Military Training

[mantis]

They really accomplished something in life.

 

Did they become taoist immmortals? No, but how many people do? If you enjoy your life and live with no regrets imo you've accomplished all there is to accomplish.

[Brian]

...

[mantis]

Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen close relatives who served in the military, seven of whom were combat infantry or navy veterans. Of them, only two displayed what in hindsight I would call PTSD symptoms. One was an uncle who survived the Bataan death march and the other was my father, who did two tours in SE Asia with Special Forces before we officially even had advisers in the area (his papers said he was on a five-year training mission in Argentina. That uncle suffered from depression later (successfully treated with therapy) but was a gentle and soft-spoken man who held a job as an insurance agent for thirty years and provided for his wife & family. My father would occasionally go from sleeping to screaming and standing in the bed in a fighting stance, and we would toss pillows at him to wake him. Clearly PTSD but none of the other "symptoms" Scotty ascribed earlier to pretty much all vets -- he left my mother (who was 13 years his senior) for a hot young nurse he'd gone to high school with but he stayed in my life (as well as my siblings) and raised a second family as well, eventually retiring as head of homicide for the Metro-Dade Sheriff's Department and spending much of his remaining years fishing.

 

My step-father was on the ground at Pearl Harbor and he says his 25 years in an engine company on the Miami fire department was far more traumatic than the "day which will live in infamy." I have a brother, an uncle & a brother-in-law who were infantry in the last half of 'Nam, each of whom saw combat (to differing degrees) and all of whom have led well-adjusted lives. One has been sailing the oceans with his wife & two kids for the last nine years after making a small fortune as a yacht broker, another went back into the service as an Air Force MP for thirty years and is very much like me in mood & temperament (and even the way we walk!) while the third married my baby sister, who also served (she was in the Air Force), and they live on a small farm in the NC mountains where he is an electrical contractor and my sister is a hospital social worker currently finishing her masters while they also help to care for both his parents and mine.

 

One grandfather was at Marne. He had been a cowboy in Montana & Canada before WWI and was a dairy farmer for 15 years after the war, until the Great Depression forced him to move to town. Another uncle was in the Sea-Bees in the South Pacific. Another brother did turn-arounds as flight engineer on a C-141 during both gulf wars while his wife (who had been trained to stuff body-bags and got to see Jim Jones' handiwork in person) left the service to raise their two kids. He is the most physically powerful person I have ever met but is also one of the most laid-back and peaceful.

 

My point is that the brush being used in this thread is waaay too broad! Do some vets come back screwed up? Absolutely! Many of them? Yeah, maybe. Many do not, though, including those who see awful things. Many were screwed up before they went into the military. My wife is a mental health social worker and has worked with chronics, DDs & homeless populations for more than twenty years, plus Asheville is a homeless magnet (by policy) and has a VA hospital that dumps broken people on the sidewalks on a regular basis; I have come in close contact with lots of unfortunate souls. I am NOT saying that the military turns out invariably produces veterans who are well-adjusted model citizens -- that would be ridiculous! What I AM saying, though, is that psychotic substance-abusing street-people are not the rule, either.

 

Some people find dissecting a frog in high school biology to be a horrific and scarring experience. I found my wife's c-section to be fascinating (the way they unpacked her organs while I peeked over the little curtain across her chest as I held her hand, the way they repacked her and stapled her closed while discussing mutual funds, etc.) and I ate sausage & eggs in the hospital cafeteria 15 minutes later with her parents. My son gets queasy touching raw chicken while I have dressed out a hog and then cooked it, Cuban-style (tasty stuff!)

 

People are very diverse and respond to situations & experiences in different ways.

 

 

 

Besides, any of you who are Buddhists oughta understand that it is all just karma plus its all illusory anyhow, right?

 

There, some backup

[The Observer]

Killing other humans, for whatever reason, is completely unnecessary. Period. Killing perpetuates more in turn.

[Nanashi]

No wonder this thread doesn't make any sense to me, I don't have my tin foil hat on.

