Surely I'm not enlightened..

[It's a trap]

I have searched for what it means to be enlightened around tons of other forums, and have tried to find if anyone else has had an experience similar to mine, but so far I haven't found anyone yet. I have only recently started studying Taoism, but based on an experience I recently had, I have to ask whether or not I have attained enlightenment. I don't know whether or not other members are against the use of marijuana, but my experience has something to do with it, so don't read on if it will somehow offend you: The last city I lived in was not a place I really liked, and I didn't meet many people, but the couple of friends I did have were very fun to be around. We liked to sit around on the weekends and casually smoke weed, but while they seemed to just laugh a lot and watch movies, I was having a completely different effect. I was experiencing these sudden realizations about my existence and life and nature and they were coming so fast that I couldn't explain them in any way. I would try to tell my friends but they all just kind of laughed at me and told me I was high. Obviously I was, and obviously the drug was contributing to the way I was thinking, but it's not like I was having these mindless, irrational thoughts. They were about how connected every single thing is, and about how everyone is everyone, yet no one is no one; how a serious situations aren't serious until they actually happen to you; about how insignificant, meaningless, and small we are, even though most of us never look beyond us, the human race, or question what goes on. How I am a tiny space on a never ending timeline, and how there is no true good or evil, because who's to say what's what? And that was the best way I could explain it, so when my friends didn't understand or take me seriously, I was sad; not because they weren't taking me seriously, but because they were being guided like sheep without even knowing. These thoughts ate at me until one day while sitting in class, I had what I would describe as an epiphany. It was like everything in the world became so obvious and clear out of nowhere. It was like someone had taken off some sort of goggles I had been wearing and I could see everything for how it really was. I began to see how sad it was that people were so obsessed with their clothing brands, how they looked, how others looked, how popular or successful they were, and it was at that moment that all the people in my life that had previously upset me by putting me down and making fun of me, no longer affected me. It was like, no matter what, I couldn't be saddened or angered. At that moment, I felt a wave of happiness go through me, and I was almost brought to tears by how clear everything had become. After that day, I quit trying to answer all the questions in class, stopped engaging in meaningless arguments, and began to accept all points of view from all people. (I still didn't even explain all of the revelations I experienced here, but I can't find a way to describe them) Now, fast forward three or four months, and I've started to study Taoism and read the Tao Te Ching, and everything that I felt and was realizing earlier was put into words in this book. But here is the true point of this whole post: How could I, without any idea of the Tao, have reached enlightenment? Especially while people go there whole lives trying to attain it. It just doesn't seem to make sense. Thank you, if you were able to read through the lengthy post. I also apologize for my typing, I've been up for a while now and am a bit tired.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I read about 4 sentences, and didn't need to finish. You're not enlightened. Let it go, it's a trap, 'It's a Trap'...now I'll go read the rest of it for the entertainment value. Jeez, don't try acid, or you'll start thinking you're God.

 

By the way, any one who starts off 'maybe I'm enlightened', even without the weed, is not.

 

Jeez, man...you're going to get ribbed for this post... but you're just attained the first wonderful steps on the spiritual path...welcome aboard!

Edited August 19, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[voidisyinyang]

