Meow Meow

[Marblehead]

I also must comment:

 

Your honour and merit hold society up. Keep it proud. It is to be commended. But the state of the society isn't worried about by the taoist... nothing is. There are many things within society that can make you unhappy. Taoism allows you to live in society happily, regardless of the state of society. Good on you for trying to remove evils for those who can see. Your victories will only be short lived however. The balance of good and evil will always remain the same... a balance. When you can see beyond good and evil there only is what is. There is only left the perfection of the tao.

 

 

WoW! What a post! You get on my case after giving me a wonderful compliment. Hehehe.

 

But you are right. I have said before, everything matters but nothing matters. That is, short term, everything matters; long term, nothing matters.

 

However, my brain won't allow me to get 'beyond good and evil'. Dualistic thinking, which is what the brain does, dictates that there is a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way. The Way of Tao, IMO, is the 'right' way. And this is the path I follow.

 

Peace & Love!

[That Guy]

Hate to grim things up again, but I would rather post it here than on a thread new called "woof woof". And in this case it is a much worse scenario, how can someone be so cold towards the living?

 

WARNING, if you aren't an emotional zombie or evil, this will probably ruin your day

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb4_1283184704

[effilang]

I uploaded that to youtube this afternoon and it was going viral until YT took it down due to animal cruelty.

 

I had titled it HEARTLESS girl drowns puppies in river... HEARTLESS i SAY!

 

Was she too lazy to leave them at the pound? - I am sure they would have found very happy owners there, rather she submits the poor defenseless creatures to such a cruel fate.

 

She's really raged up the internet and people have already come together to find out who she is and i believe they have her facebook and whereabouts.

 

Honestly i'd be scared if i was her. I know some pretty angry animal lovers.

Animal cruelty is a no no, especially after watching Disney's Brother Bear 1 and 2 this morning, i am in a bit of a rage myself lol.

Edited August 31, 2010 by effilang

[Mal]

[That Guy]

I don't even know what to say about people like her, they are sick and evil. thats right EVIL, read the word over and over and then reject its existence because you came up with some theory and mind play on why EVIL doesn't exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway Tao oneness and practitioner guys, I have a question......

 

 

So you accept all is one with the Tao and therefore all is beautiful and perfect etc.

At the same time you say you follow the Tao, meaning the "others" do not follow the Tao.

So if others do not follow the Tao, how can you consider them part of the Tao and "perfect"? Ok maybe they physically are part of the tao, but their mental plane sure isn't.

 

Are you not contradicting yourself by accepting as perfect and part of the Tao those who do not follow the Tao?

 

 

Also the idea that the Tao is not perfect is in contradiction with your claim that everything in the Tao is perfect. If the Tao is truly perfect, the idea of its imperfection should not exist in the first place.

All is Tao, but that doesn't mean all is as it "should" be, like the Tao was and is meant to be the way it is, and cannot be changed.

 

So if you can possibly get your mind around what I have tried to express above, you will see my point, the Tao is there to be reshaped by us however we see fit. And those who simply accept things can't change because Tao is what it is. are either afraid or feel powerless to reshape the Tao into something better.

[Mal]

(I'm not sure someone that young could be "evil" but rather seems to have been taught that sort of behaviour is somehow acceptable )

 

So you accept all is one with the Tao and therefore all is beautiful and perfect etc.

 

No. It's not therefor "insert desired quality". The Tao just is. Beautifull/ugly, good/evil all extremes are included.

 

All is Tao, but that doesn't mean all is as it "should" be.

 

Exactly. Although can we truly know how things "should be"? I think we can have a pretty good idea, but not always know.

[Guest paul walter]

No Dear. It is a statement of fact. You shall not pollute my good intentions. No one shall do that as can be witnessed by my posts on this forum.

 

I am at peace with myself and my world. Peace shall reign in my world even at the risk of war but that would be only a last resort.

 

And even if war did come it would be only because someone had tried to eliminate my right to exist in peace & contentment within "MY" world.

 

I have no intention of trying to change the world. It can go to hell in a hand-basket for all I care. But "my" world will remain the way "I" want it to be.

 

You see, I am not tring to change the world nor am I trying to change anyone's beliefs or even prevent them from exercising their free will. But if they come into "my" world then "my" rules apply.

 

 

 

I'll modify my original statement then: you have already declared war, you intend to win and also have no intention to call it "war". How about calling it "creative defence"?

[Marblehead]

Hate to grim things up again, but I would rather post it here than on a thread new called "woof woof". And in this case it is a much worse scenario, how can someone be so cold towards the living?

 

WARNING, if you aren't an emotional zombie or evil, this will probably ruin your day

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb4_1283184704

 

Well, Y'all already know my opinions concerning things like this so I will not speak to the event.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

How about calling it "creative defence"?

 

Hehehe. Sure, you can call it anything you wish. They are, afterall, only labels.

 

The facts and reality is the only thing that really matters.

 

Yes, I can promise you, in that latest video the girl would be in the water if I was there and so would the person with the camera.