 

 

In 1962 Inouye was elected to the U.S. Senate, succeeding fellow Democrat Oren E. Long. He is currently serving his eighth consecutive six-year term ... Inouye was also involved in the Iran-Contra investigations of the 1980s, chairing a special committee from 1987 until 1989. During the hearings Senator Inouye made a statement about the existence of a 'secret government' within the United States that had been involved in the Iran-Contra affair. He summarized the coverup by the US Shadowy Government involvement by saying:

 

"There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of the national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself."

[mantis]

Killing other humans, for whatever reason, is completely unnecessary. Period. Killing perpetuates more in turn.

 

Whatever.

[ralis]

Whatever.

 

 

You don't agree with the above statement?

 

 

ralis

[mantis]

You don't agree with the above statement?

 

 

ralis

 

Not at all.

[ralis]

Not at all.

 

Please elaborate on your reasoning.

 

ralis

[Machin Shin]

Sure! It seems that the USAFA is also being overrun with Wiccans. They didn't like their indoor worship space so a double circle of stones was constructed for them near the visitor's welcome center. There was concern over erosion ruining the worship space, though, so they selected a spot on the top of a nearby hill and had the stone relocated there. A couple of weeks later, though, they were all bummed out, apparently, when someone placed a small wooden cross at the site.

 

No word, though, on whether the Wiccans plan to use magic spells as a weapon against either Christians or foreign troops.

 

This mortal coil is such a tricky place...

Is this in Colorado Springs? I'll plan a couple of extra hours on my next trip to Boulder to see this circle if it is in colorado springs.

 

Has anyone read the doctrine of the CSS?

Mission

 

The National Security Agency/Central Security Service leads the community in delivering responsive, reliable, effective, and expert Signals Intelligence and Information Assurance products and services, and enables Network Warfare operations to gain a decisive information advantage for the Nation and our allies under all circumstances.

 

GOAL 1: Mission - Deliver responsive, reliable, and effective Signals Intelligence and Information Assurance, and enable Network Warfare operations, for National Security under all circumstances.

 

GOAL 2: Transformation - Achieve global network dominance though the development and deployment of a new generation of globally distributed active and passive cryptologic capabilities.

 

GOAL 3: People - Enhance an expert workforce to meet global cryptologic challenges.

 

GOAL 4: Business Practices - Create and integrate effective and efficient business management practices within the enterprise and with stakeholders.

Core Values

 

We will protect national security interests by adhering to the highest standards of behavior.

 

* Lawfulness

* Honesty

* Integrity

* Fairness

* Accountability

* Loyalty

* Collaboration

* Innovation

* Learning

[Brian]

...

[Brian]

...

[Sunya]

Please elaborate on your reasoning.

 

ralis

 

Do you support the death penalty?

 

Let's say someone gets convicted of a really fucked up crime. Oh I don't know, raping and murdering a 12 year old boy. The evidence is conclusive. This person was assessed by psychologists and they conclude that there's just no way to re habituate him. He's just genetically disposed to pedofilia, violence, and anti-social behavior. What do we do? Do we put him in person and waste tax dollars keeping him alive? Or do we allow him to "take one for the team"?

 

People die anyway, so why should I pay to keep a reject alive? I'd rather he die. Sorry. I don't think death is really that big of a deal. We have a collective fear of death and so we view killing as inherently wrong. I think that blatant and unjustified killing is wrong but some people just don't deserve to live.

 

That's on a societal level, but when it comes to war, things change. Killing becomes justified simply because the enemy is wearing a different uniform. In my view, the justification is in self-defense and/or the protection of just values. Even if one side is the aggressor, their call to arms may be right. Many people are against the wars in Iraq/Afghani because the justification wasn't right, but in the end I think we were doing the right thing. Though there weren't WMDs in Iraq, it was a brutal dictatorship and the people were oppressed. The same in Afghani. I challenge any liberal to read personal accounts of life in those areas. Unfortunately though, we are seen as the aggressor and this hatred bleeds through to our values as well. But that can't be avoided. The world is growing up fast and the the backward countries are being forced to get with the program. The most threatening countries are poked first (Iraq, Afghani, North Korea, and Iran soon), but eventually there will be wars with the warlords in Africa. This is just inevitable and not a bad thing. Values are spread through wars.

