Marblehead Posted August 23, 2010 Relating more directly to your example, the lazy may be the downfall of a nation, but in the end it's their own boat they're sinking. Yeah. That's what saddens me the most, I suppose. My teenage years were during the 1950's. What a wonderful time of my life that was! But I have seen things going downhill for my country since the late 1960's and that truely saddens me. But I have mine, that I worked very hard and honestly for, so I really shouldn't complain. But I am still sad that things aren't better for the young, not only the US youth, but youth of all nations. True, all things are eventually destroyed but I think they should at least try to live out their full potential. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 23, 2010 From MH: "Okay. You won a cigar with that one. Sometimes I get too concept specific when I am attempting to present an understanding. However, I will still suggest that for self-cultivation we must ignore all externals and concentrate solely on ourself. Well I agree that there is a certain time and place for the way of the hermit and or hermitic methods, yet "no man is an island" either. Thus we all end up having to deal with both internals and externals. And from a paternal pov. we don't ignore our children or they us, but at some point we want and need for them to grow up and stand on their own two feet! Yes, it is the extremely rare person who can live by him/herself for an extended period of time. My amximum is about four days before I have a need to get involved with others. And true, I would think that a person in their late teens would want to get out on their own and experience life first hand but more and more I see the offspring leaving the care of their parents much later in life. Many aspects here but I won't play with the idea here. And yes, there are many who view the universe as a living organism. I don't hold to this view but I can see the value in the concept. Well if all forms are born, live and then pass away including the manifest universe/multiverses then why shouldn't such also be seen as a "living" organisms of vast and various levels? (although I can see your point if one is only speaking of biological organisms) Yep. I really have no arguement with either view. But I have my preferrences of course. And I agree, there are many positive virtues that we should hold firmly to and I suppose that Grace is one of them. Grace is the most powerful and far reaching, like the Tao touching the Tao. I don't know about Tao touching Tao but I can still touch my toes. But I still suggest that we are setting ourself up for disappointment if we place our expectations and even our virtues and values on others. This is a very important point you've brought up with lots of ramifications! For instance one might then ask what is it that can they count on?? Thus can one count on the Three, or the Two, or the One, or on the un-nameable Tao which are all connected? (btw. if these and also "others" made manifest by such are all connected at what point does a breakdown occur when we can no longer count on or trust such ways, internal or external?) Peace & Love! Om Yes, this is a very deep and complex concept. But, just to keep it short, I can count on myself and the processes of nature without question. I have one friend I can count on without question. Beyond that? Well, sure, I count on Taoist philosophy; Tao, One, Two, Three. These are all given. But it doesn't mean that they are always going to be very kind to me. Hehehe. I do still try to believe that everyone is going to do the right and honorable thing but I don't fool myself and I don't believe in magic. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 23, 2010 (edited) Yes, it is the extremely rare person who can live by him/herself for an extended period of time. My amximum is about four days before I have a need to get involved with others. And true, I would think that a person in their late teens would want to get out on their own and experience life first hand but more and more I see the offspring leaving the care of their parents much later in life. Many aspects here but I won't play with the idea here. Yep. I really have no arguement with either view. But I have my preferrences of course. I don't know about Tao touching Tao but I can still touch my toes. Yes, this is a very deep and complex concept. But, just to keep it short, I can count on myself and the processes of nature without question. I have one friend I can count on without question. Beyond that? Well, sure, I count on Taoist philosophy; Tao, One, Two, Three. These are all given. But it doesn't mean that they are always going to be very kind to me. Hehehe. I do still try to believe that everyone is going to do the right and honorable thing but I don't fool myself and I don't believe in magic. Peace & Love! Thanks for your reply back MH, What do you mean by "magic"? To me there are variations of white, black and grey magic; which are all forms of energy/mind manipulations possible through various forms of energy/mind cultivations. But the most powerful "magic" (so to speak) is far beyond those three and can not be touched by any of them... Om " Edited August 23, 2010 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 23, 2010 Thanks for your reply back MH, What do you mean by "magic"? To me there are variations of white, black and grey magic; which are all forms of energy/mind manipulations possible through various forms of energy/mind cultivations. But the most powerful "magic" (so to speak) is far beyond those three and can not be touched by any of them... Om " WoW! I didn't expect you to jump on the "magic" thing but I suppose I should have. I