Path of Inquiry

[Yoda]

I've never cared for the path of inquiry, myself. But this thread featuring our fearless webmaster is excellent, and now I am able to see its place:

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=968

[cloud recluse]

I've never cared for the path of inquiry, myself. But this thread featuring our fearless webmaster is excellent, and now I am able to see its place:

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=968

Yoda,I know this is going to sound a bit shallow,and I am not knocking other traditions approaches,but Im really interested to find out if there is a specifically Daoist approach to Inquiry.Are there any daoist equivalents to Dzogchens 'Pointing Out' instructions,for example, didnt formal Zen Koans emerge fron the informal Daoist use of paradoxical language ?Where can I find the Daoist take on all this?Ive been intruiged by the neo-Advaitins literature,and the Dao must be where you start from (& promptly contract away from),in some manner,PRIOR to all the technical yogas.Where would I find authentic Daoist scripture on this ?Any suggestions? Regards,Cloud ( and yes,I am hung up a bit on "being a Daoist" ).

[Yoda]

Well, I think that the jnana path is a fancy name for "positive thinking" and it brews itself up fresh as a meditation by-product within any tradition. I think the reason Yogani makes meditation a prereq is that it is easier to meditate and thereby raise the vibration of one's thoughts than it is to straight up change the frequency of one's thoughts by direct willpower. So as long as the particular taoist lineage has got some meditation going on, there will be some positive thinking in there somewhere!

 

As long as it works, who cares whether it's taoist or not, though? The nice thing about taoism is that it's such a vague term, it's easy to use that as your label for your own homebrewed system.

[sean]

Hey Yoda, you had mentioned in another AYP thread "Meditation is quite up to the task, too. It sets into motion everything else needed, when needed, as needed." ... and I agree 100%, meditation is absolutely essential ... it's just that IMO meditation alone can't fully transform the shadow, especially the aspects of our shadow that have to do with our ethics/relationships with others. I would even go so far as to say that meditation can even deeply exacerbate our interpersonal shadow elements. Meditation opens us to being more sensitive. It's like how Trunk says, eventually mystics tend to get reclusive because they tend to be more open to how things feel, energetically. Meditation increases our potential for bliss and for pain. Most people want to selectively kill off specific emotions, set themselves up against depression and anger and only feel the good stuff. But you can't selectively repress emotions ... so you push away the fear and sadness and you also deaden your potential for love, passion, and bliss.

 

Without ethical training, a contemplative is a timebomb waiting to expode in a way... maybe even worse than just your everyday bored American. We typically spend more time alone than most people (the impulse for which often originates from a shadowed trauma IMO). Then we increase emotional sensitivities through meditation. In our private little sanctuaries this often leads to an increased perception of bliss and so we are tempted to arrange our lives more and more in this happy little new age fantasy around an illusion that we are somehow "getting" more bliss. But the reality (again IMHO) is that we are not "getting" happier, just becoming more sensitive to reality, and paying attention to the underlying bliss and happiness of things as they are. Which is totally cool. And it energizes a lot of positive values, and spills over into how we treat people. But if we repress the fact that we are also opening ourselves up to feeling pain more deeply, if we get smug that we are more blissful than others while subtly armoring ourselves from the fact that we will now always cry with deeper tears at a tragedy, that as we crumble the illusion of separation we also can no longer treat the suffering of other as "theirs" anymore ... it's ours, and we begin to physically feel it ... without this understanding I think we can try to dig deeper and deeper holes of separation, of "us vs. them" ... and a really really bad situation is setup that can lead to guru-disasters, and RJ and Eric fireworks.

 

As for Taoist self-inquiry, I don't think Taoism really addresses this component, it's speciality is a bit different. I listened to a talk recently by Alan Wallace, where he said that the Chinese had Buddhism for personal ethical and spiritual development, Taoism for subtle and gross body cultivation, and Confucism for interpersonal and social ethics. All three were held without contradiction for, as a whole, the Chinese civilization lacked an exclusivist notion that you have to be one thing and then repudiate or dismiss everything else.

 

Just my two cents as aways.

