Of Men and Of Heaven

[Marblehead]

Hi 3bob,

 

I must stay to my word and not post in that thread anymore but I did want to speak to this.

 

This is really a very tricky subject because if we are not careful with our words we may appear to be contradicting the TTC so bear with me and if there is any doubt please question my word usage.

 

The Great Sage is a very wise and old child of the universe's matrix, also a "steward" and a "King" (as in having those qualities or virtues along with others)... thus from my pov. he/she knows the Tao and through them the Tao does care far beyond only the limits of human understanding. "The Tao is hidden and nameless; Yet it alone knows how to render help and to fulfill." T.T.C. 41

 

Yes, Tao has provided what was needed for life to evolve on this planet of our. But I attach no intent to this fact. Earth just happened to be the right distance from a right sized star.

 

The last line of Chapter 41, translated by Dr. Wang, reads:

 

"Only with Tao, one can be good at initiation and good at completion."

 

It says nothing about Tao doing these things.

 

Further, if there were no caring as related to virtue(s) then the following chapter, among others would not be true for then it would be every rat on the street for himself:

 

But these are the virtues of man, are they not? Look into nature. There is no consistency. Some animals are very social and without question give their life for the sake of the society. Other animals are very solitary, killing each other upon meeting.

 

Man is a fairly social animal. They found out early that working as a team was more effieient than working solitary. But can we really say that man's nature truely is social or is it a learned aspect of humanity? Probably both, I think.

 

And look into the heavens. Tao doesn't care if two stars get too close to each other and blow each other up. Stuff happens.

 

T.T.C. 27.

GOOD walking leaves no track behind it;

Good speech leaves no mark to be picked at;

Good calculation makes no use of counting-slips;

Good shutting makes no use of bolt and bar,

And yet nobody can undo it;

Good tying makes no use of rope and knot,

And yet nobody can untie it.

 

Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men,

And therefore nobody is abandoned;

Always good at saving things,

And therefore nothing is wasted.

 

This is called "following the guidance of the Inner

Light."

 

Hence, good men are teachers of bad men,

While bad men are the charge of good men.

Not to revere one's teacher,

Not to cherish one's charge,

Is to be on the wrong road, however intelligent one

may be.

This is an essential tenet of the Tao.

 

Om

 

Lines 6, 7 & 8 translated by Dr. Wang read:

 

The Sage, therefore,

always helps his people, and abandons no one.

To abandon on one, is to follow (true) illumination.

 

It doesn't say that the Sage is following Tao, it say he/she is following illumination. What is illumination? Enlightenment perhaps? Enlightenment of what? The ideals of man, not Tao.

 

 

So yes, Tao provides everything we need in life. As long as we are living in the right place on earth. But what about the continent of Africa? Especially the northern portion except along the Nile River? You can't tell me that Tao has provided well for these people.

 

And what about all the natural planetary events that take so many lives each year? The floods in Pakistan at the moment is a perfect example. The processes of Tao caused this to happen. This is not love and caring.

 

Therefore, I suggest that to place any man-made values on Tao is an error. Yes, Tao creates and sustains. But it also destroys.

 

Honorable human values would be to express love and caring. To protect those who cannot protect themselves; to aid those in need.

 

Remember the Straw Dogs?

 

Peace & Love!

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Ah I remember DB saying something about Straw Dogs having value and yet being expendable. I suppose we all are. Not in a bad way, but others come to take our place.

 

Pink Light.

[voidisyinyang]

But what about the continent of Africa? Especially the northern portion except along the Nile River? You can't tell me that Tao has provided well for these people.

 

And what about all the natural planetary events that take so many lives each year? The floods in Pakistan at the moment is a perfect example.

 

Marblehead you're conflating Western civilization with Taoism. Western civilization is based on the "Separation of Heaven and Earth" through "Mass ritual sacrifice" -- I detail this in my blogbook "Deep Disharmony" which you can read at http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com

 

Taoism is based on "harmony of Heaven and Earth" -- so that Heaven is the upper tan tien third eye while Earth is the lower tan tien and the heart is the pivot as the soul consciousness creating the harmony.