I have searched for what it means to be enlightened around tons of other forums, and have tried to find if anyone else has had an experience similar to mine, but so far I haven't found anyone yet. I have only recently started studying Taoism, but based on an experience I recently had, I have to ask whether or not I have attained enlightenment. I don't know whether or not other members are against the use of marijuana, but my experience has something to do with it, so don't read on if it will somehow offend you: The last city I lived in was not a place I really liked, and I didn't meet many people, but the couple of friends I did have were very fun to be around. We liked to sit around on the weekends and casually smoke weed, but while they seemed to just laugh a lot and watch movies, I was having a completely different effect. I was experiencing these sudden realizations about my existence and life and nature and they were coming so fast that I couldn't explain them in any way. I would try to tell my friends but they all just kind of laughed at me and told me I was high. Obviously I was, and obviously the drug was contributing to the way I was thinking, but it's not like I was having these mindless, irrational thoughts. They were about how connected every single thing is, and about how everyone is everyone, yet no one is no one; how a serious situations aren't serious until they actually happen to you; about how insignificant, meaningless, and small we are, even though most of us never look beyond us, the human race, or question what goes on. How I am a tiny space on a never ending timeline, and how there is no true good or evil, because who's to say what's what? And that was the best way I could explain it, so when my friends didn't understand or take me seriously, I was sad; not because they weren't taking me seriously, but because they were being guided like sheep without even knowing. These thoughts ate at me until one day while sitting in class, I had what I would describe as an epiphany. It was like everything in the world became so obvious and clear out of nowhere. It was like someone had taken off some sort of goggles I had been wearing and I could see everything for how it really was. I began to see how sad it was that people were so obsessed with their clothing brands, how they looked, how others looked, how popular or successful they were, and it was at that moment that all the people in my life that had previously upset me by putting me down and making fun of me, no longer affected me. It was like, no matter what, I couldn't be saddened or angered. At that moment, I felt a wave of happiness go through me, and I was almost brought to tears by how clear everything had become. After that day, I quit trying to answer all the questions in class, stopped engaging in meaningless arguments, and began to accept all points of view from all people. (I still didn't even explain all of the revelations I experienced here, but I can't find a way to describe them) Now, fast forward three or four months, and I've started to study Taoism and read the Tao Te Ching, and everything that I felt and was realizing earlier was put into words in this book. But here is the true point of this whole post: How could I, without any idea of the Tao, have reached enlightenment? Especially while people go there whole lives trying to attain it. It just doesn't seem to make sense. Thank you, if you were able to read through the lengthy post. I also apologize for my typing, I've been up for a while now and am a bit tired.

 

There's various levels of enlightenment experiences -- so sounds like you had one minor type of enlightenment. Psychoactive drugs along with meditation can have minor enlightenment experiences -- of course most people claiming to be religious will go against psychoactive drugs, especially because of Western puritan traditions.

 

Here watch this video to get a quick dose of a Taoist energy master so you can compare it with your pot smoking meditation:

 

[TheWhiteRabbit]

You seriously want to know?

Its like being schitzophrenic... ONLY you are not open all the time, and your heart energy is balanced so that you dont become delusional.

 

So the differences between schitzo and enlightenment are:

1. Due to thinking/practices or beliefs causing one to be open to various spiritual phenomena all the time. (might be the same)

2. Unbalanced heart energy

3. Leading to delusion.

 

Delusions as an example would be delirium, paranoia and would encompass most of a persons doings in their life.

Edited August 19, 2010 by TheWhiteRabbit

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

There's various levels of enlightenment experiences -- so sounds like you had one minor type of enlightenment. Psychoactive drugs along with meditation can have minor enlightenment experiences -- of course most people claiming to be religious will go against psychoactive drugs, especially because of Western puritan traditions.

 

Here watch this video to get a quick dose of a Taoist energy master so you can compare it with your pot smoking meditation:

 

 

 

Mastery of energy does not equal enlightenment. I don't consider John Chang "enlightened".

[SFJane]

Mastery of energy does not equal enlightenment. I don't consider John Chang "enlightened".

 

 

Well said.

 

Showing of powers as evidence of enlightenment is kind of like saying "And now for a demonstration of my healing abilities, I will break this board."

Edited August 19, 2010 by SFJane

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

don't try acid, or you'll start thinking you're God.

 

 

You must have tried different acid to me, I thought I was a banana.

 

 

As to the O.P, "What they said!".

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Mattimo]

It's a trap, while although you may find it extremely difficult to believe, I have indeed experienced something VERY similar. I am not trying to take away from the profundity of your experience, but what you describe is commonly uncommon. What I mean by that is common for people who have been initiated on the path, so to speak; and uncommon for the still common human, grossly immersed in the world at large. I was quite young when I experienced similar revelations, much like you I would imagine. How old are you by the way, 16-18? I urge you to be extremely cautious and let me say unequivocally that marijuana IS dangerous - even despite your discoveries. You see, one thought leads to the next thought which leads to the next thought with such ease and speed that you can arrive at a conclusion that is completely ungrounded and quite possibly insane or irrational. Moreover, the reality is that there would be no convincing you otherwise because what you experience would seem so profound and it is indeed profound in a manner of speaking. However, how can you be certain you are remaining grounded? Don't get me wrong, what you mentioned above is very lucid, sane, important and transformational. However, pursuing enlightenment through THINKING, especially in altered states, can lead to insanity. Let me ask you this, what IS enlightenment? You have asked the question and are using your revelations which have been produced by your THINKING/THOUGHT. To reiterate, you have thought a lot and have thought to ask the question: am I enlightened?