 

Sean

[cloud recluse]

Well, I think that the jnana path is a fancy name for "positive thinking" and it brews itself up fresh as a meditation by-product within any tradition. I think the reason Yogani makes meditation a prereq is that it is easier to meditate and thereby raise the vibration of one's thoughts than it is to straight up change the frequency of one's thoughts by direct willpower. So as long as the particular taoist lineage has got some meditation going on, there will be some positive thinking in there somewhere!

 

As long as it works, who cares whether it's taoist or not, though? The nice thing about taoism is that it's such a vague term, it's easy to use that as your label for your own homebrewed system.

 

 

 

As long as it works, who cares whether it's taoist or not, though? The nice thing about taoism is that it's such a vague term, it's easy to use that as your label for your own homebrewed system.

Chuckle.True enough,but I also like to revel in a shameless fascination with the 'romance' of Daoism,particularly through authors like John Blofeld.So if I can find actual Daoist text refences for something,I find it quite gratifying.And I have come to believe that there are some very particular themes in Daoism,or perhaps just matters of emphasis,that do seem to be saner than other spiritual traditions Regards,Cloud.

[Yoda]

Sean,

 

Sensitivity to reality=greater bliss, you become more sensitive to re-focus on the positive, on the deeper truth, and be the space, dude.

 

Ethical training??? Did I read that right? Who, what, how on that one? Whose ethics? Ethics is superego city, bro. Good luck on that one!

 

if we repress the fact that we are also opening ourselves up to feeling pain more deeply

 

Can't do that. Impossible. The Bodhisattva impulse takes over and you want to transform all pain to wisdom and bliss. It's just natural. Built in. Can't escape it. Wired in all of us, down to a cellular level.

 

-Yoda

[sean]

Ethical training??? Did I read that right? Who, what, how on that one? Whose ethics? Ethics is superego city, bro. Good luck on that one!

Ethical training can be as simple as paying attention to how your behavior effects the depth of your meditation practice. I think it's pretty obvious that going out and punching pregnant women in the stomach and violently raping teenage girls to death will 100%, unequivocably, across the board, no exceptions whatsoever, destroy your meditation practice and probably ruin any chance for awakening in this lifetime. From that extremely clear example, one can begin to derive a gradient of morality that is more or less an accurate roadmap for how to behave in life. It's a superego map only to the same extent that having a map for how and why to do anything that isn't instantly pleasurable regardless of how it effects ourselves or others is a superego map. By this definition meditation practice itself is a superego trip, which it partially is IMO. I don't frequently think in Freudian terms, but I think there is a necessary tension between id and superego that needs to exist or else we become psychopathic hedonists on the one hand, or self-loathing, ascetic accountants on the other.

 

Another very natural form of ethical training is simply asking yourself, "what is good?". The answer (ethics) cannot neccessarily be articulated in simple, verbal terms (fundamentalism). But as contemplatives we should be used to this problem and recognize that this is not a criteria for judging wether something is real or not.

 

The Bodhisattva impulse itself is impossible, which is part of it's power as a koan.

 

"The passions of delusion are inexhaustible.

I vow to extinguish them all at once."

 

This is a call to engage an infinite process of now that can never be accomplished and already is. This is holding both "Form is emptiness" and "Emptiness is form" simultaneously. Yes, the impulse is to move to bliss and wisdom because that is what it good and true and beautiful (ethics) and yet it appears we open up to deeper, more exquisite pain as well. And the contemplative path makes one stronger for this burden ... so that it hurts more but bothers us less.

 

 

Sean

[Cameron]

Sean, awesome post. This is alot of what I have been trying to practice latelly. Actually, Dennis theme for this weeks meeting which I missed since I just got back from my sister's wedding was,

 

"Openness in mind, heart, and senses."

 

 

I tried to pay attention all through the weekend to subtle(or not so subtle) moments where I would close off from others, judge or contract.

 

It's amazing you can get pretty open in your meditations, release and let go of tension of body and mind and the SECOND you come into contact with a new situation that totally throws you off or new people there is an ever so subtle ego manipulation going on. Of course you don't have to be a groomsman at a Catholic wedding where you feel a room of hundreds of people on you(that you barely know) you experience it in everyday life. With the beautiful girl your a little shy to talk to, the new employee who you feel you have to impress, the random person on the street that you avoid because you just don't feel like it.

