Thoughts on vegetarianism?

[Astral_Anima]

Hey all,

Vegetarianism seems to be a common "requisite" for many spiritual traditions. Certain Buddhists, the Essenes, Hinduism, Certain Yogis, holders of the Light and Sound Meditation, etc. I was just reading this article...

 

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/essays/veg.asp

 

...which makes a few interesting points about spiritual life in general. Thought it'd be fun to share. Love to hear sum opinions on this since it's still a rather controversial topic.

 

-Astral

[voidisyinyang]

[Dainin]

Hello Astral,

 

Just to let you know, there are many threads on this topic in the archives, which can be searched using the box towards the upper right side of the screen.

[Guest paul walter]

Being vegetarian is a good first step in the proper context -- and then going vegan and then going salt-free and then fasting, etc.

 

 

I thought we'd gone through all this many times before on TTB man!! Meat eating is a matter of free choice, we live in a democratic society you arsehole and no fag taoist or otherwise system is gonna convert me to some notion of denying myself that right!! There is NO correlation between diet and spirituality/cultivation, get it! Get your head out of your lower tan-tien and wake up!--this is America man, survival of the fittest... Paul.

 

Just thought it would be good for my sanity to say all that

[Ramon25]

I used to think the isssue was clear cut. not so much anymore. Diet definalty affects your spirituality, but i dont think eating meat makes you any less spiritual automatically and I dont think being a veg head makes you more automatically, many times the reverse may happend in both cases.Maybe it depends on your brand of spirituality and what that means. I think physical/mental constitution matter, if you are an ungrounded person meat will probably help and your very grounded natrually then being a vegatarian may help. Also different stages of development make a difference in what you may need. I howver believe quite strongly in a quote I once heard. " no man should stop eating meat and force vegatarianism unto himself unless happends natrually"

[voidisyinyang]

I thought we'd gone through all this many times before on TTB man!! Meat eating is a matter of free choice, we live in a democratic society you arsehole and no fag taoist or otherwise system is gonna convert me to some notion of denying myself that right!! There is NO correlation between diet and spirituality/cultivation, get it! Get your head out of your lower tan-tien and wake up!--this is America man, survival of the fittest... Paul.

 

Just thought it would be good for my sanity to say all that

 

Yeah it's like when the Chinese invaded Tibet -- traditionally they ate barley because it was suited for the climate but the Chinese didn't know that, so destroyed the barley, replacing it with crappy food. haha. The British did the same to the Bengalis replacing jute production.

[Guest paul walter]

I used to think the isssue was clear cut. not so much anymore. Diet definalty affects your spirituality, but i dont think eating meat makes you any less spiritual automatically and I dont think being a veg head makes you more automatically, many times the reverse may happend in both cases.Maybe it depends on your brand of spirituality and what that means. I think physical/mental constitution matter, if you are an ungrounded person meat will probably help and your very grounded natrually then being a vegatarian may help. Also different stages of development make a difference in what you may need. I howver believe quite strongly in a quote I once heard. " no man should stop eating meat and force vegatarianism unto himself unless happends natrually"

 

 

Yeah, what I find remarkable is that, unlike with every other form of 'cultivation' that goes on on this forum, no-one in my experience has ever asked what are the benefits/effects 'spiritually' of such diets. I suppose it's one of those things that we so take for granted (food, and plenty of it) that to question it's properties and value doesn't occur to most? Paul

[Guest paul walter]

Yeah it's like when the Chinese invaded Tibet -- traditionally they ate barley because it was suited for the climate but the Chinese didn't know that, so destroyed the barley, replacing it with crappy food. haha. The British did the same to the Bengalis replacing jute production.