 

Drop the thinking, focus on your breath, meditate.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I remember back some years when I got clean of pot smoking, I remember people always saying it makes boring things more fun.

 

Why? It reduces your ability to analyze things. THC interferes with your ability to do so.

 

In enlightenment it is the same thing, only we dont want to do the pot thing. That coupled with certain beliefs tends to lead to the phenomena mostly seen accompanying enlightenment. Its very similar to some beliefs that spiritualists, trance channelers have or even some schitzophrenics that have not become delusional.

[C T]

According to mystics of all traditions one of the most significant yardstick for the enlightenment experience (nothing more than a slightly more intense feeling of spaciousness, or weightlessness, much like the same feeling as when one is almost reaching a physical orgasm, although not exactly the same), is the spontaneous arising of a massive dose of compassion.

 

An accepted measurement of one's compassion is the feeling that others are equally as important, if not more important, than oneself.

 

The next time you get high, just bring your attention to all the misery that exists in our present quantum, and remain in this space if you can. If, while in this mode, tears of sadness begin to flow, then you would have a taste of what real 'enlightenment' is. (A good visualization is the present plight of the Pakistani people.)

 

Hopefully, when the experience wears off, you realize you want to dedicate a part of your life to touching others' lives with joy and happiness, and by so doing, even if one person can have their misery alleviated as a direct result of your compassionate action, no matter how trivial others might think it was, then you are on the first step of the 'enlightenment' ladder.

 

At the very least, your 'trip' would have yielded some positive outcome. Otherwise you will never be able to cease feeling that its all a trap. I hope one day you will realize its not just about the feelings, its also about what you do with them that adds meaning to the experience.

 

 

 

 

 

(ps - what Matt said... wise words to take heed)

Edited August 19, 2010 by CowTao

[King Kabalabhati]

Cannabis will trigger some things. It does not mean these things would not come to you without that trigger, but it might take another kind of powerful experience. For some people the weed comes at a bad time, or they can not drop it when needed. If you have emotional issues, I recommend to deal with them with as much clarity as possible, this means no smoking till you feel grounded and clear and there's no depression or aggressiveness in your daily life. Taoist exercices and time can help you deal with emotional problems and crisises. Even when you feel you're stable enough it's better to keep the habit in check, maybe smoking once or twice once a month if at all.

 

Most schools of meditation I've heard about seem to agree that if a more advanced meditation/Chi work is your goal then cannabis is not a good idea.

Edited August 19, 2010 by King Kabalabhati

[It's a trap]

It's a trap, while although you may find it extremely difficult to believe, I have indeed experienced something VERY similar. I am not trying to take away from the profundity of your experience, but what you describe is commonly uncommon. What I mean by that is common for people who have been initiated on the path, so to speak; and uncommon for the still common human, grossly immersed in the world at large. I was quite young when I experienced similar revelations, much like you I would imagine. How old are you by the way, 16-18? I urge you to be extremely cautious and let me say unequivocally that marijuana IS dangerous - even despite your discoveries. You see, one thought leads to the next thought which leads to the next thought with such ease and speed that you can arrive at a conclusion that is completely ungrounded and quite possibly insane or irrational. Moreover, the reality is that there would be no convincing you otherwise because what you experience would seem so profound and it is indeed profound in a manner of speaking. However, how can you be certain you are remaining grounded? Don't get me wrong, what you mentioned above is very lucid, sane, important and transformational. However, pursuing enlightenment through THINKING, especially in altered states, can lead to insanity. Let me ask you this, what IS enlightenment? You have asked the question and are using your revelations which have been produced by your THINKING/THOUGHT. To reiterate, you have thought a lot and have thought to ask the question: am I enlightened?