 

But, so what if I win at defending myself and other people from being abused? Is there a law on any book anywhere that suggests that this is a crime? I think not.

 

Teddy told us to "walk softly and carry a big stick". However, I have found that if I walk loudly I don't have to carry a big stick. Kinda' like walking a dry creek or river bed in the desert. Rattlesnake abound! But if you make enough noise it give the snakes time to find a secure place so they no longer have a reason to strike you.

 

Peace & Love!

[Guest paul walter]

But, so what if I win at defending myself and other people from being abused? Is there a law on any book anywhere that suggests that this is a crime? I think not.

 

Teddy told us to "walk softly and carry a big stick". However, I have found that if I walk loudly I don't have to carry a big stick. Kinda' like walking a dry creek or river bed in the desert. Rattlesnake abound! But if you make enough noise it give the snakes time to find a secure place so they no longer have a reason to strike you.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Well if you walk aware and quietly they don't see you coming and you can get out of the way first so everyone wins and you avoid confrontation. I think that's one of the secrets in life. As for the first sentence, don't be so sure the logic of that stands as you would like to think it does! In my large experience anything is possible in a world where the idea of 'justice' relies on the abilities of the sense/mind matrix of rather poorly developed specimens (humans) in that area. Some of the finest people in the 'justice' system would have considerable records for criminal activity if proles like us had any say in it. Paul.

Edited September 1, 2010 by paul walter

[Marblehead]

Well if you walk aware and quietly they don't see you coming and you can get out of the way first so everyone wins and you avoid confrontation. I think that's one of the secrets in life.

 

Ha! I'm glad you caught me on that one. Hehehe. Yes, what I said is contrary to the teachings of Taoism. However, I have found it to be a valid process. Believe it or not, I normally walk very quietly and most times people don't even know I was there. And I do agree, avoidance is, IMO, the best policy. But then I have to deal with my real life experiences of the past and you know that we are supposed to learn from our past experiences.

 

I make no apologies for who and what I am. In fact, I take pride in who and what I am (now). (At one point in my life I really disliked myself.)

 

As for the first sentence, don't be so sure the logic of that stands as you would like to think it does! In my large experience anything is possible in a world where the idea of 'justice' relies on the abilities of the sense/mind matrix of rather poorly developed specimens (humans) in that area. Some of the finest people in the 'justice' system would have considerable records for criminal activity if proles like us had any say in it. Paul.

 

Yes, the next moment in time is full of potential. Even the impossibilities of this 'now' moment have the potential of becoming possibilities.

 

But I do put a lot of (Oh!, I dislike using this word) faith in the processes of nature and the processes of all things in nature. The human animal is what it is. Capable of untold whatevers.

 

And it is true, the more laws a society makes the more criminals there will be. (That's Lao Tzu's paraphrased words.)

 

But then, thousands of years ago there apparently was a need for laws in order to cause the people to act in a more responsible way.

 

So is there a problem with laws or is there a problem with the way some people act?

 

Peace & Love!

[Guest paul walter]

 

But then, thousands of years ago there apparently was a need for laws in order to cause the people to act in a more responsible way.

 

So is there a problem with laws or is there a problem with the way some people act?

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

With laws. People in a culture, despite 'popular' wisdom, are mostly nurture not nature! When you see this it all changes, all turns upside down, hence the fact that the more laws the more crime/criminals. Law seeks to do the regulating of people that they should be doing for themselves, it destroys their innate sense of justice through it not being excercised and discovered 'naturally'.

 

It's all very logical when you can see it, the key for the rulers is to not let those inside the circle to get any perspective where one can see the emperor (social mores) has no clothes.

Edited September 2, 2010 by paul walter

[Marblehead]

With laws. People in a culture, despite 'popular' wisdom, are mostly nurture not nature! When you see this it all changes, all turns upside down, hence the fact that the more laws the more crime/criminals. Law seeks to do the regulating of people that they should be doing for themselves, it destroys their innate sense of justice through it not being excercised and discovered 'naturally'.

 

It's all very logical when you can see it, the key for the rulers is to not let those inside the circle to get any perspective where one can see the emperor (social mores) has no clothes.

 

Hi Paul,

 

Excellent response. However, the question still remains. Why was there a need for laws in the first place? I suggest that it is because many people don't always do the right thing. Now, you brought up nurture vs. nature. But which one is the root problem? Are the children, in general, being taught wrong things? Or are the children ignoring the right thing in order to increase their own pleasure?

 

I agree with you that nearly all laws are enacted for the purpose of forcing people to do the 'right' thing ('right' being the opinion of the majority of a society, in most cases). And I agree, if people would have been doing the 'right' thing all along there would be no need for the laws.

 

Ah! The rulers. I won't talk about that here. I would take this thread way off topic if I did. (I don't hold much faith in most rulers.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Guest paul walter]

Excellent response. However, the question still remains. Why was there a need for laws in the first place? I suggest that it is because many people don't always do the right thing. Now, you brought up nurture vs. nature. But which one is the root problem? Are the children, in general, being taught wrong things? Or are the children ignoring the right thing in order to increase their own pleasure?