 

So in Western Civilization the Separation of Heaven and Earth is through left-brain dominance -- the axiom as God -- "I Am that I Am" is a geometric closing off of infinity -- as circular logic. So this left-brain axiom cuts off the heart from the third eye and the lower tan tien.

 

The Garden of Eden story is about this -- how God as the heart cuts off modern Western man from heaven -- the tree of knowledge and earth -- the tree of life. The kundalini is the snake and Eve, as a female, inherently knows the harmony of heaven and earth.

 

So God is about the violent patriarchy -- left brain dominance -- whereas previously the harmony of heaven and earth was based on males learning to be like females -- through energy training -- to access the internal kundalini energy.

 

As for the people along the Nile river -- Egypt -- well you'd have to study Western colonialism. Read Noam Chomsky's "Year 501: The Conquest Continues" -- or better yet read Noam Chomsky's "World Orders: Old and New." So Egypt used to have a thriving cotton export industry -- better than anything in Western civilization -- so the British used thuggery -- and laws -- to both cut off the Egyptian exports using tariffs and then to colonize Egypt through the military. That's what put Egypt into poverty -- Western civilization!! Of course the British then lied about this -- because that's what military thugs do -- they lie and are in denial.

 

I call this the De-Nile of Alchemy as in the Nile River being the ancient symbol of the Harmony of Heaven and Earth -- the Nile floods every year with the rising of the Sirius star - the brightest star at night -- and this is where Freemasonry comes from -- but Freemasonry twisted this ancient alchemy of the harmony of heaven and earth -- Freemasonry relies on the "Separation of Heaven and Earth" through "mass ritual sacrifice."

 

Again I give more details in my blogbook "Deep Disharmony: Secrets of the CIA's Psi-Plasma Vortex."

 

Basically though Taoism works on complementary opposite resonance -- so that 2:3 is yang and 3:4 is yin - and this is from the Pythagorean (snake or kundalini master) Tetrad -- 1:2:3:4 with 1:2 as the emptiness consciousness.

 

This is an open cycle of resonance whereas Western "Separation of Heaven and Earth" math is based on closed off symmetric geometry -- for "mass ritual sacrifice."

 

So the problem of modern man as being against the Tao is psychophysiological -- it's because the modern man can not have the internal female climaxes.

 

The Bushmen modern males all had to train to be energy healers -- based on strict gender relations -- and the Bushmen shamans were the original human culture from 100,000 BCE to 10,000 BCE. There was no warfare for the Bushmen -- and very little violence -- instead all the males sublimated their sex energy through strict training and learned how to have female internal climaxes by doing so.

 

This psychophysiological issue goes all the way back to the difference between chimpanzees who have warfare and to bonobos who are peaceful - the male bonobos very rarely have external ejaculations in contrast to the male chimpanzees. The male bonobos are peaceful.

 

So enlightenment is part of following the Tao -- Taoism is based on love as the harmony of heaven and earth -- and it comes from the Bushmen culture. Certainly there is love buried deep even in the worst type of violence in Nature -- but this love is usually not perceived by modern man. That's why modern man is fixated on violence whereas if a human can perceive the love then the human remains peaceful, despite Nature having violence. There is a deeper harmony to Nature that has to be perceived.

 

How Nature is interpreted is a matter of great ideological brainwashing in Western culture. I have a masters degree in political ecology so I've studied this issue at great length. So Richard Dawkins, for example, promotes the "selfish gene" -- which is actually just an extension of the Nazi eugenics mentality. Nazism arose from Ernest Haeckel's misuse of Nature -- lies that Haeckel used to argue for a eugenics as evolution. So this racist attitude towards nonWestern cultures is then used to justify imperialism and genocide.

 

Science, is, in fact a religion based on the "Separation of Heaven and Earth" using "mass ritual sacrifice" -- because Western math is actually ritual geometry. This is documented in my blogbook "Deep Disharmony" -- for example Richard Dawkins rants against religion when in fact Dawkins is speaking at "Synthetic Ecology" conferences to replace Nature with nanobiomotors based on Buckyfullerene sacred geometry -- Dawkins argues that Platonic sacred ritual geometry is the secret to creating synthetic ecology. So Dawkins is secretly more religious than even the priests -- because the priests just talk while Dawkins is actually working with scientists to create this mass ritual sacrifice as separation of Heaven and Earth.

