Meow Meow

[Marblehead]

Go Cat, Go!!!

 

Peace & Love!

[Mal]

 

I like how they got most of the body language, the looking to see who was watching and the joy at the end.

 

But a bit too much caring in the dropping in the bin part. So like most revenge fantasies, it's implementation in reality left me feeling vaguely disappointed and dirty

[Birch]

"So yeah, if any gods, deities, immortals, buddhas, saints, etc are willing to pay me a visit, you know where I am so please come show me something, in the physical realm though please (no dream visits)."

 

Alright! Where do you live?

[Guest paul walter]

what are your thoughts on this?

 

 

Why would anyone do that? How can they do that? Is it ok to do that? Isn't she a little old to be doing that? How does this make you feel? why?

 

 

 

It's just an extension of acceptable behaviours except with a hidden camera that makes it 'look' hidden and outrageous.

[Guest paul walter]

In any event, casual cruelty is not made OK by the existence of institutionalized cruelty.

 

 

Why not? I mean, since the 'individual' is thoroughly influenced by the culture of generalised institutionality who's to know the difference/who does know the difference? Of course I know what you're pointing too but really don't think it's as clear as all that. Ultimately I think the existance of "institutionalised cruelty" 'justifies' all (perceived) cruelty and perhaps vice versa. Of course no cruelty is "ok" but a world in which that idea could take hold would be quite another world, one that wouldn't settle for reformist divisions between "individual" and "institution"... Paul

Edited August 28, 2010 by paul walter

[Taomeow]

Why not?

 

Because the casual realm of private action is the field of application of free will. Whereas and institutional realm, such as that of state-enforced laws, is where one's free will may or may not have a field of application. For purposes of private decisions, we are empowered, and therefore responsible. Ergo, casual cruelty can't be justified by the widespread existence of institutionalized cruelty.

 

Does it make sense?

[Guest paul walter]

Because the casual realm of private action is the field of application of free will. Whereas and institutional realm, such as that of state-enforced laws, is where one's free will may or may not have a field of application. For purposes of private decisions, we are empowered, and therefore responsible. Ergo, casual cruelty can't be justified by the widespread existence of institutionalized cruelty.

 

Does it make sense?

 

 

Yes...and no. Of course I know this but without wanting to sell the human race short (much! ) in terms of the self-regulting/self-knowing ability of individuals I must say I don't agree with this view at all. It seems very naive to assume that the individual and class, state, institutions etc are divisible in this way. Isn't it the oppossite to this that states and corporate entities have been trying to blur for over a hundred years? This isn't just an intellectual point for me--I have to contend with this paradigmatic reality everyday. Surely as a taoist the very least one can admit is that people often have really no idea of causal relation in their own minds, body functions and 'external' relations with their environment. Paul

[Taomeow]

Yes...and no. Of course I know this but without wanting to sell the human race short (much! ) in terms of the self-regulting/self-knowing ability of individuals I must say I don't agree with this view at all. It seems very naive to assume that the individual and class, state, institutions etc are divisible in this way. Isn't it the oppossite to this that states and corporate entities have been trying to blur for over a hundred years? This isn't just an intellectual point for me--I have to contend with this paradigmatic reality everyday. Surely as a taoist the very least one can admit is that people often have really no idea of causal relation in their own minds, body functions and 'external' relations with their environment. Paul

Yes, it can get complicated. If a poisoned water/food/air supply plus electromagnetic pollution plus brainwashing plus medical dumbing down etc. etc. cumulatively result in a kind of behaviors that effectively eliminate every trace of free will just as they are designed to, then you can't blame anyone for anything, looks like. I used to struggle with this paradox myself, for years. Don't blame the perpetrator, she victimizes someone else only because she was victimized herself, and if she wasn't... Here's the crux of the matter I think. If she wasn't, would she be evil free? Would she be normal, kind, caring if she wasn't so damaged?