 

Drop the thinking, focus on your breath, meditate.

 

Oh no, I'm not taking my experience as something I'm proud of or that I'd even defend. I think a lot of you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I am trying to say, minus the experience and details, and what I should have posted in the first place, is that I understand/fully grasp most, (if not all) concepts I've been told I have to understand in order to know the Tao. The concepts I am reading are not new to me, they're things I have often thought about before. Basically, I feel like I can see myself like someone would a complete stranger. If someone insults that stranger, you don't care, it wasn't you, and you probably doubt the stranger should care either. You also don't care about the stranger. He is a tiny insignificant part of your life, a flash that you most likely will never see again. I am by no means claiming to be enlightened, which is why the title of this post is "Surely I'm not enlightened.." I was probably just overwhelmed with all these newfound ideas when they began to come to me, so it felt like something big in comparison. Sorry!

 

Okay, basically this is more of a "Where do I stand right now and am I on the right path" question, not an "Am I enlightened" question. I'm looking at the original post and wondering why I wrote this the way I did. Like I said, I'd been up for a long time when I wrote this, and I tend to ramble and have trouble expressing myself when I'm really tired, like I assume most others do.

Edited August 19, 2010 by It's a trap

[Makyea]

Oh no, I'm not taking my experience as something I'm proud of or that I'd even defend. I think a lot of you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I am trying to say, minus the experience and details, and what I should have posted in the first place, is that I understand/fully grasp most, (if not all) concepts I've been told I have to understand in order to know the Tao. The concepts I am reading are not new to me, they're things I have often thought about before. Basically, I feel like I can see myself like someone would a complete stranger. If someone insults that stranger, you don't care, it wasn't you, and you probably doubt the stranger should care either. You also don't care about the stranger. He is a tiny insignificant part of your life, a flash that you most likely will never see again. I am by no means claiming to be enlightened, which is why the title of this post is "Surely I'm not enlightened.." I was probably just overwhelmed with all these newfound ideas when they began to come to me, so it felt like something big in comparison. Sorry!

I understand how you feel. I believe that what happened to you was more like the shades on your window coming up rather than the door actually opening. Once you open that door you will understand the things in those books and that the people on here say with an even deeper understanding and you won't have to ask. But I believe someone on here told me once not to work towards enlightenment, it will come when you put that aside and let go. Well as someone who doesn't know much thats the best I can do and it is my opinion I hope it did benefit you in some way.

[Marblehead]

I read about 4 sentences, and didn't need to finish. You're not enlightened. Let it go, it's a trap, 'It's a Trap'...now I'll go read the rest of it for the entertainment value. Jeez, don't try acid, or you'll start thinking you're God.

 

By the way, any one who starts off 'maybe I'm enlightened', even without the weed, is not.

 

Jeez, man...you're going to get ribbed for this post... but you're just attained the first wonderful steps on the spiritual path...welcome aboard!

 

I agree.

 

Don't kid yourself.

 

Peace & Love!

[It's a trap]

I don't smoke anymore, but animals take part in drug use in the wild as well. Reindeer in Lapland are know to eat a native psychedelic mushroom and afterwards, prance around seeing who knows what. But since using drugs is technically natural, doesn't it go with the flow?

Edited August 19, 2010 by It's a trap

[King Kabalabhati]

I don't smoke anymore, but wild animals take part in drug use in the wild as well. Reindeer in Lapland are know to eat a native psychedelic mushroom and afterwards, prance around seeing who knows what. But since using drugs is technically natural, doesn't it go with the flow?

 

It's foolish to let any herb fuck up your daily meditation, whether you use it or not!

Edited August 19, 2010 by King Kabalabhati

[Makyea]

I don't smoke anymore, but wild animals take part in drug use in the wild as well. Reindeer in Lapland are know to eat a native psychedelic mushroom and afterwards, prance around seeing who knows what. But since using drugs is technically natural, doesn't it go with the flow?