 

As for the floods in Pakistan -- global climate destabilization is very real. Of course no one wants to believe in human Western civilization as causing global weather catastrophes -- but that's exactly the point - science is a religion. So the means to make the rational analysis of global warming are the SAME means that are CAUSING global warming! The machines are in control -- not humans -- machines, supercomputers, provide the models for global warming. Even the mathematicians can not follow the logic for complexity -- nonlinear chaotic mathematics -- the computers do the iterations and the humans cross their fingers. So, just as in politics, science will never "agree" about global warming -- because rational control of Nature is a myth in the first place!!

Edited August 21, 2010 by drewhempel

[Marblehead]

But Drew,

 

I was not talking abour religion and politics, both of which I have little use for. I was talking abour pure nature. Many of the processes in the universe (heaven) are very violent. earth is the only planet that was graced with live (as far as we know). Venus and Mars were denied.

 

Here on earth the processes are not all that peaceful much of the time. Some areas are denied rain and others are flooded. Even though it is said that Tao rains down on all equally this is really not true.

 

Even though it has been said that man's original nature is good I believe this is not true either. I have seen some very young evil kids. Some would say that is is because of bad parenting but if the child were naturally good how could it possess such evil traits as we have all heard about.

 

I understand what you are driving at but it is you how have injected Western man's values in this discussion, not I. I am speaking to the concept of the nature of the universe and Earth, not necessarily of man.

 

And that is why I said this in my last post: Therefore, I suggest that to place any man-made values on Tao is an error.

 

Peace & Love!

[voidisyinyang]

But Drew,

 

I was not talking abour religion and politics, both of which I have little use for. I was talking abour pure nature. Many of the processes in the universe (heaven) are very violent. earth is the only planet that was graced with live (as far as we know). Venus and Mars were denied.

 

Here on earth the processes are not all that peaceful much of the time. Some areas are denied rain and others are flooded. Even though it is said that Tao rains down on all equally this is really not true.

 

Even though it has been said that man's original nature is good I believe this is not true either. I have seen some very young evil kids. Some would say that is is because of bad parenting but if the child were naturally good how could it possess such evil traits as we have all heard about.

 

I understand what you are driving at but it is you how have injected Western man's values in this discussion, not I. I am speaking to the concept of the nature of the universe and Earth, not necessarily of man.

 

And that is why I said this in my last post: Therefore, I suggest that to place any man-made values on Tao is an error.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Marblehead -- Ideology -- being brainwashed -- is based on subconscious concepts.

 

If you KNEW what you were talking about then that wouldn't be brainwashing.

 

When you emphasize what you're "TALKING" about that is a subconscious emphasis on your left-brain dominance.

 

What I'm talking about is permanent transformation of your brain physiology -- I'm talking about a permanent magnetic bliss in the center of the brain!

 

I'm talking about being able to consciously FLEX the center of your brain at will and transmitting energy out of the brain.

 

Modern people can not do this -- modern people have left brain dominance -- and so modern people think they're "talking about" something -- when in fact modern people live in a fake world of rationalism.

 

Modern rational thinking IS a type of religion!! Modern rational thinking is political ideology as deep religious brainwashing.

 

So words online won't do anything -- I recommend sitting in full lotus as much as possible -- why? Because you can't lie to yourself about full lotus.

 

http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/162-You-Cant-Fake-The-Full-lotus!-Testimony-of-a-qigong-practitioner-in-the-context-of-parapsychology.html

[Marblehead]

But Drew,

 

You are not speaking to the subject of this thread.

 

And I assure you, my brain is fully conscious when I am typing on my keyboard.

 

But your thought on states of consciousness or even mine have nothing to do with the nature of the universe; the nature of Tao.

 

And believe me Drew, I do not lie to myself. Although I do hold to a few delusions I know exactly what they are and whan to allow them out to play.

 

But here I am talking about myself and this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

 

Now, would you like to talk about the nature of Tao?

 

Peace & Love!

Edited August 21, 2010 by Marblehead

[Birch]

"Honorable human values would be to express love and caring."