[Machin Shin]

One has to trust ones instincts. The AI that monitors the net must have noticed this forums international content. So an NSA/CSS agent was tasked to monitor the content and give a report. One of the AI's that reads the net for terrorist activities is located in Arizona University in Tucson.

 

This is my not so humble opinion 8^/

[mantis]

Please elaborate on your reasoning.

 

ralis

 

I won't.

[voidisyinyang]

[Pero]

IMO people who have intention to follow a spiritual path shouldn't join the military unless they don't have a choice.

[mantis]

IMO people who have intention to follow a spiritual path shouldn't join the military unless they don't have a choice.

 

Why? Plenty of "spiritual" leaders have been warriors beforehand.

[Pero]

Why? Plenty of "spiritual" leaders have been warriors beforehand.

 

It's a different story if you're already a "warrior" and then want to follow a spiritual path.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Pero

[Sunya]

It's a different story if you're already a "warrior" and then want to follow a spiritual path.

 

Like I mentiond earlier, I really think it's moreso what you actually do in the military. Some jobs aren't different at all from any 'regular' job, and many of these jobs would fall under 'right livelihood.'

 

If you think that your day job should be spiritual somehow, then there truly aren't that many to choose from.

[Pero]

Like I mentiond earlier, I really think it's moreso what you actually do in the military. Some jobs aren't different at all from any 'regular' job, and many of these jobs would fall under 'right livelihood.'

 

If you think that your day job should be spiritual somehow, then there truly aren't that many to choose from.

 

Yeah I thought about that but the thing is you would still be part of the military, an organization that kills people. That's the difference with a "regular" job. I suppose you could do it while disagreeing with their philosphy/actions but then it might be hard to work at such a place.

[metal dog]

My uncle was ordered to shoot into and burn down hooches with women and children inside...the dreams of the past never leave him.

[Sunya]

Yeah I thought about that but the thing is you would still be part of the military, an organization that kills people. That's the difference with a "regular" job. I suppose you could do it while disagreeing with their philosphy/actions but then it might be hard to work at such a place.

 

I think it depends on how you look at it. Look at it this way: what is more selfish, to remove yourself from society or to sacrifice yourself by joining the military and defending society. The way I see it, if it wasn't for the military, we would not be able to live a pacifist life.

 

Maybe for some, the best way that they can be bodhisattvas is to protect those who want to practice. Look at what happened with Tibet. If they could have defended themselves properly they would not have been taken over by the Chinese and expelled from their home country.

[Ryan T.]

My uncle was ordered to shoot into and burn down hooches with women and children inside...the dreams of the past never leave him.

 

And unless those women and children were active participants in an ongoing conflict, not just happening to be in area where the conflict was occurring, he violated the "rules of war" or "rules of engagement" or whatever they called them at the time he was in the military. That is, if he followed those orders.

 

Just because someone is in the military does not mean they do not get to have a moral compass. Now some may not agree with the calibration of that compass but it should still exist.

[gendao]

I think it depends on how you look at it. Look at it this way: what is more selfish, to remove yourself from society or to sacrifice yourself by joining the military and defending society. The way I see it, if it wasn't for the military, we would not be able to live a pacifist life.

 

Maybe for some, the best way that they can be bodhisattvas is to protect those who want to practice. Look at what happened with Tibet. If they could have defended themselves properly they would not have been taken over by the Chinese and expelled from their home country.

I agree you need a strong self-defense.

 

However, if the US wasn't constantly subverting other countries, we wouldn't be creating so many enemies that we then need to "defend" against.

 

And most of our maneuvers are not defensive anyways - but highly offensive.

 

 

For example - look at Canada. They have very little military because they don't continually force hegemonic foreign policy upon others - and thus have little need to maintain extensive global bases or home defense. As a result, they do fairly well economically despite having little industry.

 

The sheer amount of money it takes for the US to maintain its global mafia is astronomical. I heard it takes an average of about $1.1 million to station each single soldier in Iraq for a year. In addition to our welfare state, no damn wonder our country is now bankrupt (and then want to simply scapegoat China for it)!

Edited August 25, 2010 by vortex