 

 

Yes, the ubiquitous tsampa. The barley is warming as is the yak fat they mix it with and the always on-hand yak butter tea they consumed throughout the day. To be fair the Commies replaced most climate specific crops wherever they planted their ideology, not just in Tibet--hence the famines

 

Theodore Illion in 'In Secret Tibet' talks of living on tsampa (he was vego)and raw plants as he crossed the bitterly cold plateau (partly to not give away his presence to bandits through the smoke that would come from fires) . He mentions the 'real' spiritual adepts (hermits) lived in caves and were almost all vego as oppossed to the dried meat eating monks in their nice safe monasteries . He (and they) put it down to proper breathing/ good circulation and from vego diet. Reminds me of the composer Percy Grainger who was stopped by cops on a street in NY one freezing winters day cause he was wearing hardly anything to keep out the cold--he looked weird in that context. He told them since neither meat nor alcohol/cigs pass his lips he never feels the cold.

Edited August 19, 2010 by paul walter

[Astral_Anima]

Hello Astral,

 

Just to let you know, there are many threads on this topic in the archives, which can be searched using the box towards the upper right side of the screen.

 

Would you mind providing sum links? The only topics on vegetarianism were related to physical health and not spirituality.

 

-Astral

[C T]

Would you mind providing sum links? The only topics on vegetarianism were related to physical health and not spirituality.

 

-Astral

Very so often people tend to form the opinion that lack of optimal physical health and spiritual hunger are two holes in the same handkerchief. Naturally, due to the inherent idea that nothing is ever enough, some of us find it uneasy to live with even the tiniest feeling of lack. Hence we expend a lot of energy to compensate for this perceived lack. By doing so, we remain for always in the vicious circle of trying to find balance when none was missing. Maybe we just need to see that as time passes, there will be holes in any handkerchief, and it pays to learn to accept them, in order to see the 'wholeness' even with the perceived on-set of imperfections. Then the struggling can find a way to end itself, without us having to do anything in particular. When we do not take the view that we are the cause of the struggle, that struggle is actually its own creator, then it becomes easy to let it come and go by its own energy, without having to negate or avert it, which only tends to fuel it even more.

 

Just have to bear in mind (i prefer the term 'mindful attention') that we are not the holes but the handkerchief, the essence of it, of which no holes can ever diminish.

[Guest paul walter]

Would you mind providing sum links? The only topics on vegetarianism were related to physical health and not spirituality.

 

-Astral

 

 

Spot on CowTao!

 

 

Astral, if you are interested in this topic seriously you should know the books 'Conscious Eating' and 'Spiritual Nutrition' by Gabriel Cousens. They are the most comprehensive things available on this topic at the present moment. The first talks about the science,spirituality and history of vegetarian, vegan and raw foods diets. There are raw recipes in the back. It's his magnum opus , must read. The second focuses on raw foods, chakras, kundalini, fasting, etc. His next book (maybe it's out now?) will be about fasting as spiritual practice--how to and history. Cousens is a Kabballah initiate ,meditator, Kriya yoga practicer, doctor (MD and homeopathy), counsellor and.....did 601 push-ups at his 60th birthday party! He tells in some interview of how he could only do 60 when he was in his 20's and was in an Ivy League football team but after about 30 years on raw foods (vegan except for bee pollen) he has essentially reversed a lot of the 'decline' of the body and feels better now than then! Paul.

[metal dog]

Some thoughts and considerations...

 

I have adopted the belief that my spirit decided to incarnate into a physical vessel which is my body. My spirit now having an attachment to that physical body is now termed... a soul.

 

My physical body is experiencing a physical reality to learn from and experience.

Some regard this process as the "Fall of Man". This descent into physicality, or in some cases, the demonization of this descent into physicality.

 

As a physical being my biology and physiology does suggest that I am suited for survival as an omnivore, particularly the teeth and digestive tract. Fortunately, should climate, natural disaster or any other event limit my regular or popular food choices of the times, I can choose to gain sustenance from something other than the usual fare and perhaps thrive. At the most base and gross physical level this is real.

 

But even on this physical level there is diversity as to what one can comfortably eat. It may vary by genetics, gender, race, constitution, allergies and a host of other factors that can be different from one individual to another. I had recently read that many Asians typically have a pancreas twice the size of westerners and this makes them more adapted to eating and assimilating grains over the westerner. I have also read that those of a "pitta" Ayurvedic typing will be more suited toward a vegetarian lifestyle whereas other types may not be.

