Thoughts on vegetarianism?

[Ryan T.]

It's not a contest. My point was to show what is possible.

One can be rich, famous, a great athlete whether - meat eater- vegetarian - vegan or whatever you choose.

The most important thing in order to be healthy, great athlete, spiritual etc is WHAT YOU DON'T EAT.

 

Sorry, that's how it read to me.

 

Ultimately I think we fundamentally agree. Although I believe what you eat is just as important as what you don't eat. Just my experience.

[Brian]

...

[metal dog]

To avoid ingesting the by-products of death, one must stop consuming anything formerly alive, including vegetation. Any other diet requires a rationalization.

 

These subjective labels, "corpses" or "by-products of death", have been and are actually called...FOOD.

 

Animal foods have long sustained humanity on this planet and you would not even be here if it were not for the many generations before you having consumed animal food.

 

Before globalization, international shipping, the invention of electricity to power the grocery stores, refrigerators and freezers...your food choices would have been dictated by the geographic region in which you lived and by the climate and season. Storage and preservation methods would have been much more traditional. And your chances of surviving on a vegetarian or vegan diet reduced or nearly impossible, particularly the further away from the equator you lived. At or beyond the 50th parallel, during winter, you would have died without some form of animal food to sustain you...no matter how many potatoes you socked away for winter.

 

It is also false that vegetables can give you everything a meat diet can. Now that I live in an extreme northern climate with extended periods of no sunlight, and having spoken to the local elder physicians, it is a known fact with your child that if you think vegetable vitamin A, B12 and D is the same as what you can get from fish oil or animal sources you are sadly mistaken. Provitamin A or Carotene is what you get from vegetables to be specific, and you cannot make this conversion of you are a child, diabetic or have poor thyroid function. The bones and brain development of developing children in cold climates will suffer.

 

None of the higher mammals are strictly vegetarian. All primates eat some form of animal food. Gorillas mistakenly labeled vegetarian eat loads of insects and larvae adhering to the leaves and fruit they eat. The contribution of these to their health is profound. Other primates eat crickets, flies, rodents, small antelope and other animals.

 

The insect parts, larvae and eggs left on plant foods in more traditional times before food was made so sanitary, even the Hindu would actually have protection to prevent vitamin B12 deficiency anemia.

 

When you examine the healthiest of the people prior to the post-industrialized world of convenience...you will see they all consumed animal products in some way. And when that was removed from the diet for whatever reason, health was impacted and not for the better.

 

I do feel that those who put the "spiritual" label on food choices are not seeing the whole picture of the entire reality. Just they one they deem to be more..."special", "higher", "elevated", "enlightened".

I don't believe that my choice to have a glass of milk from a humanely treated cow, an egg from a humanely treated chicken, or a piece of meat from a humanely raised livestock animal that was slaughtered for food makes me any less spiritual than the next guy.

 

From my experience its the roosters and peacocks that strut around talking about their spirituality and their religions that seem to exhibit the most contradiction and inhumanity in this life.

 

When you are lost in the woods, in the dark, cold deep of winter and you huddle yourself while shivering to stay alive; shuffling through the high snow with nothing to eat...then you will happen upon me sitting next to my fire with a fresh killed rabbit sizzling and smelling of delight. I shall allow you to enter my camp and warm yourself by the fire as you attempt to dig through the frozen earth for a tuber...but you will get none of my sustenance for I know it is forbidden to you...and slowly I will watch you die and fade away...with my final thought and comment..."Whoa...that was so spiritual a spectacle...what a special person...so high...so pristine...so pure. May the Great Ones forgive me for what I am about to do"... (sprinkles salt and pepper on rabbit and munches...and lives another day.)

Edited August 20, 2010 by metal dog

[SFJane]

Hey all,Vegetarianism seems to be a common "requisite" for many spiritual traditions. Thought it'd be fun to share. Love to hear sum opinions on this since it's still a rather controversial topic. -Astral

 

Hi Astral, Re: vegetarianism and spirituality.

 

What I am about to say, may piss some people off. My intention by posting this is not to get some feel good group-love from spreading any specific kind of groupthink around. My intention is to share some observations and thoughts I've picked up during my own cultivation and spiritual quests.

 

I, personally, think that vegetarianism does not equate or have anything to do with spirituality. Not in the least. Spirituality and vegetarianism are concepts that only a highly advanced frontal lobe wielding vertebrate like a human could come up with and dwell on.

 

I think that the idea of vegetarianism being useful (or not) in spirituality is an absolute exercise in mental masturbation. The reason is, only a modern-day human can afford the luxury of moral codes, ethics and philosophy. None of which, jives with the active functioning of the real world happening all around them. Its like, almost deliberate or disingenuous denial of the obvious. And any Taoist who prides themselves on their observation skills of –what is-- really happening in this world would probably agree somewhat with my assessment after some consideration,

 

Have you ever read Dawkins 'The Ancestors Tale'? All of life is in a perpetual struggle for energy. Everything eats to survive. Save for plants that live of off photosynthesis or gas and nutrient exchanges like deep ocean ecosystems.