 

Those moments of "shutting down" are very, very, very interesting to me...

Edited April 24, 2006 by Cameron

[Yoda]

Ethical training can be as simple as paying attention to how your behavior effects the depth of your meditation practice.

 

How about just ethics is just about feeling good and we have a deal.

[sean]

"Openness in mind, heart, and senses."

I tried to pay attention all through the weekend to subtle(or not so subtle) moments where I would close off from others, judge or contract.

...

Those moments of "shutting down" are very, very, very interesting to me...

Cameron, "Jim and His Karma" over on AYP just posted a practice based very much on what you are talking about (I think) ...

 

Via A self-inquiry to try

Here's a dynamite self-inquiry.

 

Pick a moment when you're feeling at peace. Not fighting with the universe. When you have that "ah, life is good" feeling, be it from practice or just a nice chair on the right beach at the right time. It may not happen for a while. Fine. Just wait for it.

 

Then watch your mind. Closely. Observe what takes you out off it. It's very very interesting and very very useful.

 

The practice is exceedingly difficult, because the process that derails your peace will also derail your observation (i.e. you'll forget to observe right at the point when you'll most want to be observing). So one trick is get a timer that beeps every couple minutes. When it beeps, drop everything to examine your peace, your happiness, and (most importantly) the center of your mental attention. Try to piece together the chain of thoughts and feelings that brought you there, and work backward. Don't take time to mull it over or draw conclusions. Just scientifically observe, note, then go back to your business. Do the analysis and draw the conclusions at a later time.

 

If you're imaginative, you can do this right now, in retrospect. Visualize yourself at one of those peak periods we all have (I like the beach image)....and notice what derails it. I'd suggest NOT posting your conclusions here. Let everyone try it freshly. You'll find your preliminary findings are rough and sketchy, but you fine tune it as you really work on this. Best for all to do it individually, IMO.

 

How about just ethics is just about feeling good and we have a deal.

As long as "feeling good" is understood postconventionally, for instance, as an Istha for Eros, yes, absolutely. So, "feeling good" as the actual whole state of being perceived by a wide open field of spacious awareness that is free of aversion to "what is", even if this includes pain.

 

Preconventionally, a psychopath might think that deliberately hurting another human being against their will feels really good. This isn't a postconventional "feel good" hedonist ethic though because the psychopath's awareness is pathologically repressing how deeply he is hurting his own body-mind-soul when he deliberately hurts others. Moreover, the psychopath isn't even aware that his primary drive is not to feel good at all, but for self-destruction, Thanatos.

 

Deal?

 

Sean

[Yoda]

Whenever somebody suggests that one should simply feel good and follow your bliss, inevitably someone counters that concept with the psychopath card.

 

Psychopaths are examples of people who have been taught to ignore their bliss for so long that they've really gotten out of touch with their heart. While they contend that they were having fun killing people, I bet that if you could really feel what they were feeling, it wasn't that much fun after all.

 

Still, anger and agression feels better than victimhood and fear so it really does make Americans feel better to go psychoballistic with our military. Not the highest form of bliss, but it's what's for dinner until we truly get in touch with our feelings to the point that we can see that we create our own reality and don't need to kill others for satisfaction.

 

Do you believe that we are born with the instinct to feel good and is that sufficient guidance? Or do we need ethical education? I think that the whole social/religious idea that we need to "educate" is what inspires children to lose track of their feelings.

 

From this angle, the phrase "ethical training" smells like a bum steer to me.

 

When one sees the link between feelings and manifestations, then one can give the inner and outer laws, jails, and armies a rest.

[sean]

Great post Yoda.

 

Psychopaths are examples of people who have been taught to ignore their bliss for so long that they've really gotten out of touch with their heart. While they contend that they were having fun killing people, I bet that if you could really feel what they were feeling, it wasn't that much fun after all.

Agreed 100%.

 

Do you believe that we are born with the instinct to feel good and is that sufficient guidance? Or do we need ethical education? I think that the whole social/religious idea that we need to "educate" is what inspires children to lose track of their feelings.