 

Well, we don't know. We can choose to believe it, we can choose to believe that wrongs people commit that are not their fault because they never had a real choice as to who to evolve into should be forgiven. But I've come to think that this forgiving stance increases suffering by not giving anyone any pointers as to the true nature of their actions. So I decided at one point that I will not "believe" anything, that I will just react to "what is, as is." So when I see cruelty, I don't dilute it with intellectualizing, rationalizing, justifying it as the outcome of a particular chain of events beyond an individual's control. I choose to just react as a normal human being.

 

I think someone, somewhere must take responsibility for acting normal, for allowing normal human feelings to exist in the world -- otherwise the very pattern, the very template for "normal" will be eliminated from our collective consciousness. I think this is why I'm here. I don't mean TTB, I mean this life. Some people are here to accomplish something grandiose. Me, I'm here to try to uphold the pattern of "normal human feelings" and "normal human reactions." Who knows -- maybe it's critical that yet another human being chooses to just react as a normal human being -- maybe without this, extermination of basic human normalcy, which used to be our genetic birthright, will be accomplished sooner and with more hopeless finality.

 

I stand against this plight of humanity... whether alone or with seven billion others, I don't care. I stand against dehumanization of humans, and this means, in particular, that "someone" who threw the cat in the garbage bin is not interchangeable for me with seven billion others who could have, would have, might have done the same thing. They are not interchangeable parts of some dead machine yet, are they? Not yet. I wouldn't do it. You wouldn't do it. Someone else "might have, could have, would have..." but she "did." For me it's enough information -- I hold HER responsible for the deed she did, and not you and not myself and not even the shadow government.

 

If no spark of free human choice is left, then whoever does whatever doesn't matter anymore because it is not human anymore, and I can't really be the judge of a species I don't belong to. If everything someone does is exempt from personal responsibility by 100%, this someone is not human anymore. If it's the plight of "everybody," ditto. But I stand against this plight... so it's not 100% yet even if no one else does.

[That Guy]

"So yeah, if any gods, deities, immortals, buddhas, saints, etc are willing to pay me a visit, you know where I am so please come show me something, in the physical realm though please (no dream visits)."

 

Alright! Where do you live?

I have left my exact location all over this post, you just have to read the energy instead of the text

[Guest paul walter]

Yes, it can get complicated. If a poisoned water/food/air supply plus electromagnetic pollution plus brainwashing plus medical dumbing down etc. etc. cumulatively result in a kind of behaviors that effectively eliminate every trace of free will just as they are designed to, then you can't blame anyone for anything, looks like. I used to struggle with this paradox myself, for years. Don't blame the perpetrator, she victimizes someone else only because she was victimized herself, and if she wasn't... Here's the crux of the matter I think. If she wasn't, would she be evil free? Would she be normal, kind, caring if she wasn't so damaged?

 

Well, we don't know. We can choose to believe it, we can choose to believe that wrongs people commit that are not their fault because they never had a real choice as to who to evolve into should be forgiven. But I've come to think that this forgiving stance increases suffering by not giving anyone any pointers as to the true nature of their actions. So I decided at one point that I will not "believe" anything, that I will just react to "what is, as is." So when I see cruelty, I don't dilute it with intellectualizing, rationalizing, justifying it as the outcome of a particular chain of events beyond an individual's control. I choose to just react as a normal human being.

 

I think someone, somewhere must take responsibility for acting normal, for allowing normal human feelings to exist in the world -- otherwise the very pattern, the very template for "normal" will be eliminated from our collective consciousness. I think this is why I'm here. I don't mean TTB, I mean this life. Some people are here to accomplish something grandiose. Me, I'm here to try to uphold the pattern of "normal human feelings" and "normal human reactions." Who knows -- maybe it's critical that yet another human being chooses to just react as a normal human being -- maybe without this, extermination of basic human normalcy, which used to be our genetic birthright, will be accomplished sooner and with more hopeless finality.

 

I stand against this plight of humanity... whether alone or with seven billion others, I don't care. I stand against dehumanization of humans, and this means, in particular, that "someone" who threw the cat in the garbage bin is not interchangeable for me with seven billion others who could have, would have, might have done the same thing. They are not interchangeable parts of some dead machine yet, are they? Not yet. I wouldn't do it. You wouldn't do it. Someone else "might have, could have, would have..." but she "did." For me it's enough information -- I hold HER responsible for the deed she did, and not you and not myself and not even the shadow government.