 

Of course they would be! But look at what is presently honored? Where's that Iching stanza that explains that to understand someone you only have to look at what they appreciate, eat, associate with, all that jazz?

 

How do you "honor" something anyway? Personally, I'm not sure at all. I think I have lots of people telling me how (tends to be through taking my ca$h or wanting my submission).

 

I have a few data-points, experiences and perspectives (probably insufficient as "proof") that our friend Drew here is technically correct. Of course he sounds like a crazy person (sometimes).

 

Plus his "bad behaviour" in McDonalds - the strange stories of animals and his triumphant-sounding recounting of it all is weird as hell, but still I'd like to suggest, "do the math" (as in "do the practices"). They really don't take that long.

[voidisyinyang]

Since this review of "The Modernity of Witchcraft" http://www.amazon.com/Modernity-Witchcraft-Politics-Occult-Postcolonial/dp/0813917034

 

hasn't done the practice -- the secret ritual of eating a person -- then they don't understand the analysis.

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2005/is_1_33/ai_56027332/

 

The modernity of witchcraft, for Geschiere, occurs when individuals from societies such as the Maka have the opportunity to involves themselves in politics at the center of Cameroon, thus risking the possibility of bringing forces which are still beyond effective local control into communal life. The analogy in witchcraft discourse is that of "eating" one's own kin, always the most frightening version of power abuse but one which, in its original form, remained subject to some kind of effective sanctions. In the present Maka context, elites who tap into alien power sources still fear the sanctions of those who remain in the home villages, but the villagers are not confident that their efforts can "domesticate" their urbanized brethren. The result, as Geschiere notes is "that modern transformations have tended to corrupt notions on witchcraft so that it risks degenerating into a discourse on power and especially on disempowerment."

 

http://www.upress.virginia.edu/books/geschiere.html

 

. In The Modernity of Witchcraft, Peter Geschieres uses his own experiences among the Maka and in other parts of eastern and southern Cameroon, as well as other anthropological research, to argue that contemporary ideas and practices of witchcraft are more a response to modern exigencies than a lingering cultural custom.

 

Asase Yaa!!

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asase_Ya

 

Asase Ya (or Asase Yaa also known as aberewa) is the earth goddess of fertility in the mythology of the Ashanti people of Ghana. She is the wife of Nyame the sky god. In Ashanti mythology she gave birth to two sons, Bea and Tano. However, in their folklore she is also the mother of Anansi the trickster god. Asase Yaa is very powerful, though no temples are dedicated to her, instead she is worshipped in the fields.

Edited August 21, 2010 by drewhempel

[Marblehead]

"Honorable human values would be to express love and caring."

 

Of course they would be! But look at what is presently honored? Where's that Iching stanza that explains that to understand someone you only have to look at what they appreciate, eat, associate with, all that jazz?

 

How do you "honor" something anyway? Personally, I'm not sure at all. I think I have lots of people telling me how (tends to be through taking my ca$h or wanting my submission).

 

I have a few data-points, experiences and perspectives (probably insufficient as "proof") that our friend Drew here is technically correct. Of course he sounds like a crazy person (sometimes).

 

Plus his "bad behaviour" in McDonalds - the strange stories of animals and his triumphant-sounding recounting of it all is weird as hell, but still I'd like to suggest, "do the math" (as in "do the practices"). They really don't take that long.

 

Hi Kate,

 

Yes, this is much closer to the subject of the thread. Thank you.

 

So what is being honored today? Yeah, no doubt about it, power and wealth. This has nothing to do with the Way of Tao.

 

To honor something or someone is to show it or them respect for what they are or what they offer to others. It is about acknowledging the usefulness of that whatever. Yes, people will lead you astray. And yes, they will take all your money if you allowit to happen. And this too has nothing to do with the Way of Tao.

 

Oh!, I'm not arguing against what Drew has said. He is just saying it in an inappropriate thread. Well, yeah, I do find him a little off the wall sometimes (Hehehe.) but that is because my interests are not in most of the areas he speaks to.

 

But anyhow, the point I shall make here is that life is not equally fair to everyone. Some people got it and some people don't. This is the same with all life on earth, the Way of our solar system, the Way of Heaven, the Way of the universe.