 

In short: Evolution started with an amoeba. That amoeba had to eat. It found another amoebae and ate it. It ate it and gained energy in the eating, and it grew. Everything after that is history.

 

Only a humans moral frontal lobe could deny the fact of bloody energy devouring as a way of life or imagine that there some kind of sapient value, like 'good' or 'bad' or 'low vibrational' or 'immoral' could possibly be attached to what simply IS the natural way of things.

 

Evolution, ie Nature ie Tao and the ten thousand manifestations that come from the Tao, endowed all living breathing creatures with the need to feed. To secure food, life evolved heat sensors, poison sacks, retractable claws, night vision, increased hearing, ampullae of Lorenzini, projectile digestive acid, serrated teeth, neurotoxic venom, sticky webs, electrical discharges, bioluminescence, grasping tentacles, camouflage, burst sprinting, ambush strategy, delicate nostrils, deep diving ability and echolocation, stinging cells, pack mentality, blood-lust, feeding frenzy—its all part of 'God's' plan or else it wouldn't be here.

 

Nature is not self-conscious of its own criminal and 'unenlightened' nature. And it doesn't remotely give a shit. And when a female Orca kills a false pilot whale or a lioness kills a cheetah to reduce food competition, or a praying mantis eats her mate, this is not murder but nature.

 

No animal grapples with morality as it rips apart its prey, breaks it neck, laps its blood off its paws, cracks its marrow in its teeth. It's normal. Natural. Good or bad can not factor into it, anymore than a black hole is good or bad. It simply is the way it is. We humans, we get stabilized in life, we get Maslow's hierarchy of needs down. We have an abundant and varied food source and we start working on self-actualization needs.

 

One day we are reading philosophy books about the nature of right action and suddenly we are burdened with a consciousness about what we eat? WTF is that? Logic bomb. Must be nice to not live in a crop destroyed area where the berries and fruits got blighted and there's nothing left but hunting and fishing until next sowing season.

 

While you are eating your vegeburger and marmalade toast, keep your eye out for a jumping spider sitting at the edge of your table happily slurping the dissolved contents of the prey bug that it stalked and ambushed to keep its energy going. The spider has no spiritual dissonance. No cognitive dissonance, It never struggles with the spirituality of consumption. It does what its supposed to do and lives in harmony with the Tao because of it.

 

I've done the vegan and vegetarian thing. It's nice sometimes, for a few days--but permanent vegetarianism isn't for me. If you are going to eat, eat what feels good. Learn what feels good by listening to your own amoeba-nature. If you are going to eat meat, love it. Give in to the animal pleasure of it. Lick the fat from your fingers. Enjoy it for you are simply being Human. Don't let your head and those pesky over-active frontal lobes get in the way of your belly. Cultivation is done with the mind. Digestion--by the gut.

Edited August 20, 2010 by SFJane

[Brian]

...

[Astral_Anima]

Just to provide humorous rebuttle for those that may read this...

 

SFJane- As for "nature" when we talk about nature being as "The nature of things", it's not quite as "set in stone" as you seem to imply. "Nature" in that sense simply means what has been happening for the longest time and thus is the easiest thing to do. For example...You could look at the constant violence in human history, the wars, the crimes, etc and say that violence or killing is in our "nature'. Or you could look at meat eating in the past centuries and say since everyone is/was doing it then it must be our "nature".

 

Well yeah if thats the case then houses, cars, roads, supermarkets, money etc aren't "natural" cause they only appeared in the last couple hundred(probably thousand) years! However thanks to the concept of EVOLUTION, we have adapted to change and in most cases it's a change for the better to lengthen lives, create harmony and increase the quality of life. Yes you must be honest about what IS but that doesn't not mean to have to be submissive and conform yourself to whatever is going on around you. The point is you have a choice. You're "Nature" is transient, meaning you're not set at one thing.

 

Also to give into "animal pleasure" is to forgo intellect and go back to instinct. We are human for a reason, it's because we have intellect and we can define whats best for us and through communication and observation wats best for others too. If we are microcosms of the universe then we hold inside ourselves every aspect of being; animals, humans, demons, angels, enlightened masters, etc. The question is which one will you feed? And i don't just mean with food, it mean with thought, action, word, etc. We become what we imitate. If we do like buddha we become buddha, if we do like animal we become animal, if we act like demon we become demon, if we act like human we remain human. It's your CHOICE we are not limited to the concept of "nature". Only those without the intellect to control their instinct are caged.

