me it seems like the enlightened being should have the ability of all siddhis.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[xabir2005]

Yet isn't there a depth to the understanding of emptiness? And doesn't the insight lead naturally to manifestations of unentanglement in experience and form. That it is not just a conceptual understanding, but that perception of reality for the enlightened alters. That Thusness does infact experiences reality differently, that he is wired differently?

 

If dependent origination frees psychological grasping of the "I" because of its truth regarding the empty nature of self and after awhile one no longer is illusioned with an "I," in that it disappears like the child of a barren women, shouldn't it also display its truth by displaying the empty and ungraspability of phenomena as well? That one can readily be free from material functions?

 

I don't know, I'm really just asking questions here. To me it seems like the enlightened being should have the ability of all siddhis.

From The Four Yogas and the Five Paths, page 248 of 'Essentials of Mahamudra' by Khenchen Trangu Rinpoche (Thusness and I would recommend this book along with 'Clarifying the Natural State' - very good teachings and instructions, even for a non-Mahamudra practitioner):

 

The four types of mahamudra can be correlated to the five paths of the sutra vehicle. The yoga of one-pointedness corresponds to the first two paths of accumulation and preparation. We do not have direct realization of emptiness on these paths; nevertheless insight has been generated to some extent within our continuum. The yoga of freedom from complexity corresponds to the third path of seeing. Emptiness is now realized directly, unmediated by conceptuality. The yoga of one taste corresponds to the fourth path of meditation, and the yoga of nonmeditation corresponds to the pith path of no more learning.

 

The text and treatises speak extensively of extraordinary qualities - emanations, powers and clairvoyances, the thirty-two marks and the eighty signs of a buddha, and so forth - that we develop on the paths and that are complete on the final path. When we have progressed through the four yogas and arrived at the final yoga, we do not have the qualities of emanation and clairvoyance or the physical signs of the Shakyamuni Buddha. Why is that? There is really no difference in terms of the qualities of mind - in terms of what needs to be abandoned and what needs to be realized. Buddha Shakyamuni, however, spent incalculable lifetimes accumulating merit and wisdom, so that when he took birth in India, he took birth not through the force of ordinary karma but through the force of having accumulated vast collections of merit and wisdom. Milarepa, on the other hand, was born a very ordinary person. Through the ripening of actions and afflictions that were accumulated on the basis of confusion, he was extremely fortunate to be able to meet with a fully qualified guru and receive profound instructions from the guru. He was able too exert himself ferociously at this practice so that he achieved enlightenment in one lifetime. The mind of Milarepa was no different from the mind of Shakyamuni Buddha in what it abandoned and what it realized; however, not having progressed through the path in the same way by accumulating such vast merits, Milarepa did not have the qualities of body and speech that Buddha Shakyamuni had.

 

-----------

 

Also, from 'Clarifying the Natural State' by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, it states:

 

Presently, since you simply sustain the way of the natural state and do not practice the path explained in the causal vehicles, the signs of that path will therefore not appear. However, it is held that all the manifest qualities will appear simultaneously and spontaneously once you have perfected the strength of greater Nonmeditation.

[Lucky7Strikes]

From The Four Yogas and the Five Paths, page 248 of 'Essentials of Mahamudra' by Khenchen Trangu Rinpoche (Thusness and I would recommend this book along with 'Clarifying the Natural State' - very good teachings and instructions, even for a non-Mahamudra practitioner):

 

The four types of mahamudra can be correlated to the five paths of the sutra vehicle. The yoga of one-pointedness corresponds to the first two paths of accumulation and preparation. We do not have direct realization of emptiness on these paths; nevertheless insight has been generated to some extent within our continuum. The yoga of freedom from complexity corresponds to the third path of seeing. Emptiness is now realized directly, unmediated by conceptuality. The yoga of one taste corresponds to the fourth path of meditation, and the yoga of nonmeditation corresponds to the pith path of no more learning.

 

The text and treatises speak extensively of extraordinary qualities - emanations, powers and clairvoyances, the thirty-two marks and the eighty signs of a buddha, and so forth - that we develop on the paths and that are complete on the final path. When we have progressed through the four yogas and arrived at the final yoga, we do not have the qualities of emanation and clairvoyance or the physical signs of the Shakyamuni Buddha. Why is that? There is really no difference in terms of the qualities of mind - in terms of what needs to be abandoned and what needs to be realized. Buddha Shakyamuni, however, spent incalculable lifetimes accumulating merit and wisdom, so that when he took birth in India, he took birth not through the force of ordinary karma but through the force of having accumulated vast collections of merit and wisdom. Milarepa, on the other hand, was born a very ordinary person. Through the ripening of actions and afflictions that were accumulated on the basis of confusion, he was extremely fortunate to be able to meet with a fully qualified guru and receive profound instructions from the guru. He was able too exert himself ferociously at this practice so that he achieved enlightenment in one lifetime. The mind of Milarepa was no different from the mind of Shakyamuni Buddha in what it abandoned and what it realized; however, not having progressed through the path in the same way by accumulating such vast merits, Milarepa did not have the qualities of body and speech that Buddha Shakyamuni had.