 

We, people of Tao (and yes, even people of Buddhism) would like to see a little more fairness in the world but we need remember that this is one of our desires. It is not something we can say is consistent with the Way of the universe. The universe is a violent place. Big changes going on out there! The changes we experience are really so very insignificant in comparison.

 

But still, we can make our life more enjoyable as well as the lives of those we care about if we really put some effort into it.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Drew,

 

That last post has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread. If you are trying to be a pain in the ass you are succeeding.

 

If you continue this I promise I will return the favor in a few of your threads.

 

Thank you for stopping you silly mind games. They are silly, you know.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

[Marblehead]

Kate,

 

You should be ashamed of yourself for that post.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

Kate,

 

You should be ashamed of yourself for that post.

 

Peace & Love!

 

'Cept I'm not

 

Actually, if you look at the video a few times you'll "get" some understanding into "science", "power", "politics", "honour" and "shameful" women.

 

At the end after being found guilty by the "duck-weighing" exercise on the scientist's "biggest scales" she says it's a "fair cop" Puts that LHC into some context fer yours truly

[Birch]

I felt I needed to add:

 

"So what is being honored today? Yeah, no doubt about it, power and wealth."

 

From my small understanding of TTC "power", and "wealth" are not the same. And from my small understanding of present values (sic) "wealth" has been switched (as in "bait and switch") for something else. "Power" is as "power" does.

[3bob]

MH, the following partly relates my pov,

 

The Earth as purity of nature is a very large soul (so to speak) of a different order besides the order of souls known as mankind; Her beauty, power, goodness, healing harmony and truth are not limited to common human interpretations of those qualities.

 

Does she care? I'd say her quintessential nature is to care, which in no way negates what mankind calls the "laws of nature" taking place on more permutated and karmic levels; anyway for mankind to go further and see the fullness of all laws at work is not so easy but still possible as mentioned in the TTC, for instance "Earth follows Heaven" is alluding to laws at work or in effect.

 

Om

[Marblehead]

I felt I needed to add:

 

"So what is being honored today? Yeah, no doubt about it, power and wealth."

 

From my small understanding of TTC "power", and "wealth" are not the same. And from my small understanding of present values (sic) "wealth" has been switched (as in "bait and switch") for something else. "Power" is as "power" does.

 

Thanks for this response. Yes, the words 'wealth' and 'power' are still valid words in Taoist philosophy. But the words have much different connotations in Taoism than they do in most of today's societies.

 

Today 'wealth' means having a gross excess whereas in Taoism it is having enough.

 

Today 'power' means having control over others but in Taoism it means having control of one's self.

 

Seems to me that now-a-days people what it all and they want it now and that they deserve everything they want. But there they sit, bitching about those who have but too lazy to get up from in front of the TV and honestly earn what they need.

 

And they even blame the government for taking everything from them or for not giving them what they want.

 

There really isn't anything wrong with getting a job and earning an honest wage. That was how I was able to retire in my early 50's.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

 

The Earth as purity of nature is a very large soul (so to speak) of a different order besides the order of souls known as mankind; Her beauty, power, goodness, healing harmony and truth are not limited to common human interpretations of those qualities.

 

Does she care? I'd say her quintessential nature is to care, which in no way negates what mankind calls the "laws of nature" taking place on more permutated and karmic levels; anyway for mankind to go further and see the fullness of all laws at work is not so easy but still possible as mentioned in the TTC, for instance "Earth follows Heaven" is alluding to laws at work or in effect.

 

Om

 

Hi 3bob,

 

I agree that the Earth is a very special place. No problem there. And yes, Earth follows the processes of Heave. No problem there. And Heaven follows its natural processes as does the Earth. No problem there either.

 

I will not personify Earth or Heaven so I can't say anything to that.

 

However, in order to speak to your second paragraph I must speak from your point of view.

 

So, yes, she cares. She cares for herself. She tries to manitain balance and harmony throughout her entire being. She does what needs be done. Ah!, here's the rub. She does what needs be done with no consideration of the thoughts of man.

 

Man looks at her actions and places their own judgements on her actions. When things are going along fine we praise her but when shit happens we blame her. Don't we have enough to do in living our own life and being as prepared as possible for the changes that will occur during our lifetime without placing our expectations on others and especially Mother Earth?