 

If no spark of free human choice is left, then whoever does whatever doesn't matter anymore because it is not human anymore, and I can't really be the judge of a species I don't belong to. If everything someone does is exempt from personal responsibility by 100%, this someone is not human anymore. If it's the plight of "everybody," ditto. But I stand against this plight... so it's not 100% yet even if no one else does.

 

 

Yes, taomeow. I 'am' your first two paragraphs to the letter and used to be the next three (also to the letter). I have "decided" it is essentially a complete waste of time to act as an example to the world, rather to be one without so much of the interaction (but this point would require some explaining for someone to understand why I know it to be the correct way for 'me' and I don't explain the inexplicable). I guess one of the hardest lessons to learn is that any notion of humanism we have inherited contains the seeds of our own destruction (as humans) and needs at some stage to be left behind in the kindergarten of life. I actually believe the moving on from this position is the correct way to go (and may others 'follow'). I find there are too many variables against a person learning fundamentals--most seem to be not in the position to be "half empty" these days? Paul.

Edited August 28, 2010 by paul walter

[Marblehead]

It's just an extension of acceptable behaviours except with a hidden camera that makes it 'look' hidden and outrageous.

 

Well, it's not acceptable in my world.

 

Peace & Love!

[joeblast]

 

Well, we don't know. We can choose to believe it, we can choose to believe that wrongs people commit that are not their fault because they never had a real choice as to who to evolve into should be forgiven. But I've come to think that this forgiving stance increases suffering by not giving anyone any pointers as to the true nature of their actions. So I decided at one point that I will not "believe" anything, that I will just react to "what is, as is." So when I see cruelty, I don't dilute it with intellectualizing, rationalizing, justifying it as the outcome of a particular chain of events beyond an individual's control. I choose to just react as a normal human being.

 

Moral equivalence is such a bane! There is no reason to rationalize acts that are at root nothing but some form of detriment to another.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Again, I say the thing we need to look at is her. Why did she do it? What were the events that led to her doing this? Can we find compassion for her? She must have been damaged somewhere along the line herself.

 

If she was not damaged, and she is a sociopath and therefore has a defective brain and mind, does she deserve our compassion? Maybe not.

Sociopaths feel no compassion or care for the well being of others, so they do not deserve it from us, and only perhaps deserve to be ostracized and punished.

[Mal]

Everyone "deserves" compassion, even more so with those that don't deserve compassion. Yet we qualify into deserving and undeserving.

 

Punishment is an extremely poor way to attempt to modify behavior. Yet it is our societies usual 1st choice.

 

Weird isn't it.

[Marblehead]

Everyone "deserves" compassion, even more so with those that don't deserve compassion. Yet we qualify into deserving and undeserving.

 

Punishment is an extremely poor way to attempt to modify behavior. Yet it is our societies usual 1st choice.

 

Weird isn't it.

 

On the other hand, I can be very compassionate "after" one had paid for their wrong-doing and has shown that they wish to be a better person.

 

No, we should not place the responsibility of compassion on the innocent. We need to place blame on the wrong-doer, then, if appropriate, offer compassion.

 

Peace & Love!

[Guest paul walter]

Well, it's not acceptable in my world.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

'ceptance got nothin' to do with it----it is the world. Even the animal 'welfare' people usually have no problem putting down animals they 'can't' accomodate in their pounds etc. It's just 'realistic' behaviour in a world of economic realities (abortion doesn't seem to get this reaction for eg). Paul

[z00se]

On the other hand, I can be very compassionate "after" one had paid for their wrong-doing and has shown that they wish to be a better person.

 

No, we should not place the responsibility of compassion on the innocent. We need to place blame on the wrong-doer, then, if appropriate, offer compassion.

 

Peace & Love!

 

It's not a matter of should / should not do something the fact is that "we" needn't do anything. There are plenty of others who will do that for us.

 

We should not TRY to seek to find what is right and wrong, good or bad, deserving or undeserving. Only see what IS.

 

To divide into these categories is to judge and a waste of effort. Effort to judge and a reduced ability to percieve at the same time.