 

Not that I take the Bible to be a literal book of history or rules to live by, but many a veggie will quote the Genesis bit about every seed-bearing fruit and plant being food for man. And yet, later there are changes to that where it is suitable to include clean meats. Lifespan also seems to be reduces with such a change.

To me, such a change in lifespan could have not occurred with just a choice in diet, but a genetic alteration of significance...to go from living 500-900 years down to 120.

 

How could something so necessary for survival be rife with differences of opinion regarding what to eat?

 

Energetically and spiritually brings in many other considerations. Then you have religions or the residual customs bestowed from religious beliefs.

 

Take all this into account and the many different advices on food and diet and one thing is for sure...conflict is about the most common conclusion.

 

I do think that at a certain point, one will find that minimizing or eliminating animal foods during energetic and spiritual practice will bring advances in gains. But to extremes this type of a lifestyle is best served in the full monastic context of living. Working a nine-to-five job, raising a family, going to the gym, and many other secular activities may demand a bit of clean, good quality animal food from time to time.

But how many animal food eaters limit their portions to 4-6 ounces and only three times a week?

Most people don't eat well and are not balanced in their choices in most regards.

A certain amount of respect and responsibility makes the choice to eat animal foods a more healthful choice, but for many a necessary one.

 

I have tried a well balanced vegetarian diet for three years. I found that I needed to include some animal products in my diet just a few times a week. But I also lift moderate weights and do physical work so I burn it and take measures to balance that choice.

 

My best animal food choice is making whey from soured raw, organic goat or cow's milk. I don't buy powders, but make my own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey

 

Next comes free-range, organic eggs. Which I either eat poached in water or soft-boiled at low temperatures.

(My master has told me that lightly cooked eggs are good for chi.)

 

Next comes the lighter meats of fish, some shellfish, then birds, then what I one can consider, if they deem it necessary, the "clean meat" herbivores starting from the smallest in size to the largest in size (as I think hormone levels in a large cow may not be as suitable for humans as say, eating deer or gazelle...just a theory.) I do eat some fish raw, after freezing to kill parasites, in the form of sushi that I make myself and I do eat some beef quite rare as well. Delicate cooking is best, although I am not adverse to a summer day of grilling. But I do recommend animals that have been fed an ideal diet, allowed to roam-exercise and are not filled up with chemicals.

 

Periodic short cleansing fasts and 2 more extensive fasts each year with some colonic irrigations keep the system clean and rids the body of excessive proteins and substances that may be anchored within the body.

 

Should I take up a more spiritual practice in my future, then the reduction of animal foods or eating the "lighter" forms less often would take precedence. But I would have to notice or have some type of signal that this was helping me in my spiritual practice...some corroboration that what everyone seems to say about it has some validity that can be realized. (rather than enlightened-sounding espoused precepts)

 

These books recos are interesting Paul...I will have to take a look into this further. Thanks.

Edited August 19, 2010 by metal dog

[slimjim]

Vegetables in your diet is good.. Only vegetables is bad if you don't have enough fire.

 

So say if your doing ALOT of chi kung.. Or Doing moxibustion and chi kung, then I would say go vegetarian.. Otherwise your not helping yourself to much, maybe just your beliefs.

 

Meditation Teacher

Edited August 19, 2010 by slimjim

[Astral_Anima]

Just to clarify

 

When I say vegetarian i mean simply no meat fish or foul or any corpse of the animal kindom. VEGAN is when you exclude dairy and eggs. I'm actually a supporter of raw dairy cause I think it benefits people and it doesn't involve killing or hurting life, doesn't cause any suffering.

 

Now I see alot of stuff here about health. But thats not why i'm addressing vegetarianism as a topic, i'm addressing vegetarianism in regards to spiritual practice. The health debate is still ongoing, though i think is actually settled (it is in MY mind at least), but i'm addressing spiritual life. For example the idea of karma and ingesting the by-product of death. Would you take stolen money? I mean you didn't steal it, but does that make it okay to take? It's these kind of questions.