 

What gives us the right to blame any other essence for following its natural processes? Now sure, at the lowest levels of our life we can do this regarding our immediate environment and other people and plants and animals we interact with but to waste time on things and events that are totally beyond our ability to effect is a total waste of time, in my opinion.

 

Taoist philosophy tells us to learn the processes of Tao, Heaven, Earth, and Man so that we can live as compatible as possible with the processes and thereby have the best chance of living our life to its fullest potential. It is here where we can do nothing yet there is nothing that has not been done - just moving with the processes.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hi 3bob,

 

I agree that the Earth is a very special place. No problem there. And yes, Earth follows the processes of Heave. No problem there. And Heaven follows its natural processes as does the Earth. No problem there either.

 

I will not personify Earth or Heaven so I can't say anything to that.

 

However, in order to speak to your second paragraph I must speak from your point of view.

 

So, yes, she cares. She cares for herself. She tries to manitain balance and harmony throughout her entire being. She does what needs be done. Ah!, here's the rub. She does what needs be done with no consideration of the thoughts of man.

 

Man looks at her actions and places their own judgements on her actions. When things are going along fine we praise her but when shit happens we blame her. Don't we have enough to do in living our own life and being as prepared as possible for the changes that will occur during our lifetime without placing our expectations on others and especially Mother Earth?

 

What gives us the right to blame any other essence for following its natural processes? Now sure, at the lowest levels of our life we can do this regarding our immediate environment and other people and plants and animals we interact with but to waste time on things and events that are totally beyond our ability to effect is a total waste of time, in my opinion.

 

Taoist philosophy tells us to learn the processes of Tao, Heaven, Earth, and Man so that we can live as compatible as possible with the processes and thereby have the best chance of living our life to its fullest potential. It is here where we can do nothing yet there is nothing that has not been done - just moving with the processes.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Ah, but to de-personify is akin to de-souling in my pov.. Thus all this talk of "impersonal enlightenment" is partialy missing the mark since there is also a personal or soul aspect that goes along with the impartial/impersonal aspect of laws.... with Grace being the highest Law that works with a person or with a soul.

 

Om

[Birch]

"people what it all and they want it now and that they deserve everything they want."

 

 

Now why would they go thinking/believing that?

 

"But there they sit, bitching about those who have but too lazy to get up from in front of the TV and honestly earn what they need."

 

See my post above on the confusion of want/need and the bait n switch^TM

 

"And they even blame the government for taking everything from them or for not giving them what they want."

 

Why?

 

"There really isn't anything wrong with getting a job and earning an honest wage. That was how I was able to retire in my early 50's."

 

Good for you! Do you think "they" can/can't/don't want to?

 

It's one thing if they can and don't want to, entirely another if they can't.

[Marblehead]

Ah, but to de-personify is akin to de-souling in my pov.. Thus all this talk of "impersonal enlightenment" is partialy missing the mark since there is also a personal or soul aspect that goes along with the impartial/impersonal aspect of laws.... with Grace being the highest Law that works with a person or with a soul.

 

Om

 

Okay. You won a cigar with that one. Sometimes I get too concept specific when I am attempting to persent an understanding.

 

However, I will still suggest that for self-cultivation we must ignore all externals and concentrate solely on ourself.

 

And yes, there are many who view the universe as a living organism. I don't hold to this view but I can see the value in the concept.

 

And I agree, there are many positive virtues that we should hold firmly to and I suppose that Grace is one of them.

 

But I still suggest taht we are setting ourself up for disappointment if we place our expectations and even our virtues and values on others.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

"people what it all and they want it now and that they deserve everything they want."

 

Now why would they go thinking/believing that?

 

I have no idea why they think this way but I have seen many of this type of people. Through their early life they had hard working parents who gave them everything except the will to be self-sufficient so they somehow believe that everyone owes them something. They never realize that most all who have, have because they worked hard for it.

 

"But there they sit, bitching about those who have but too lazy to get up from in front of the TV and honestly earn what they need."

 

See my post above on the confusion of want/need and the bait n switch^TM

 

Yes, I did read that post and had no problem with it.

 

"And they even blame the government for taking everything from them or for not giving them what they want."