 

People cloud their ability to see the truth of the situation by focusing on what they want to see and missing everything else.

 

I think trying to discuss philosophical matters is useless because it is trying to measure and give rules to the unmeasurable and unruling. It is just perfect how it is... that is all.

[Marblehead]

It's not a matter of should / should not do something the fact is that "we" needn't do anything. There are plenty of others who will do that for us.

 

Hi Zoose,

 

I do understand your point of view even though I disagree with it.

 

It is my opinion that if there is a wrong, and we can do something about it, we should do something about it.

 

In my life 'right' and 'wrong' matter. I will not allow 'wrong' into my life.

 

And even though from the point of view of Tao things are exactly how they are supposed to be at this (or any) moment in time it does not mean that I should sit idly by while 'wrong' is being done.

 

If I act and stop the wrong-doing things will still be exactly how they are supposed to be except there will be fewer people being hurt.

 

I much prefer living in security rather than be concerned if someone is going to invade my property and take or destroy what I have worked very hard for or even cause me harm.

 

And while I can't tell you what I would have done if that woman had done that to one of my cats I'm pretty sure it would not have been something pretty.

 

Peace & Love!

[z00se]

 

 

It is my opinion that if there is a wrong, and we can do something about it, we should do something about it.

 

In my life 'right' and 'wrong' matter. I will not allow 'wrong' into my life.

 

And even though from the point of view of Tao things are exactly how they are supposed to be at this (or any) moment in time it does not mean that I should sit idly by while 'wrong' is being done.

 

If I act and stop the wrong-doing things will still be exactly how they are supposed to be except there will be fewer people being hurt.

 

I much prefer living in security rather than be concerned if someone is going to invade my property and take or destroy what I have worked very hard for or even cause me harm.

 

And while I can't tell you what I would have done if that woman had done that to one of my cats I'm pretty sure it would not have been something pretty.

 

Peace & Love!

 

'Wrong' is just your opinion as 'wrong', it isn't that anything is actually "wrong". The fact that you think right and wrong matter is slowing your development. Just give it up

 

So what if you worked all day tirelessly to stop all these so called 'wrong doings' and if you slept only 2 hours a day, every day but you actually managed to convince every new wrong doer that they were wrong and they promised to stop. Would you be happyier then? I doubt it. You'd just see more wrong doings. Why? Because you're practicing at finding them. Wouldn't it be better to practice doing something that actually made you feel good instead?

 

Where are you going with all this. What do you want to acheive?

[Marblehead]

'Wrong' is just your opinion as 'wrong', it isn't that anything is actually "wrong". The fact that you think right and wrong matter is slowing your development. Just give it up

 

Hehehe. No. I am fully developed, thank you.

 

So what if you worked all day tirelessly to stop all these so called 'wrong doings' and if you slept only 2 hours a day, every day but you actually managed to convince every new wrong doer that they were wrong and they promised to stop. Would you be happyier then? I doubt it. You'd just see more wrong doings. Why? Because you're practicing at finding them. Wouldn't it be better to practice doing something that actually made you feel good instead?

 

Yes, I would be much happier. No, I don't go out looking for wrong-doers. When I go out I always expect that everyone is going to do the right thing. More often than not this is what I find. The wrong-doers are a small minority.

 

Oh!, I am always doing things that cause me peace & contentment. That is why I am so peaceful and contented. And I will not allow anyone to destroy my peace & contentment.

 

Where are you going with all this. What do you want to acheive?

 

I'm not going anywhere. I am exactly where I am supposed to be. Even when I go somewhere I am still exactly where I am supposed to be. And I will make every effort to maintain my peace & contentment wherever I might be. And I will always try to do the right thing. And if that requires me to get involved in stopping a wrong-doer from doing harm to me or someone else then that is what I will do.

 

Just because shit happens doesn't mean that we have to constantly walk in it. Avoid it if you can. If you can't avoid it then clean it up.

 

Achieve? Me? I'm done with that stuff. There is nothing else I need do, no place for me to go. But I will insure that I live in peace & contentment to the maximum of my potential. And I will help others along when I have the opportunity.