 

As for the argument of biology...it's seemingly a strong one for those who deny transcendentalism. Look at spiritual groups that require vegetarianism and look at their goals. We have Buddhism which does it for compassion, they seek enlightenment. We have the Essenes they seek to manifest "light bodies" or "heavenly bodies" and see the physical body as a shell that conforms to the will of their spirit (don't quote me on tht XP). We have the Jains who focus on "liberation" or enlightenment. We have the light and sound meditators who seek for liberation and enlightenment.... Starting to notice a pattern? They are all looking for liberation, to transcend the physical instead of being "trapped" or "controlled" by it. One of the results of enlightenment (as said my mnay people who are or claim to be enlightened) is that your physiology changes. All of the leaders of the L&S movement are vegans, eat very little, and yet are still radiantly healthy, Same with the essenes (although they allow raw milk), I can't say for buddhists because it seems to vary with the sect, they don't seem to develop much transcendentalism because they seem to focus on the awy of knowledge rather than actual practice of attaining abilities and changing their physiology. My final example will be the sungazing/breatharian accounts. Hira Ratan Manek (HRM) has been observed by scientists on 3 fasts two of which were over 200 days on nothing but water. He showed no signs of deterioration, no deficiencies, nothing. They later observed his brain and found his pineal gland was WAY larger than most peoples (maybe that has something to do with it). So I believe its in our ability to change ourselves to adapt to different lifestyles from "transcendental" practices. I think everyone is just addicted to comfort and will violently defend it

 

Metaldog- From Seeker's quote of you...I'm not talking about labels. Labels are useless. I call you this or that but reality is reality. I'm not talking about labels i'm talking about progress. I don't know why anyone here practices "spirituality" however most people seem to do it for some kind of recognition, identification or fortification of the "soul" or "spirit". Some people do it to change and live simple happy lives. Some people do it for liberation from the pathetic human condition. Either way in the traditions above if one eats meat it doesn't kill them but it slows their progress. One must meditate longer or practice something more to counteract the effect of it. Especially those that focus on love and compassion (all of the ones i've mentioned) will argue against killing sentient life because it feel emotion. So far I don't think plants feel emotions like fear, anger, pain, etc which is why I think they say if you have to eat, stick with plant food. The point is to reduce/eliminate suffering of all sentient beings and create a loving environment. Again you may say it's the "natural way of things" to be violent or kill. See my argument above. Natural is only wats happened most often or whats easiest, not whats ideal. We always have the ability to change.

 

....PHEW. aight, come at me

[Guest paul walter]

Hi Astral, Re: vegetarianism and spirituality.

 

 

Certainly a frightening reductionist way of seeing the world SFJane--can see why Dawkins is a fave? How long were you veg/vegan for? What was the diet for each roughly? Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

I'm quoting in agreement -- self-ascribing depth based on dietary choice is a self-congratulatory rationalization which, if taken seriously, requires the adherent to consume nothing but gravel & water.

 

Personally, I think my physiology suggests I'm an omnivore...

 

 

And if you did 'scientific' tests like the blood type or metabolic type tests and they found "you" were actually a vego in a meateater's mind would you fall on your sword? You don't seem to be able to be absolutely sure on that one :"personally" "think" "suggests"

[Guest paul walter]

One of the results of enlightenment (as said my mnay people who are or claim to be enlightened) is that your physiology changes.

 

 

Simply being vegetarian or vegan (and raw foods) changes the body and mind. Vegetarian food is known to enhance the 'higher' chakras (the ones white folks often have such trouble opening -mainly cause of bottom-heavy food intake?--meat, dairy, junk). Long term vegos digest,process, make use of and produce differently the nutritional requirements and all the rest of it that the rest of the populaton have taken for granted due to studies being done mostly on the poor dietary habits of meat eaters (or, what has become known as nutritional science). The work has just started and the results are akready very surprising. For example a long-term vego can often need less b12 than a meat eater (who is busy killing it through cooking meat and relying on that as the only source), produce their own better (especially if they don't put harmful chemicals into/on their body) and make use of/store it better. There is a perhaps 50% b12 deficiency rate in the meat-eating population.

 

Of course we all know the down side of vego's but that's most always only defined (at least on TTB) in the light of people endlessly harping on so that they don't have to face certain eating disorders they have (SAD) and need to change. There are starting to appear books on the subject that address both the 'science' and 'sppitir' of eating and that could be taken seriously and used as evidence now. Paul

 

p.s. 'Chakra Foods for Optimal Health' is another handy book on the subject (it includes animal foods)

Edited August 21, 2010 by paul walter

[Ramon25]

Simply being vegetarian or vegan (and raw foods) changes the body and mind. Vegetarian food is known to enhance the 'higher' chakras (the ones white folks often have such trouble opening -mainly cause of bottom-heavy food intake?--meat, dairy, junk). Long term vegos digest,process, make use of and produce differently the nutritional requirements and all the rest of it that the rest of the populaton have taken for granted due to studies being done mostly on the poor dietary habits of meat eaters (or, what has become known as nutritional science). The work has just started and the results are akready very surprising. For example a long-term vego can often need less b12 than a meat eater (who is busy killing it through cooking meat and relying on that as the only source), produce their own better (especially if they don't put harmful chemicals into/on their body) and make use of/store it better. There is a perhaps 50% b12 deficiency rate in the meat-eating population.

 

Of course we all know the down side of vego's but that's most always only defined (at least on TTB) in the light of people endlessly harping on so that they don't have to face certain eating disorders they have (SAD) and need to change. There are starting to appear books on the subject that address both the 'science' and 'sppitir' of eating and that could be taken seriously and used as evidence now. Paul

 

p.s. 'Chakra Foods for Optimal Health' is another handy book on the subject (it includes animal foods)

 

All our emotional gunk and insecurities, fearsect.. is stored in the lower chackra's for the most part, those need to be nurtured aswell. And Meat is the only real source of b12 anyways bessides vitamins. So what do you mean using meat as the ONLY source? Veganism is unnarural for humans at best. We do however live unnatural in many ways now, so its possible.