 

Why?

 

I have no idea why. But I hear it quite often. People sit around and blame the government for not taking care of them and they have done nothing to take care of themselves.

 

"There really isn't anything wrong with getting a job and earning an honest wage. That was how I was able to retire in my early 50's."

 

Good for you! Do you think "they" can/can't/don't want to?

 

It's one thing if they can and don't want to, entirely another if they can't.

 

Now this is a horse of a different color. I fully support the concept of taking care of those in society who cannot, for whatever the handicap, take care of themselves. Lao Tzu spoke to this.

 

I am not speaking to these unfortunate people. I am speaking to those who can but would rather live off government welfare. There are many people in the US who take advantage of government welfare when they could be doing something productive. Instead they sit on their butts and we have an influx of illegal aliens willing to risk their life for the opportunity to earn an honest (in their mind) wage. I will never put blame on someone who is willing to work in order to better their life.

 

I do put blame on those who are too lazy to work in order to earn an honest wage or engage in illegal activities because it is easy to screw other people out of their hard-earned wages.

 

Peace & Love!

[The Observer]

 

I do put blame on those who are too lazy to work in order to earn an honest wage or engage in illegal activities because it is easy to screw other people out of their hard-earned wages.

 

Peace & Love!

 

The world isn't perfect, but all eventually get their just rewards or punishments.

[Marblehead]

The world isn't perfect, but all eventually get their just rewards or punishments.

 

You know, I truely want to believe this. I try hard to believe it. Some of my life experiences, observations of life around me, contradicts this assessment. Now, true, I can't see whether they are happy or miserable inside but externally these people seem to be quite happy living off the efforts of others.

 

Well, Hehehe, actually the world is exactly how it should be so I guess it is perfect. But then, when I place my expectations on it things seem to be a bit imperfect. Oh!, I'm so bad!

 

Peace & Love!

[The Observer]

You know, I truely want to believe this. I try hard to believe it. Some of my life experiences, observations of life around me, contradicts this assessment. Now, true, I can't see whether they are happy or miserable inside but externally these people seem to be quite happy living off the efforts of others.

 

Well, Hehehe, actually the world is exactly how it should be so I guess it is perfect. But then, when I place my expectations on it things seem to be a bit imperfect. Oh!, I'm so bad!

 

Peace & Love!

Hmmm...the way I see it a time will come when the lazy need to work and years of sitting around will make it a difficult experience for them later. This is the wisdom of karma/tao to me.

In a sense it's like cheating on a test, yes you may pass the exam, but in the long run when the time comes to put that knowledge (that you should have earned through study) to the test you will find yourself helpless.

Relating more directly to your example, the lazy may be the downfall of a nation, but in the end it's their own boat they're sinking.

[3bob]

From MH:

 

"Okay. You won a cigar with that one. Sometimes I get too concept specific when I am attempting to present an understanding.

 

However, I will still suggest that for self-cultivation we must ignore all externals and concentrate solely on ourself.

Well I agree that there is a certain time and place for the way of the hermit and or hermitic methods, yet "no man is an island" either. Thus we all end up having to deal with both internals and externals. And from a paternal pov. we don't ignore our children or they us, but at some point we want and need for them to grow up and stand on their own two feet!

 

And yes, there are many who view the universe as a living organism. I don't hold to this view but I can see the value in the concept.

Well if all forms are born, live and then pass away including the manifest universe/multiverses then why shouldn't such also be seen as a "living" organisms of vast and various levels? (although I can see your point if one is only speaking of biological organisms)

 

And I agree, there are many positive virtues that we should hold firmly to and I suppose that Grace is one of them.

Grace is the most powerful and far reaching, like the Tao touching the Tao.

 

But I still suggest that we are setting ourself up for disappointment if we place our expectations and even our virtues and values on others.

This is a very important point you've brought up with lots of ramifications! For instance one might then ask what is it that can they count on?? Thus can one count on the Three, or the Two, or the One, or on the un-nameable Tao which are all connected? (btw. if these and also "others" made manifest by such are all connected at what point does a breakdown occur when we can no longer count on or trust such ways, internal or external?)

 

Peace & Love!

Om

Edited August 23, 2010 by 3bob