I think the point is that you can't really reach full potential if you need the aid of things that even though they seem to make it easier to get to a higher place actually are restricting your abilities to mentally comprehend things. As a non drug user but having many friends who are I have seen them taken from being highly intelligent to being not the brightest to put it nicely. It really stops you from seeing and understanding these deep concepts you are reading. I would if I were you if you want to really do this continue to stay off the drugs and see how that treats you physically and mentally. In the end your spiritual path is up to you.

[Marblehead]

I think the point is that you can't really reach full potential if you need the aid of things that even though they seem to make it easier to get to a higher place actually are restricting your abilities to mentally comprehend things. As a non drug user but having many friends who are I have seen them taken from being highly intelligent to being not the brightest to put it nicely. It really stops you from seeing and understanding these deep concepts you are reading. I would if I were you if you want to really do this continue to stay off the drugs and see how that treats you physically and mentally. In the end your spiritual path is up to you.

 

 

Excellent post and advise.

 

Peace & Love!

[Makyea]

I think the point is that you can't really reach full potential if you need the aid of things that even though they seem to make it easier to get to a higher place actually are restricting your abilities to mentally comprehend things. As a non drug user but having many friends who are I have seen them taken from being highly intelligent to being not the brightest to put it nicely. It really stops you from seeing and understanding these deep concepts you are reading. I would if I were you if you want to really do this continue to stay off the drugs and see how that treats you physically and mentally. In the end your spiritual path is up to you.

Also I forgot to mention that some animals also beat each other with their own skulls just for the right to sleep in a certain spot. Just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it is good for you.

[metal dog]

I believe I had read in one of Mantak Chia's books about Taoists having used drugs and elixirs to help in achieving "enlightenment". And there is a vast history of mushroom cults and use of drugs even in what one could consider a positive way. But that some who considered necessity of using substances decided that these substances had limitations (which perhaps an enlightened consciousness, or one seeking enlightenment should not have any hinderances due to dependence on externals) in that they would not always be readily available whenever needed, nor dosages consistent, side effects, and a few other unpredictable and uncontrollable factors. And thus a non-drug-dependent path may be the way to go.

 

And this consideration I have personally adopted.

 

But I will also admit that my use of marijuana in earlier years did provide me a way to look upon the world differently that did make a significant change in my life. But after a short while, its use muddies the auric field (I always actually see dark green clouds around the head of users) and slows its vibrations down. It causes a diuretic effect (dry or cotton mouth), also significantly impacts insulin/blood sugar (which is why you get the munchies), creates and extreme acidic ph reaction in the body (which can open one up to more yin illness) and affects the adrenal glands which can be wholly counterproductive with internal energy practice.

Edited August 19, 2010 by metal dog

[C T]

Another point to consider:

 

There are a number of fairly stable enlightened individuals, of whom i know one or two, who can verify that the concept of enlightenment actually goes far beyond any thing one can 'do'. The idea is to let go of all value judgements: this is good/that is bad sort of mentality.

 

If you want to bend the mind with substances, then do it, and measure the sustainability/stability of the experience, see into the experience deeply, and then transcend that. The same goes for those who suggest otherwise... look into the soberness, really be one with it, and then go past that looking, past even the oneness feeling of it. See what lies beyond. Doing/not doing the drug thing.. These calls are measurements of self-impositions. The problem is we tend not to see the restrictiveness of either stance - both are limiting ultimately, because both have a self as a reference point. According to the accepted notions surrounding 'enlightenment', it is said that in that state, the sense of small self is completely dissolved, and then what takes its place is a sense of what they call a 'Big Self', that aspect of self that is completely impersonal, or transpersonal.

 

There is a point where all experiences, which are fleeting and transitory, will plateau out. Once that plane is accessed, all paradoxes, dichotomies, dualities will meet, they all come full-circle, and that is when everything begins to makes sense, without taking any view or position whatsoever. Its how much one can let go.. all the conditions that has been voluntarily or involuntarily acknowledged by us, drummed into our heads, and then used as criteria to measure what is fundamentally unmeasurable. No can do.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Also I forgot to mention that some animals also beat each other with their own skulls just for the right to sleep in a certain spot. Just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it is good for you.