[Guest paul walter]

All our emotional gunk and insecurities, fearsect.. is stored in the lower chackra's for the most part, those need to be nurtured aswell. And Meat is the only real source of b12 anyways bessides vitamins. So what do you mean using meat as the ONLY source? Veganism is unnarural for humans at best. We do however live unnatural in many ways now, so its possible.

 

 

Hi Ramon. I think it's futile to define things as "natural" or not (in the sense of the only way to be) in a world such as this. Not just because so much is 'obviously' 'un'"natural" but also cause we are hardly in a position these days to know the "natural" foundations/potential of life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying 24/7 though .

 

I think the meat thing in this culture represents just what you alluded to--an overcompensation through too much meat eating for what is essentially an existential problem. In other words an eating dis-order. Well, meat isn't the only "real" source of b12- bee products, soil,certain forms of blue-green algae (maybe), self-production ideally. Most people who eat meat say b12 and protein are only found in meat (usually red meat too they seem to like to stress). According to taoists veganism is fine. I would only recommend it as a 'spiritual' practice, meaning if you are grounded, have gratitude for the earth (i.e. oneself as well) and have your priorities done. Of course the world doesn't allow for this but then one of us is gonna have to give in!.... .

My own vegan(ism?) eating comes out of what has been confirmed by taoist texts in that they state that when the body/mind evolves the diet evolves 'naturally' which of course makes complete sense no? It's like opening the chakras etc--you don't go on behaving like an ignorant arsehole in the world when your heart and brow chakra open does one ?. Paul.

Edited August 21, 2010 by paul walter

[metal dog]

There are some good points made here in favor of vegetarianism-veganism.

 

The B12 issue is one of them. Many meat eaters are deficient in B12, but that is because of how they consume their meat or other factors in the diet diminishing B12. And it is quite possible for someone with a balanced bowel and internal flora along with a strict healthy diet could be producing their own B12, but many vegetarians don't have such an internal milieu of perfection either.

 

We have to remember that smoking, alcohol and industrialized-refined and denatured foods are rampant and that can account for a host of problems that are part of the health equation. Hard to get a good picture of what is healthy when the numbers are tainted by the effects of pure poison.

 

I have pretty much made my argument that omnivorous animal food eating beings we are on a physical level and that our existence is indebted to this practice.

Structure determines function and the teeth and digestive tract are not carnivore and not herbivore, but omnivore.

I would agree with the 80%-20% consideration regarding diet...with 20% comprised of animal food as a general guideline and should you live in extreme northern climes with extended cold and darkness this 20% is essential to long-term health, the ability to have healthy offspring and their ability to develop. I also promote regular fasting and periods of abstaining, which most animal food eaters don't do...and their health may suffer as a result due to overconsumption and acidic buildup.

 

The structure and function of humans coupled with their traditions and history back up the consumption of animal foods. The -isms are a slim minority of people who have made choices, or one could say...impositions, upon themselves to do something other than eat all the kinds of food available to them.

 

Some do this for physical reasons. They say it is healthier. This is debatable and always will be and is not universal to all because of differences in individuals.

Some do this for energetic-vibratory reasons. They say it promotes higher vibrations and keeps lower vibrations out of their fields.

Some do this for spiritual reasons. Because their god told them to...or whatever.

 

And I don't have a problem with what people choose to do for their own reasons.

 

But to label those who eat food, including animal food, as being lower, inferior, killers, eaters of corpses, murderous, inhumane, or less- "anything" isn't taking into consideration the big picture or perspective.

 

I am not any less spiritual, energetic or healthy because of the food I choose to eat.

 

When making the jump from the obvious physical indicators supporting an omnivorous diet into the energetic or even spiritual, one must remain open and mutable to such discussions and concepts.

 

I would not dismiss these considerations and the benefits of the -isms. But most of the time the energetic or spiritual considerations are in the context of being in conflict, opposed to, at the expense of the physical considerations. I do find that this can be a hierarchical view rather than a holarchy and perhaps very much a carry over of the Hindu caste system's influence over vegetarianism or the edicts of religion. In many cases there has not been an evolution of spirit for on so many levels it is still contained and not holarchical. And holarchical would be careful to exclude anything or to demonize it without due and full consideration.

It is to my advantage to remain mutable in all things and bend like a reed in the wind.

 

It is here that I will make some further points on why I think animal foods may not be ideal in pursuit of fully experiencing or enhancing the physical or the supra-physical

Edited August 21, 2010 by metal dog

[Brian]

...

[SFJane]

SFJane- As for "nature" when we talk about nature being as "The nature of things", it's not quite as "set in stone" as you seem to imply. --"Nature" in that sense simply means what has been happening for the longest time and thus is the easiest thing to do. For example...You could look at the constant violence in human history, the wars, the crimes, etc and say that violence or killing is in our "nature'. Or you could look at meat eating in the past centuries and say since everyone is/was doing it then it must be our "nature".