 

I will not allow "not-Tao" into my life.

 

Peace & Love!

[Guest paul walter]

Hehehe. No. I am fully developed, thank you.

 

Achieve? Me? I'm done with that stuff. There is nothing else I need do, no place for me to go. But I will insure that I live in peace & contentment to the maximum of my potential. And I will help others along when I have the opportunity.

 

I will not allow "not-Tao" into my life.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

You can see that this is a declaraton of war? Against the world, therefore yourself.

[Marblehead]

You can see that this is a declaraton of war? Against the world, therefore yourself.

 

No Dear. It is a statement of fact. You shall not pollute my good intentions. No one shall do that as can be witnessed by my posts on this forum.

 

I am at peace with myself and my world. Peace shall reign in my world even at the risk of war but that would be only a last resort.

 

And even if war did come it would be only because someone had tried to eliminate my right to exist in peace & contentment within "MY" world.

 

I have no intention of trying to change the world. It can go to hell in a hand-basket for all I care. But "my" world will remain the way "I" want it to be.

 

You see, I am not tring to change the world nor am I trying to change anyone's beliefs or even prevent them from exercising their free will. But if they come into "my" world then "my" rules apply.

 

And yes, wrong-doers doing their 'wrong' things (according to "my" rules) will be prevented from doing so if it is within my capacity to prevent such.

 

Let's not be confused, Okay? I am not you. You are not me. You have your rules; I have mine. If we meet on the street I would hope that we can respect each other's rules. Peace would reign. But if you wish to cause me harm I can promise a war.

 

No one on this planet should allow others to do intentional harm to others. Wrong-doers must be stopped with whatever means are available with whatever amount of force is required to accomplish this.

 

Abusers must be stopped. Abuse is a wrong. I don't care how one looks at it. Abuse implies intention. They mean to do harm. That is not Tao.

 

However, if one wishes to live in such conditions then that is "their" choice. Remain passive and die. Tao won't care.

 

I care!

 

Peace & Love!

[z00se]

No one on this planet should allow others to do intentional harm to others. Wrong-doers must be stopped with whatever means are available with whatever amount of force is required to accomplish this.

 

Abusers must be stopped. Abuse is a wrong. I don't care how one looks at it. Abuse implies intention. They mean to do harm. That is not Tao.

 

However, if one wishes to live in such conditions then that is "their" choice. Remain passive and die. Tao won't care.

 

I care!

 

Peace & Love!

 

The tao has people like you. People who refuse to turn a blind eye even if it is for their own benefit. It needs (well not really, but i'm glad they are there) people like you. Not everyone (very few infact) can give up everything for happiness but it is those others happiness that you can bring about more easily (well only those who also cannot blend with the tao) too. I feel what you say and i have partial agreement. However that is not what those who practice the tao follow. Do what you will. The world will always shine in my eyes

 

Peace and love to you too mate. Enjoy your day because it really is wonderful =]

[z00se]

I also must comment:

 

Your honour and merit hold society up. Keep it proud. It is to be commended. But the state of the society isn't worried about by the taoist... nothing is. There are many things within society that can make you unhappy. Taoism allows you to live in society happily, regardless of the state of society. Good on you for trying to remove evils for those who can see. Your victories will only be short lived however. The balance of good and evil will always remain the same... a balance. When you can see beyond good and evil there only is what is. There is only left the perfection of the tao.

[Marblehead]

The tao has people like you. People who refuse to turn a blind eye even if it is for their own benefit. It needs (well not really, but i'm glad they are there) people like you. Not everyone (very few infact) can give up everything for happiness but it is those others happiness that you can bring about more easily (well only those who also cannot blend with the tao) too. I feel what you say and i have partial agreement. However that is not what those who practice the tao follow. Do what you will. The world will always shine in my eyes

 

Peace and love to you too mate. Enjoy your day because it really is wonderful =]

 

Are you sure about what I highlighted in red?

 

Yes, the world will always shine in my eyes as well. Life is wonderful! It can be even more so if people did the right thing more often.

 

Yeah, you have a wonderful day as well. Mine is going quite well so far (working at the fish ponds).

 

Peace & Love!