 

From this angle, the phrase "ethical training" smells like a bum steer to me.

Yes, I believe that we are born with a deep, powerful impulse toward higher and more inclusive stages of bliss, absolutely. And I also think that there are people who are completely lost and causing enormous suffering for themselves, others, the environment and ultimately back to ourselves again (in the sense that we are all interconnected). This is why teachers arise. To guide us to our higher potential for Eros safely, for the highest good of everyone. I went to 12 years of Catholic school and was raised by fairly strict, practicing Catholic parents, so I know firsthand how seriously crappy ethical training can be. I guess I would say that just because some food sucks doesn't mean we should stop eating. A lot of what typically gets dubbed ethical is just boring, repressive, often fundamentalist, top-down rules. Maybe in extreme cases this was helpful, like 2000 years ago when the great sages were trying to raise up warring tribes to a higher stage of consciousness. But humans are typically more subtle now and IMO respond much better to the kind of ethical training that I imagine you engage in with your children ... like "how do you think that joey felt when you kicked him in the knee?" ... that sort of thing. And personally, I consider a great deal of what we do here to be a highly evolved form of experiential ethical training. I think we agree here, you just don't like the phrasing which is understandable. I'm actually deliberately using the term in an effort to steal it back from the fundamentalists and use it properly because I like doing shit like that.

 

 

Sean

[cloud recluse]

Is anyone experienced with the BigMind process mentioned on the AYP thread ? Regards,Cloud.

[sean]

Is anyone experienced with the BigMind process mentioned on the AYP thread ? Regards,Cloud.

Me.

[cloud recluse]

Me.

Aw comeone man,you cant just say "me".DONT BE SUCH A TEASE Gimme some detail,juicy,juicy detail Regards,Cloud.

[Yoda]

Sean,

 

If Joey got kicked in the knee, then he had manifested it.

 

Kids and animals understand that the tao works in an appropriate and compassionate manner without exception. It's the moralizing parents that dress down all parties everytime someone was about to learn something constructive about cause and effect, that eventually jams the kid's openness and awareness.

 

Junior knows best.

 

-Yoda

[sean]

Sean,

 

If Joey got kicked in the knee, then he had manifested it.

 

Kids and animals understand that the tao works in an appropriate and compassionate manner without exception. It's the moralizing parents that dress down all parties everytime someone was about to learn something constructive about cause and effect, that eventually jams the kid's openness and awareness.

 

Junior knows best.

Ouch. Yeah, I find serious flaws in this kind of new-age metaphysics. And it leads to outrageous beliefs like the Jews manifested the holocaust as way of teaching themselves a lesson. I touched on this in Lozen's journal here:

I think people's confusions on depth of ultimate responsibility like this are issues with mismatching levels of reality. In Kabbalistic terms your truest, truest, most absolute identity is Keter, or more accurately Ein Soph. Nothing can be said about Ein Soph, including that nothing can be said about Ein Soph. At this level of Being/Nothingness, "you" are responsible for everything that occurs to Yael. And to Freeform. And to Sean. And to your friends dog. And to the Earth's soil. And to the Sun. And to the entire manifest universe that you are both and neither a container for and interpenetrating as. But now zoom in a bit to Yael's little interdependent vibration as a living body in Malkuth. Here you are a separate form, and IMO, exactly as you say, there are a thousand other influences merging to shape your individual destiny. So, as Yael the relatively independent form in Malkut, you can only hope to control your responses to what comes into your life. I think saying Yael, as a discrete entity in in Malkut, has Ein Soph level responsibility is a mismatch and leads to dangerous, even mentally unstable conclusions like you dreamed up Hurricane Katrina, the Jews invoked the holocaust on themselves to have that kind of experience, etc.

 

Also, I think idealizing children falls on the elevationist side of the pre/trans fallacy:

On the other hand, if one is sympathetic with higher or mystical states, but one still confuses pre and trans, then one will elevate all prerational states to some sort of transrational glory (the infantile primary narcissism, for example, is seen as an unconscious slumbering in the mystico unio). Jung and his followers, of course, often take this route, and are forced to read a deeply transpersonal and spiritual status into states that are merely indissociated and undifferentiated and actually lacking any sort of integration at all.