 

Or how about energy practice. Has anyone noticed an improvement in their internal energies? perhaps less bad things happening (karma theory)? Or how about the idea of simply being in control of what you ingest, being the master of you body? Or how about the idea of only eating what is needed and leaving the rest, living on as little as possible? Also what about Bigu or breatharianism?

 

THATS the stuff I was talking about. Personally I don't think there's any health issues that are cause by deficiency die to abstaining from meat. When I went vegetarian i experienced some effects that people said were deficiencies...but the symptoms were temporary. I think it's all in your mind, that your bodyw ill eventually adapt and that slight discomfort due to an empty stomach or cravings is a minor thing compared to the REAL challenges of spiritual practice. But this last paragraph is based on opinion and wasn't the intended subject of this post

Edited August 20, 2010 by Astral_Anima

[dnice]

fanatics

[Ryan T.]

Just to clarify

 

When I say vegetarian i mean simply no meat fish or foul or any corpse of the animal kindom. VEGAN is when you exclude dairy and eggs. I'm actually a supporter of raw dairy cause I think it benefits people and it doesn't involve killing or hurting life, doesn't cause any suffering.

 

I am sure the animals that are kept in perpetual-lactation would disagree with you on that fact.

 

And I am interested in why, in these vegetarian conversations, no one brings up the life/consciousness of the plants and vegetables that are getting consumed? This idea that we summarily draw a line in the sand and say that this type of being is life and this one is not seems more than a little outdated to me. Even to say sentient beings is a little ignorant in my opinion. There will come a day when we will see animals and plants in a very similar way in regard to them being life forms.

 

Now how these different life forms effect a person energetically is a whole other thing.

 

Personally, I am not able to live a normal life without animal foods in my diet. My activities, metabolism, and geographic climate currently align against any vegetarian tendencies I might want to foster. But as a caveat, I am also not currently able to fully give myself to the type of spiritual cultivation that I truly desire. But soon!

[Ramon25]

Due to kundalini I CANNOT go with out animal foods particullary red meat for to long. The poster stating that not eating animal foods leads to no deficiencies.. Basic biology disagrees with you, BUT the mind is everything so its possible that a person practicing inner alchemy and acupuncture ect, might alter his physicality on a quantum level and not need meat, True, But at the level of biology without any energetic work and such... we need meat

[mYTHmAKER]

[DalTheJigsaw123]

[Ramon25]

mike mahler is also a vegan and one strong mofo! He is the first guy doing the snatches. To clear he modles his diet after a meat eater. Plenty of fat and protien moderate carbs, but still vegan.

[Astral_Anima]

on a macro and micro nutrient level there's nothing in meat that you can't get from a vegetarian source. it's just that meat is more convienient...again this is all about health...but whatev i'll just let it be. I'll just quote a thought from the link which i'm sure nobody read...

 

"Hindu texts remind us constantly that man is made in the mold of God. Man is a microcosm made in the manner of Brahman or Purusha or the macrocosm. If that be so, we possess in our individual microcosms all that exist in the macrocosm including all the celestial deities and divine energies as well as all the demons and negative energies. These deities and energies are active or inactive, latent or manifest, depending upon where we stand on the spiritual path individually.

Our inner cosmic order is constantly shaped by our actions and aspirations. Each and every minute either we are evolving or devolving. If we strive for spiritual awakening and do the needed practice, we awaken the deities and divine energies who would assist us to progress further on the path. On the contrary if we are driven by our egoistic nature and aim to satisfy our lower needs, we might awaken the demons and the negative energies who might assist us in achieving our worldly goals but also delude us and wean us away from the spiritual path. It is therefore karma guided by the buddhi, or the discriminating intelligence, which plays a crucial role in deciding which path one would choose in life and what would happen eventually.