 

Okay. So what?

 

Yes you must be honest about what IS but that doesn't not mean to have to be submissive and conform yourself to whatever is going on around you.

 

Lol! You don't know me very well if you think I am submissive and conformist to the things going on around me.

 

"The point is you have a choice. You're "Nature" is transient, meaning you're not set at one thing."

 

What does that have to do with the actual practice of sitting and meditating?

 

Also to give into "animal pleasure" is to forgo intellect and go back to instinct.

 

Sure, let's not masturbate because it feels good and animals do it. Let's not admit to ourselves how good it feels to take a dump or a huge piss. Let's tune out our stomach's euphoria when it upchucks something that was making it sick. Let's ignore the sublime pleasure feedback loop of dopamine and serotonin that evolution hardwired into us so that at least our bodies know when we are doing something right that benefits our survival. Going back to instinct is bad, mmkay.

 

"--We are human for a reason"

 

What is that reason?

"--it's because we have intellect"

 

Is this your reason for being human? Or does this statement set up your next point?

 

and we can define whats best for us and through communication and observation wats best for others too.

 

Interesting. Using your human intellect and formidable reasoning you can figure out whats best for you and using your ability to communicate via text or speech, you are empowered to tell me what is best for me. I see. You are not really interested in my own assessment of what is best for me then. Just on telling me what is best for all. Gotcha. Muslim extremist much?

 

If we are microcosms of the universe then we hold inside ourselves every aspect of being; animals, humans, demons, angels, enlightened masters, etc. The question is which one will you feed?

 

I have no idea what demons, angels or enlightened masters are. I've never seen, smelled, heard, touched or felt the energy emanations of any of them in person. You've totally lost me. Why should I be concerned with any of that?

"--And i don't just mean with food, it mean with thought, action, word, etc. We become what we imitate."

 

So, if I told you I've done a lot of chi gung, sitting, dissolving and practicing stillness, that should tell you—what?

 

If we do like buddha we become buddha, if we do like animal we become animal, if we act like demon we become demon, if we act like human we remain human. It's your CHOICE we are not limited to the concept of "nature". Only those without the intellect to control their instinct are caged.

 

I don't know how a Buddha should act. I am not a Buddhist. I am not remotely worried about acting like a Buddha. I have no idea what a demon is, never met or seen one. If you are right about the intellect controlling instincts though--I must be in terrible, terrible spiritual shape right now.

 

"--As for the argument of biology...it's seemingly a strong one for those who deny transcendentalism."

 

What the heck is transcendentalism? I don't even know what it is so I can't deny or affirm it.

 

Look at spiritual groups that require vegetarianism and look at their goals. We have Buddhism which does it for compassion, they seek enlightenment. We have the Essenes they seek to manifest "light bodies" or "heavenly bodies" and see the physical body as a shell that conforms to the will of their spirit (don't quote me on tht XP). We have the Jains who focus on "liberation" or enlightenment. We have the light and sound meditators who seek for liberation and enlightenment.... Starting to notice a pattern?

 

Well, now that you mention it. Yes—yes I am.

 

They are all looking for liberation, to transcend the physical instead of being "trapped" or "controlled" by it. One of the results of enlightenment (as said my mnay people who are or claim to be enlightened) is that your physiology changes. All of the leaders of the L&S movement are vegans, eat very little, and yet are still radiantly healthy, Same with the essenes (although they allow raw milk), I can't say for buddhists because it seems to vary with the sect, they don't seem to develop much transcendentalism because they seem to focus on the awy of knowledge rather than actual practice of attaining abilities and changing their physiology.

 

You do seem awfully concerned with the finer details of the spiritual practices that others are doing.

"--My final example will be the sungazing/breatharian accounts. Hira Ratan Manek (HRM) has been observed by scientists on 3 fasts two of which were over 200 days on nothing but water. He showed no signs of deterioration, no deficiencies, nothing. They later observed his brain and found his pineal gland was WAY larger than most peoples (maybe that has something to do with it)."

 

What does Hira Ratan and his pineal gland have to with vegetarianism? Is this a red herring or what? We were talking about vegetarianism, not sungazing or breatharians.

 

So I believe its in our ability to change ourselves to adapt to different lifestyles from "transcendental" practices.

 

It sounds to me like you are awfully concerned about whose spiritual traditions and tenets you should be following in order to reach 'transcendence' (whatever the frak that means). Do you think you get +1 spirituality points by following such codes or ideals? +1 for each point you can regurgitate to others?

 

I think everyone is just addicted to comfort and will violently defend it

 

Sweeping, all-inclusive judgments imposed on others is always a good thing because it furthers two-way communication and an even-handed exchange of ideas. What comfort are you talking about? Are you implying by this that vegetarianism is 'uncomfortable'--while omnivorism is 'comfortable'? If not, then what is 'comfort' by your frame of reference?