 

-----------

 

Also, from 'Clarifying the Natural State' by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, it states:

 

Presently, since you simply sustain the way of the natural state and do not practice the path explained in the causal vehicles, the signs of that path will therefore not appear. However, it is held that all the manifest qualities will appear simultaneously and spontaneously once you have perfected the strength of greater Nonmeditation.

Ah, so the manifestations and signs will eventually appear, but level of realization is the same. But not necessarily that the manifestations mean there is realization?

 

I actually ordered Mahamudra: The Moonlight two days ago, not the same book but a bit of a coincidence .

[Lucky7Strikes]

Interesting things Buddha said about attainments, read at the end:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html

[Vajrahridaya]

Hmm...I thought all things were impermanent? So isn't this immortal body a bit of...a hole?

 

When you realize endless impermanence, you have endless consciousness of this that arises dependent upon this insight. So, dependent arising is still the emphasis, always.

 

Vaj, what exactly is the understanding of Jalus from what you have learned? Is it controlling the elements as Xabir's post pointed out? Is it a state? A siddhi? The embodiment of Dharmakaya? Can one return from it?

 

Jalus in Dzogchen is basically for the sake of keeping your connection to sentient beings active eternally by illuminating your physical components for the sake of compassion towards physicality. You can manifest a physical body from this state while remaining in this state and you can manifest in higher or lower realms, all empty of inherent existence within this permanent realization of the nature of impermanence.

 

The only difference between Jalus and regular Buddhahood is it's easier for you to connect and be seen by sentient beings if they wish to call upon your help. They don't have to have a major amount of clarity, only a bit will do to see a Buddha who has attainment in Jalus.

 

So of course it's a hole in the program. That's emptiness... the hole in the entire program that allows for liberation from all extremes.

 

I'm very curious because the practices that I do are, or were at least advertised as, for that attainment specifically, although I combine it with insight practices and don't necessarily practice for "attainment."

 

It's natural. It's not that you have a goal in mind per say outside of realizing the nature of your inner and outer elements. It is an attainment in the mundane sense in the fact that you are doing it for the sake of helping others endlessly, but at the same time, you see the emptiness and non-inherency of it all simultaneously. It's only paradoxical in discussion, but not in intuition.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Lucky7Strikes]

When you realize endless impermanence, you have endless consciousness of this that arises dependent upon this insight. So, dependent arising is still the emphasis, always.

 

 

 

Jalus in Dzogchen is basically for the sake of keeping your connection to sentient beings active eternally by illuminating your physical components for the sake of compassion towards physicality. You can manifest a physical body from this state while remaining in this state and you can manifest in higher or lower realms, all empty of inherent existence within this permanent realization of the nature of impermanence.

 

The only difference between Jalus and regular Buddhahood is it's easier for you to connect and be seen by sentient beings if they wish to call upon your help. They don't have to have a major amount of clarity, only a bit will do to see a Buddha who has attainment in Jalus.

 

So of course it's a hole in the program. That's emptiness... the hole in the entire program that allows for liberation from all extremes.

 

 

 

It's natural. It's not that you have a goal in mind per say outside of realizing the nature of your inner and outer elements. It is an attainment in the mundane sense in the fact that you are doing it for the sake of helping others endlessly, but at the same time, you see the emptiness and non-inherency of it all simultaneously. It's only paradoxical in discussion, but not in intuition.

Ok, makes sense a bit.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ok, makes sense a bit.

 

Yeah... sorry. I'm no pro. But, I'm glad this helped... a bit.

[xabir2005]

Ah, so the manifestations and signs will eventually appear, but level of realization is the same. But not necessarily that the manifestations mean there is realization?

 

I actually ordered Mahamudra: The Moonlight two days ago, not the same book but a bit of a coincidence .

Yes.

 

Essentials of Mahamudra is the commentary of Mahamudra: The Moonlight. You should get that book to complement Mahamudra: The Moonlight. Mahamudra: The Moonlight is another superb book by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, sorry didn't mention it earlier.