Much depend upon what the deities would prefer and what cosmic order you would like to establish in your consciousness. If you want higher energies to work through you and manifest in yourself, you need to make your body and mind suitable for their activity. If you want to keep the demons away, you need to do things that would not let them establish themselves in you and become stronger. You would not feed them with the food of their preference that would eventually over power and silence the deities.

As you can see it is not just food, but the over all discipline that plays a crucial role in your spiritual evolution and what you manifest in your being. The purpose of such discipline is purification of the mind and the body. Food is a crucial aspect of this purification process. Till you become adept in harnessing other forms of energy, it is through food that you channel your energies to your inner cosmic order.

To know what food is appropriate and what is not is in a given situation is not always easy. The knowledge that we gain through the mind may not be always helpful. The mind is fed by the senses and the senses are not reliable in matters concerning the spirit that is beyond the mind and the senses. So in spiritual matters we can rely but little upon our learned and conditioned minds. To know what is appropriate we have to enter God's consciousness and know what God would actually prefer His devotees to do. This is not easy. We are not that fortunate like Neale Donald Walsch* to whom God would speak on every trivial matter and help him write books and make money. So, if we want to find a reliable answer about the nature of food that is appropriate for a spiritual aspirant, either we have to rely upon a learned master or guru for guidance or we have to look for definite clues in scriptures to distinguish the appropriate from the inappropriate."

Edited August 20, 2010 by Astral_Anima

[Guest paul walter]

Vegetables in your diet is good.. Only vegetables is bad if you don't have enough fire.

 

So say if your doing ALOT of chi kung.. Or Doing moxibustion and chi kung, then I would say go vegetarian.. Otherwise your not helping yourself to much, maybe just your beliefs.

 

Meditation Teacher

 

 

Ever been vego Slim? If so, what kind/diet.

[Guest paul walter]

I am sure the animals that are kept in perpetual-lactation would disagree with you on that fact.

 

And I am interested in why, in these vegetarian conversations, no one brings up the life/consciousness of the plants and vegetables that are getting consumed? This idea that we summarily draw a line in the sand and say that this type of being is life and this one is not seems more than a little outdated to me. Even to say sentient beings is a little ignorant in my opinion. There will come a day when we will see animals and plants in a very similar way in regard to them being life forms.

 

Now how these different life forms effect a person energetically is a whole other thing.

 

Personally, I am not able to live a normal life without animal foods in my diet. My activities, metabolism, and geographic climate currently align against any vegetarian tendencies I might want to foster. But as a caveat, I am also not currently able to fully give myself to the type of spiritual cultivation that I truly desire. But soon!

 

You're right about the plant thing. It's recognised as a compromise in spiritual circles who deal with this sort of conundrum. There are 'karmic' problems attached apparently. Which really puts the onus on us to go all out for bigu doesn't it? The consciousness of plants has been brought up in other discussions like this, which is more than you can say about the consciousness of meat eaters in these posts--what never gets mentioned is the bad stats on health from the meat eating diets. It's an interesting thing (not) to see the attacks on vego's that often happens as a way of keeping the truth of the problems in the mainstream diet out of the picture. Such criticisms that need to be addressed include the effect of the diet on nutritional deficiencies, serious degenerative illness and outright death. I'm not advocating vegoism by the way. Also Ryan, who wants a normal life?

[Ryan T.]

[mYTHmAKER]

Famous omnivores: Everyone else!

 

You may have missed the point. There are also many vegetarians who are/were not professional athletes are/were not famous.

 

I am sure if I cared to take the time I could come up with just as many or more folks that have done much in the world whether it be physical pursuits, social/political justice causes or explored higher realms of spiritual life that all consumed animal foods on a regular basis.

 

It's not a contest. My point was to show what is possible.

One can be rich, famous, a great athlete whether - meat eater- vegetarian - vegan or whatever you choose.

The most important thing in order to be healthy, great athlete, spiritual etc is WHAT YOU DON'T EAT.

Edited August 20, 2010 by mYTHmAKER