refer to the belief in magic as the belief in things that really don't happen in 'real' life. Now, y'all know that I am a realists. Some would call me a materialist. That's okay. I consider the belief in anything that does not have a 'cause and effect' process that is provable or at least supported by logical hypothesis. So, to believe that all people on the planet are going to begin doing 'the right thing' is one of those thoughts of magic. However, if we take that word and apply it to the wonders of the universe then, sure, there is a lot of magic going on if we wish to make the connection of the words 'wonder' with 'magic'. So I suppose that we could take any statement of 'magic', analyze it, then place it into one of three categories: Provable, Logical, or An unsupported belief. Now, I will never suggest that people shouldn't believe in magic just as I would never suggest that people shouldn't believe in a religion, illusions or delusions. But I will always suggest that one should understand what they truely believe in and why this is so. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 23, 2010 Seems to me that the conundrum largely vanishes if the phrase "living organism" is replaced here with the phrase "dynamic system"... Fair enough Seeker, I'll buy that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 23, 2010 Seems to me that the conundrum largely vanishes if the phrase "living organism" is replaced here with the phrase "dynamic system"... I somehow initially missed this post until 3bob spoke to it. I would agree. Actually, Dr. Wang titled his translation of the TTC "Dynamic Tao and its Manifestations". Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 23, 2010 (edited) I think I might like his translation! I wasn't ware he had written one but now I'll have to look for it. He has a web site. Just search "Dynamic Tao". Here: http://dynamictao.com/ Peace & Love! Edited August 23, 2010 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 23, 2010 WoW! I didn't expect you to jump on the "magic" thing but I suppose I should have. I refer to the belief in magic as the belief in things that really don't happen in 'real' life. Now, y'all know that I am a realists. Some would call me a materialist. That's okay. I consider the belief in anything that does not have a 'cause and effect' process that is provable or at least supported by logical hypothesis. So, to believe that all people on the planet are going to begin doing 'the right thing' is one of those thoughts of magic. However, if we take that word and apply it to the wonders of the universe then, sure, there is a lot of magic going on if we wish to make the connection of the words 'wonder' with 'magic'. So I suppose that we could take any statement of 'magic', analyze it, then place it into one of three categories: Provable, Logical, or An unsupported belief. Now, I will never suggest that people shouldn't believe in magic just as I would never suggest that people shouldn't believe in a religion, illusions or delusions. But I will always suggest that one should understand what they truely believe in and why this is so. Peace & Love! Belief is another one of those tricky words... Imo the definiton of "belief" is at best or should be related to an agnostic like pov. and or along the lines of "suspeneded judgment" since the term belief by itself does not or is not always used to mean that one has personal proof when in the belief stage; yet when one goes beyond that stage then one is no longer dealing with belief(s) per-se but with what they know through direct, 1st hand experience. (and I try to always write or quote things here that I've had at least some direct, 1st hand experience with - otherwise I'd have to preface everything I say with, "I believe" or "I hope". The coming into existence of the material world(s) are last in a very long line of energy realities and also the first to perish, thus the least "real" world when one looks at things or the subject from an energy pov. is this one that seems so solid. Om Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 23, 2010 Belief is another one of those tricky words... Imo the definiton of "belief" is at best or should be related to an agnostic like pov. and or along the lines of "suspeneded judgment" since the term belief by itself does not or is not always used to mean that one has personal proof when in the belief stage; yet when one goes beyond that stage then one is no longer dealing with belief(s) per-se but with what they know through direct, 1st hand experience. (and I try to always write or quote things here that I've had at least some direct, 1st hand experience with - otherwise I'd have to preface everything I say with, "I believe" or "I hope". The coming into existence of the material world(s) are last in a very long line of energy realities and also the first to perish, thus the least "real" world when one looks at things or the subject from an energy pov. is this one that seems so solid. Om Yeah, I generally try to include the phrase "in my opinion" or "I think" in any statement that I make that I probably cannot easily support with factual data. I actually don't like to use the phrase "I believe" because I like to think that my beliefs are subject to change if presented with sufficient data and logic. A statement that made me really think came from Carl Sagan in his Cosmos series. He said "Evolution is not a theroy, it is a fact." Agree, the Manifest is the last phase (as far as we know) of the transmutation of energy. And it is the least long-lasting over time. But it is just as real as all other aspects of energy. (I just had to say that. Hehehe.) Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