 

Enlightenment, or "One in the Tao" to me is not a state of prerational "ignorance as bliss", but a postrational state of awareness in which we can function rationally and also remain aware of the undivided ground of being. Children totally need guidance. And IMO it's not parental/social guidance that causes a "fall from Tao", it's birth, or more accurately conception. A child cannot raise itself and would, in all probability die within hours of being left alone in a forest. Likewise a child needs to be taught a human language which, by an even more absolute idealization of child-as-Sage, would be seen as a restrictive imposition since language has more of the top-down "jamming" of rules, and inherent dichotomies of subject and object than a simple suggestion to a child that it's not conducive to long-term happiness to bear cruelty to others. Children looks up to adults for examples and help on how to behave and, personally, I think it's letting them down to fantasize that they are mystically born in touch with all the answers and can figure everything out themselves. Heh, this strikes me as like the quintessential detached guy way of raising kids though ... cool in doses but it probably leaves Mom more work as I doubt women share this view much.

 

Ahhh, what do I know? *shrug*

 

Sean

[Yoda]

Deal's off, I'm too outrageous for you, bro!

[sean]

Deal's off, I'm too outrageous for you, bro!

Come on dude! Only $19.95!!

 

Limited time.

 

[cloud recluse]

Sean,I have to agree with you here.The pre/trans distinction is certainly a useful tool .I dont think Joey & animals speculate much about these things,they just react to them.In infant humans,we see an immense spontaneity of reaction,a quality we would like to keep & nurture,along with their immense openness to experience.But we also see their reflex narcissism,a quality we would like them to expand out of into something broader.They live in a kind of innocent selfishness,if that makes any sense,& its quite appropriate to the infant.But its also immensely vulnerable to pain & terror,in the face of which that wonderful openness can quickly shut down.

 

So it is not yet the Openness of Enlightenment,just the precious cognitive Vitality of the child,that vital quality that should fuel & motivate conscious adult yogas,if it has not been crushed. I think Joey manifests bugger all at that point in his life.The Dao manifests,& Joey is certainly a sub-category of the Dao,BUT the Dao is NOT a subcategory of Joeys rudimentary,easily dissipated Intent.Dont blur the categories,coz then you HAVE got Jews manifesting the Holocaust & it all becomes a bit distorted

 

Opening your heart to the pain of the world is a daunting undertaking,& its tempting to shut down with the old egoic stunt of blaming the victim. I DONT KNOW IF YODA IS DOING THIS,SO THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY DIRECTED AT HIM!!(Im not actually sure if Ive understood him),Im just giving my take on one consequence of pre/trans confusion.Interestingly enough,while I initially got the term from Ken Wilber,it was later confirmed for me by an Indian Laya Yoga Guru.His language wasnt as precise as Wilbers,but he did make exactly the same distinction. Anyhow Sean,gimme some gossip on BigMind ya great big tease Regards,Cloud.

Edited April 26, 2006 by cloud recluse

[sean]

Nice post Cloud. It's ironic, all this last week I've been thinking a lot about these very issues ... I love Wilber's pre/trans, and I think it's an essential piece to really grok. And then I also have a deep affinity for phenomenon that seem to challenge it's logic, at least the way Wilber formulates it. If you are interested, I just finished reading this fairly dense piece touching on some of these issues ... where pre/trans starts to breakdown when confronted with, for example, the possibility that children can access genuine transpersonal states before moving up to a rational stage of development, and perhaps more importantly the controversy over wether transpersonal states can be accessed "through the back door" by digging back to prerational content, such as occurs in the rebirthing work of Stanislav Grof, and also in some pagan rites, shamanism, magick, and even Taoist alchemy.

 

Also, while we're on the subject, Alexander Lowen's book Narcissism presents a unique theory on child narcissism, basically that it's not inherent but an unnatural reaction to seductive/manipulative parenting and would not develop otherwise. Not sure I agree with his whole line of reasoning, but the book is very interesting and I appreciate Lowen's work.