Edited August 21, 2010 by SFJane

[Ya Mu]

[SFJane]

Jane,

How could you possibly think and say this type of sacrilege. You do realize that the spiritual circles could wish to burn you at stake for spouting all the this NONSENSE that everyone KNOWS is not true. You cannot possibly contact the higher realms if you are a meat eater per all the people that say so. I can point you to at least 100 sites that will put you in your place for sure.

 

And I SO agree with you!

 

I don't eat cow because to me it is terrible. But if I liked it I would eat it.

 

This whole thing breaks down into a person's metabolism. SOME people do quite well with eating only vegetables. Some people can't do it without being anemic. Can't tell you how many of these folks I have seen in clinic.

 

I think in general a statement that says the western world has way too much meat in it's diet and needs to add much more balanced vegetables would be a true statement. But some people do not do well with meatless. Regardless of all the theories. I am one of them. I eat MOSTLY vegetarian.

 

I don't eat cow either. My inner-amoebanature has informed me that I just don't like how it makes me feel. And I don't like it's weight in my intestines. Seafood, though, I'll bite your head off if you get between me and my squid tentacles, clams, and salmon.

 

It's not like all I eat ever is seafood and the occasional turkey or duck. I eat vegetarian about 75% of the time? Roughly. I am all about juicing or total fasting for long meditation sits. But other than that--I listen to the amoeba, not the head, for guidance on what the body needs.

 

And yes, I know that the 9000 transcendent dimensions are denied to me. Ah well. Worse things can happen in a person's life. I am sure I've been burned at the stake a few times in lives past for my heresies then too.

Edited August 21, 2010 by SFJane

[Ramon25]

Hi Astral, Re: vegetarianism and spirituality.

 

What I am about to say, may piss some people off. My intention by posting this is not to get some feel good group-love from spreading any specific kind of groupthink around. My intention is to share some observations and thoughts I've picked up during my own cultivation and spiritual quests.

 

I, personally, think that vegetarianism does not equate or have anything to do with spirituality. Not in the least. Spirituality and vegetarianism are concepts that only a highly advanced frontal lobe wielding vertebrate like a human could come up with and dwell on.

 

I think that the idea of vegetarianism being useful (or not) in spirituality is an absolute exercise in mental masturbation. The reason is, only a modern-day human can afford the luxury of moral codes, ethics and philosophy. None of which, jives with the active functioning of the real world happening all around them. Its like, almost deliberate or disingenuous denial of the obvious. And any Taoist who prides themselves on their observation skills of –what is-- really happening in this world would probably agree somewhat with my assessment after some consideration,

 

Have you ever read Dawkins 'The Ancestors Tale'? All of life is in a perpetual struggle for energy. Everything eats to survive. Save for plants that live of off photosynthesis or gas and nutrient exchanges like deep ocean ecosystems.

 

In short: Evolution started with an amoeba. That amoeba had to eat. It found another amoebae and ate it. It ate it and gained energy in the eating, and it grew. Everything after that is history.

 

Only a humans moral frontal lobe could deny the fact of bloody energy devouring as a way of life or imagine that there some kind of sapient value, like 'good' or 'bad' or 'low vibrational' or 'immoral' could possibly be attached to what simply IS the natural way of things.

 

Evolution, ie Nature ie Tao and the ten thousand manifestations that come from the Tao, endowed all living breathing creatures with the need to feed. To secure food, life evolved heat sensors, poison sacks, retractable claws, night vision, increased hearing, ampullae of Lorenzini, projectile digestive acid, serrated teeth, neurotoxic venom, sticky webs, electrical discharges, bioluminescence, grasping tentacles, camouflage, burst sprinting, ambush strategy, delicate nostrils, deep diving ability and echolocation, stinging cells, pack mentality, blood-lust, feeding frenzy—its all part of 'God's' plan or else it wouldn't be here.

 

Nature is not self-conscious of its own criminal and 'unenlightened' nature. And it doesn't remotely give a shit. And when a female Orca kills a false pilot whale or a lioness kills a cheetah to reduce food competition, or a praying mantis eats her mate, this is not murder but nature.

 

No animal grapples with morality as it rips apart its prey, breaks it neck, laps its blood off its paws, cracks its marrow in its teeth. It's normal. Natural. Good or bad can not factor into it, anymore than a black hole is good or bad. It simply is the way it is. We humans, we get stabilized in life, we get Maslow's hierarchy of needs down. We have an abundant and varied food source and we start working on self-actualization needs.

 

One day we are reading philosophy books about the nature of right action and suddenly we are burdened with a consciousness about what we eat? WTF is that? Logic bomb. Must be nice to not live in a crop destroyed area where the berries and fruits got blighted and there's nothing left but hunting and fishing until next sowing season.

 

While you are eating your vegeburger and marmalade toast, keep your eye out for a jumping spider sitting at the edge of your table happily slurping the dissolved contents of the prey bug that it stalked and ambushed to keep its energy going. The spider has no spiritual dissonance. No cognitive dissonance, It never struggles with the spirituality of consumption. It does what its supposed to do and lives in harmony with the Tao because of it.