 

There are some so called "natural" cleaners that are not safe. Just because things occur naturally doesnt mean usuing something in high concentrations no matter what way you choose makes anything safe. It is a broad statement but then again marketing seems to really like to misuse the term natural to mean anything occuring naturally. Under this concept large amounts of cannibis smoked is natural, or large quantities of cyanide from appleseeds extracted are also natural.

[Mattimo]

Oh no, I'm not taking my experience as something I'm proud of or that I'd even defend. I think a lot of you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

No worries mate, I only phrased my initial post a certain way because I was trying to get a point across and I didn't want you to overlook it . Moreover, I really wanted to express my sincere belief that continued use of marijuana with the intent to think rapidly isn't a good idea. I say this from experience and have had friends become totally ungrounded and partially insane which was brought on by rapidly thinking under the influence of cannabis. The problem is that the average human being is quite toxic because we live in a toxic society. There is so much trauma often present in man, that drugs - albeit natural - can bring these things to the surface in an uncontrollable and seemingly nonsensical manner.

 

You, my friend, are experiencing the dawning of awareness and no doubt crave information. This is part of the process but remember to find balance. Remember that the TAO is not some external thing, it is within you. Therefore, that is why you may resonate or remember thinking or feeling a certain way which you later discover is described in esoteric texts.

[Encephalon]

I have searched for what it means to be enlightened around tons of other forums, and have tried to find if anyone else has had an experience similar to mine, but so far I haven't found anyone yet. I have only recently started studying Taoism, but based on an experience I recently had, I have to ask whether or not I have attained enlightenment. I don't know whether or not other members are against the use of marijuana, but my experience has something to do with it, so don't read on if it will somehow offend you: The last city I lived in was not a place I really liked, and I didn't meet many people, but the couple of friends I did have were very fun to be around. We liked to sit around on the weekends and casually smoke weed, but while they seemed to just laugh a lot and watch movies, I was having a completely different effect. I was experiencing these sudden realizations about my existence and life and nature and they were coming so fast that I couldn't explain them in any way. I would try to tell my friends but they all just kind of laughed at me and told me I was high. Obviously I was, and obviously the drug was contributing to the way I was thinking, but it's not like I was having these mindless, irrational thoughts. They were about how connected every single thing is, and about how everyone is everyone, yet no one is no one; how a serious situations aren't serious until they actually happen to you; about how insignificant, meaningless, and small we are, even though most of us never look beyond us, the human race, or question what goes on. How I am a tiny space on a never ending timeline, and how there is no true good or evil, because who's to say what's what? And that was the best way I could explain it, so when my friends didn't understand or take me seriously, I was sad; not because they weren't taking me seriously, but because they were being guided like sheep without even knowing. These thoughts ate at me until one day while sitting in class, I had what I would describe as an epiphany. It was like everything in the world became so obvious and clear out of nowhere. It was like someone had taken off some sort of goggles I had been wearing and I could see everything for how it really was. I began to see how sad it was that people were so obsessed with their clothing brands, how they looked, how others looked, how popular or successful they were, and it was at that moment that all the people in my life that had previously upset me by putting me down and making fun of me, no longer affected me. It was like, no matter what, I couldn't be saddened or angered. At that moment, I felt a wave of happiness go through me, and I was almost brought to tears by how clear everything had become. After that day, I quit trying to answer all the questions in class, stopped engaging in meaningless arguments, and began to accept all points of view from all people. (I still didn't even explain all of the revelations I experienced here, but I can't find a way to describe them) Now, fast forward three or four months, and I've started to study Taoism and read the Tao Te Ching, and everything that I felt and was realizing earlier was put into words in this book. But here is the true point of this whole post: How could I, without any idea of the Tao, have reached enlightenment? Especially while people go there whole lives trying to attain it. It just doesn't seem to make sense. Thank you, if you were able to read through the lengthy post. I also apologize for my typing, I've been up for a while now and am a bit tired.

 

I would encourage you to take up the practice of alcoholism.

[Marblehead]

I would encourage you to take up the practice of alcoholism.

 

And I would suggest starting out with Southern Comfort. You don't even notice it until you stand up.

 

Peace & Love!