 

Anyway, sorry for the tease, Big Mind is pretty cool. Check it out. It's like a cross between parts work, gestalt therapy, Dzogchen, Advaita and Zen. Genpo Roshi asks to speak to various parts of you, starting with parts that are typically unconscious and/or rejected and that get in the way of moving into samadhi. So, "can I speak with the controller?" .... and then he will basically give the controller a pat on the back for the great job it's doing. Affirming each part. Letting it go. Then maybe "the fixer", "the judge", etc. Then he starts just directly calling forward big parts that most meditators assume take years to even taste, the reality being more like we can get a taste very simply at any time, it just takes years of meditation to stabilize them. So, "can I speak to the nongrasping nonseeking mind?" ... *bam* If you have even a small degree of subtle consciousness I think by this point you are sinking into a taste of a nice samadhi buzz. From there he might go on to various other layers, folding this "big mind" into "big heart" and then often ending in calling up a whole, functional self that embodies all of these parts successfully. So I only have a little bit of experience working with this process, and the idea of working with samadhi awareness as if it were an instantly accessible part that can be called up at any time is pretty unique and interesting, but IMVHO I see Big Mind as being more useful to beginning meditators who need these tastes of formless bliss to find the deeper motivation for a more disciplined zazen practice. I don't know enough about Genpo Roshi or the full Big Mind process on the DVD to know how this is addressed. It's possible at an advanced level Big Mind is used more as a preparatory mental cleansing before a longer zazen (or any) practice .... I think this could be a very powerful use for it.

 

Hope this helps,

Sean

 

[edit] Another way of checking out Big Mind is through the Integral Life Practice Starter Kit ... this brainchild of Ken Wilber and teachers from various traditions he has drawn under his AQAL umbrella. I haven't personally looked into this yet as it's a little pricey ($200) but comes with a lot of content.

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[cloud recluse]

Hey sean.

Must say I dont think pre/trans necessarily excludes kids having trans experiences.Their day to day bodymind mechanism may still be adapting & refining its prepersonal-to-personal trajectory,but trans can erupt any time.I mean,it erupts in "adults" with NO discernable trans adaptions whatsoever!I think Wilber has allready answered this critcism somewhere ( though I am NOT a "Wilberian"!!)anyhow.I use pre/trans for mapping a trajectory of adaptive development in the bodymind,but that bodymind is ALWAYS arising in a transpersonal ground,even if it contracts away from feeling the full consequences of that everpresent ground.The transpersonal surrouds & saturates us,emerging without warning.

 

And as I said,I dont just get the concept from Wilber.A Laya Yoga Guru from India tried to express the same idea to me,but he was struggling to find the right language.Do you want me to hunt down Wilbers responses to those criticisms?Ive probably got them stashed away somewhere in my dusty archives ( does that sound exotic,"dusty archives",Im going for a sort of "archaic & noble scholar" image )

 

This Big Mind is grabbing me though.Having read the Nondual inductions from the neoAdvaitins like Arjuna Ardagh,A Zen angle really appeals to me.I concur with your idea of such things providing an inspiring taste to the beginner.The Dao should somehow be tasted at the start of spirituality,not at some ever receding end.

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Yoda]

Narcissism is the key to greatness! It's the secret ingredient of anybody who is successful and passionate about something. I always think of Mother Theresa, Bill Gates and Michael Jordan--they are 100% wrapped up in their own thing and don't give a rip about what others think. Mentally, if not physically, they play outside the rules. That's what gives them the power to transcend the ordinary person who is always trying to please their inner mommy and society's panel of educators in the name of morality and thus divide their own energy, reducing their effectiveness and happiness.

[cloud recluse]

Narcissism has fuck all to do with self-direction or devotion to a goal!!Its a substitue obsession with self-image,as distinct from actual accomplishment,to cover up an inner impotence & futility !!Narcissists are shallow cretins desperately running from their own inner desolation.Occasionally,they can be used for nice wall hangings .Beyond that,they are boring,& far too flaky to accomplish things of interest.Such poor,sad little turds are the best argument for compulsory eugenics I can think of.

 

Yours in pure,nonjudgemental gushy love,Cloud.