 

I've done the vegan and vegetarian thing. It's nice sometimes, for a few days--but permanent vegetarianism isn't for me. If you are going to eat, eat what feels good. Learn what feels good by listening to your own amoeba-nature. If you are going to eat meat, love it. Give in to the animal pleasure of it. Lick the fat from your fingers. Enjoy it for you are simply being Human. Don't let your head and those pesky over-active frontal lobes get in the way of your belly. Cultivation is done with the mind. Digestion--by the gut.

 

Best resonse yet! jane to be honest you can keep trying to point this out but The People who dont get it wont. This guys reponse show exactly the the tye of attitude i have been talking about for a while. A denial of the physical. Control instincts and transcend ect. proof is in the pudding. If this is line with his spiritual beleifs, then that is good but is an unbalanced view, not an intergrated view, like the one you have. Not every sritual tradiditon seeks to intergrate. Which s where alot of the real work is waiting to be sone. So the people who are vegatarians and think they are being spiritual, WILL defend that violently and often do. Also why is comfort somehow looked down upon, its what all things seek, if meat makes you comfortable then... Dude, I mean no disrepsect paul but to call meat eating a eating disorder is the most ludacris shit ive ever heard. I wonder O I wonder what every culture round the world must have did to get b12 if they werent consuming bee pollen, eating dirt or obviosly their own shit, because the b12 in produced by our gut does not effectivley make it into the blood. Oh wait I know they were eating blue green alge I Guess that what we were all eating when we were evolving these big brains, dumb scientist they think the large brain size came from meat eating. Oh b12 deficiency has nothing to say about the value of getting it from meat. The digestion of b12 is based on something called intrinsic factor and is one of the hardest nutrients to digest, because intrinsic factor is related to many things in your life having nothing to do with meat or veggies, stress reduces it big time. OH by the WAY long term vegatarians are deficient in b12 aswell so thats not a good argument. I would venture out to say that MOST (not all) vegans, and raw foodist have the eating disorders. They are denying what humans have been doing sense humans are humans. If you eat vegatarian simply because it feels better energetically and did not do it for philospohical purposes then, you can claim your body did it natrually.

 

Love and respect to all those in the debate

Edited August 21, 2010 by Ramon25

[Sunya]

My inner-amoebanature has informed me that I just don't like how it makes me feel. But other than that--I listen to the amoeba, not the head, for guidance on what the body needs.

 

 

How to listen to the inner amoeba nature? Would love to learn.. I feel hunger in my stomach as sensations of cramping/discomfort.. then the mind thinks of how to quell those sensations and desire kicks in. Didn't know there was a better way

[SFJane]

How to listen to the inner amoeba nature? Would love to learn.. I feel hunger in my stomach as sensations of cramping/discomfort.. then the mind thinks of how to quell those sensations and desire kicks in. Didn't know there was a better way

 

Did you read my post: "I, Ship" ? That's me listening to the data streams from my amoeba-nature.

 

Your amoeba, your ship, is always always always streaming data at you to listen to. It never stops until your body dies.

Edited August 21, 2010 by SFJane

[SFJane]

Certainly a frightening reductionist way of seeing the world SFJane--can see why Dawkins is a fave? How long were you veg/vegan for? What was the diet for each roughly? Paul.

 

Frightening? To you? Certainly not to me. Are we talking about me, or Dawkins? Are you asking me if I see why Dawkins is a fave? Because if you want to start another thread about RD's 'The Ancestor's Tale,' I'll listen to what you have to say.

 

 

How long were you veg/vegan for? What was the diet for each roughly? Paul.

 

Long enough. So long in fact, that it would take at least a 10,000 word post just to begin to describe the nuances of my self-experiments with diets, fasting, etc etc. The tests I ran on myself. One food, one beverage, one chemical or vitamin at a time. My testing has been exhaustive. That's part of what led to my current position.

 

And if you did 'scientific' tests like the blood type or metabolic type tests and they found "you" were actually a vego in a meateater's mind would you fall on your sword?

 

I know you aimed that at Ramon, but I think it's fair game to comment on.I would love to get 'scientific' proof of my metabolic type. Do you have a link to these tests or was that hypothetical? I am interested in any test that actually proves someone is a truly a vego. One would think that the body would try to communicate its dislike of meat in some way to the meat-eating persons mind. Do you suppose the same test or similar one would prove that some vego minded people are living in meateater bodies? That would be lulzy. I would have sooo much fun popping people's bubbles with a test like that. /evilgrin

 

I happen to have learned from doing a lot of reading and research, that evolution made our digestive systems most like rats, pigs and primates. Midden remains, decomposing food, roots and grubs, termites and bananas. Our bodies are designed to handle and efficiently process food-of-opportunity that we encounter, just a like pigs, rats and primates. It's genius really. It's what allowed the Eurasian coastal crawlers to go into Kamchatka, come over the Bering Strait, down the West American Coast, become 'Clovis' people and shoot down mammoths and bison with arrows made from chipped stone and bone before they became Cherokees and Navajos and Mayans and started agriculture to supplement hunting and gathering.

 

Simply being vegetarian or vegan (and raw foods) changes the body and mind. Vegetarian food is known to enhance the 'higher' chakras

 

Proof please? Saying it is so—does not make it so.

 

I think it's futile to define things as "natural" or not (in the sense of the only way to be) in a world such as this. Not just because so much is 'obviously' 'un'"natural" but also cause we are hardly in a position these days to know the "natural" foundations/potential of life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying 24/7 though

 

Do you practice meditation in a humanities 101 classroom or political ashram Paul? Because I did my meditation—literally--sitting by the edge of the American River in Sacramento. Something about using Taoism, to see things as they are—not as things 'should be'—allowed me to appreciate the 'manifestations' happening around me. Like the salmon breaching the river to eat a bug, the red-shouldered hawk seizing a field vole on the wing, the blacktailed deer eating tree leaves.

 

Is the hawk and fish screwed for eternity because they can't see their base nature, realize the error of their ways and evolve? The deer and the vole get a free, all-access pass to transcendence by evolutionary design? Or is it only a human being, saddled with an overactive frontal lobe, that is tasked with (more like burdened with) a need to spiritually ascend and transcend?

 

What's up with that? Hey! Universe! I have a beef to pick with you!

 

Frankly, insects and animals may have the better end of the deal by not having an advanced frontal lobe. They have no idea how much cognitive and spiritual dissonance they are not experiencing just by trying to appease biological energy requirements.

 

 

I think the meat thing in this culture represents just what you alluded to--an overcompensation through too much meat eating for what is essentially an existential problem. In other words an eating dis-order. Well, meat isn't the only "real" source of b12- bee products, soil,certain forms of blue-green algae (maybe), self-production ideally. Most people who eat meat say b12 and protein are only found in meat (usually red meat too they seem to like to stress). According to taoists veganism is fine. I would only recommend it as a 'spiritual' practice, meaning if you are grounded, have gratitude for the earth (i.e. oneself as well) and have your priorities done. Of course the world doesn't allow for this but then one of us is gonna have to give in!.... .

 

Did someone (intentionally?) miss my entire point about being a post-Industrial human, achieving the first two tiers of Maslow's Hierarchy--having food safety and variety--and the attending luxury time to impose judgments on others dietary choices (that would be tiers 3 and 4 in the Hierarchy)?

 

Only a modern-day human can afford the luxury of moral codes, ethics and philosophy. None of which, jives with the active functioning of the real world happening all around them....We humans, we get stabilized in life, we get Maslow's hierarchy of needs down. We have an abundant and varied food source and we start working on self-actualization needs. One day we are reading philosophy books about the nature of right action and suddenly we are burdened with a consciousness about what we eat?...Must be nice to not live in a crop destroyed area where the berries and fruits got blighted and there's nothing left but hunting and fishing until next sowing season.

Edited August 21, 2010 by SFJane

[SFJane]

My own vegan(ism?) eating comes out of what has been confirmed by taoist texts in that they state that when the body/mind evolves the diet evolves 'naturally' which of course makes complete sense no? It's like opening the chakras etc--you don't go on behaving like an ignorant arsehole in the world when your heart and brow chakra open does one

 

It's all about cultivating moral correctness and collecting bonus +1 spirituality points to club over other people's head with isn't it? Self-congratulatory pride. That is what you are cultivating in your heart-mind. Your words indicate that you are not cultivating stillness or magnanimity, inclusion or acceptance.

 

Edited for earlier silliness.

Edited August 22, 2010 by SFJane

[~jK~]

Hey all,

Vegetarianism seems to be a common "requisite" for many spiritual traditions. Certain Buddhists, the Essenes, Hinduism, Certain Yogis, holders of the Light and Sound Meditation, etc. I was just reading this article...

 

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/essays/veg.asp

 

...which makes a few interesting points about spiritual life in general. Thought it'd be fun to share. Love to hear sum opinions on this since it's still a rather controversial topic.

 

-Astral

 

Diet is one of the steps toward the return to our normal nature.

The more we return to nature, the more that we are able to perform naturaly.

There are reasons the ancients would live in the forrest, on mountains, as hermits.

 

I suggest to begin here: http://www.rawfoods.com/

[Mokona]

When my energy was strongest and most noticable I was on a diet of my mothers homecooked meals and everychance I got I stuffed myself with Stuffed crust Pizza.

 

During this time, even the teachers at my high school jumped when I walked by them. only one ever stopped me to ask what the feeling was. I also serviced myself as often as I wanted, was a computer geek and a book nerd. I just happened to meditate alot and breath as to pull in energy during my walks to work and back home, I meditated on my futon at least once a day - and worked on various techniques shown to me by a friend and practiced building energy between my hands.

The only difference I can think of is that enough meat (like anything else) made it too hard to meditate becuase my stomach was spending so much energy in digestion.

 

I really think that it comes down to a persons natural tendency towards certain foods, and the amount that they bother to do actual practice.

 

Edit:

 

Astral,

 

The human condition is not pathetic.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Mokona

[Astral_Anima]

[Astral_Anima]

And for everyone's information "SAD" is an acronym for "Standard American Diet" It's used alot in the alternative med world. Just thought i'd clarify that so certain people don't interpret it incorrectly *cough* *cough* JANE *cough*, lol.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Astral_Anima