 

There is no "right thing"--you have to be beyond fear to see this (not to mention ready to take complete responsibility for yourself!), it is a very scary place for the ego to be initially. The children are victims of the adults who don't know any better. For someone like me everyday is Auschwitz for the newborn--of course we don't see that cause our language describes things like "love" "marriage" "having kids" "teaching" "for their own good" and a thousand other possible transgressions on the innate (not to mention desirable) potential and sensibilities that "children" (new life) have. Blaming the children for being pains has led to two year olds being given serious addictive drugs in order to reign in their 'behaviour' on a large scale. Anything rather than blame 'bad' parenting heh?

 

 

I agree with you that nearly all laws are enacted for the purpose of forcing people to do the 'right' thing ('right' being the opinion of the majority of a society, in most cases). And I agree, if people would have been doing the 'right' thing all along there would be no need for the laws.

Of course all laws are coercive. We've gone far beyond ever being able to find our way back to trusting our innate 'goodness' , it's essentially invisible these days/those days ? all a system of laws like the ones we live under describe is, well..a system of laws--they are an entirely self-referential system (like the economy that they support) that seeks to keep us far from our original selves. That's why there can really be no hope for mankind/the world, cause the looping self-referentiality of what we live under drives us mad and exhausted trying to find the 'space' needed to have even a rudimentary perspective on the reality we are now in and escaping it through coming up with true alternatives. Paul

Edited September 3, 2010 by paul walter

[Marblehead]

Hi Paul,

 

You got too pessimistic on me there. Hehehe.

 

Let's lighten this up a bit.

 

Most people, I think, have a 'natural inclination for goodness'. That is to say, most people would not do to others things that they would not want done to themselves. For these people no laws are really needed.

 

It is for the minority who feel they need more than their fair share and disregard the consideration of who they harm in the process that laws are needed.

 

So we are at the very root of the question here. Why are some born with a 'natural inclination for goodness' and others are born excessively greedy? Random selection? Evolution?

 

All social animals have their laws. No, not written laws but laws instilled by instinct in the most part but in 'higher' animals laws forced upon the young by the elders.

 

Even in the solitary species, most of the cat family, for example, there are laws. Territories are established. Violating territorial rights may be a call for a fight to the death of one or the other.

 

So even in pure nature there exists the concept of 'good and evil'. Good is respecting the territorial rights of others and evil is violating these rights.

 

So, if we accept the fact that some are born excessively greedy (based on the view of the majority) then there will have to be laws to control these animals. Most of these laws are instinctual but some are written laws made by man.

 

So who makes and enforces the laws? Isn't it those who have the power to enforce them? - Those who already have an excess?

 

And why would they want these laws? I suggest that it is because they don't want others to take what they already have.

 

But let's go back to the opening post for a moment.

 

What was the cat doing? Just being a cat. Not harming anyone or anything. Along come a human. What does the human do? It loves up to the cat, gaining its confidence in its loving caringness then deprives it of being a cat by putting it in a trash bin. What stimulated this act by the human? Envy? Anger? Hate? The act was a potential death sentence. Why would that human want to kill a cat that had likely never done any harm to it? Surely not for food or survival.

 

In the wasp thread we have a potential danger. A wasp sting could cause great harm. To destroy the nest would be an act of survival.

 

Now I know that it is beautiful to be able to see beyond good and evil. - To be able to view everything that happens as something that had to happen because of the various causes that led to the event.

 

My biggest problem with this is the concepts of 'choices' and 'free will'. The lady had the free will to do good and just walk past the cat and continue on her merry way. But no, she made the choice to stop and do an evil thing. Regardless of all events in the past, regardless of all the causes the led to her action she still had the free will to just walk on by. But no, she chose to do a bad thing. Her intention was to do evil. She made the choice.

 

I'll stop for now.

 

Peace & Love!

[freeform]

So you accept all is one with the Tao and therefore all is beautiful and perfect etc.

At the same time you say you follow the Tao, meaning the "others" do not follow the Tao.

 

I'm not sure where you get this impression.

 

As Mal said - Tao just is - and it includes within it all contradictions and extremes...

 

You trying to move with the Tao is part of Tao and you trying to move against the Tao is part of Tao... This is a paradox to the mind, i agree. This state of oneness is not a fluffy, happy, heavenly playpen (well it is... but it's also the opposite - at the same time) - it's perfect in its balance and flow...

 

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"

 

The thinking mind pretends it's separate from everything... it pretends to be individual and unconnected... this isn't good or bad - it just causes a lot of effort... to pretend to be individual requires a lot of effort - it's a very big lie and requires constant vigilance to keep reality from seeping in and to warp, delete and distort all incoming information in a way that keeps the mind on its throne...

 

How does this relate to the video of the girl throwing puppies in the river?

 

It's interesting to watch your responses as they arise and notice the millions of subtle and not so subtle distortions, deletions and additions your mind makes. Watching the mind assert its importance is always both tragic and fascinating... but at least you get to see the layers of 'stuff' you add to seeing a moving image in front of you on the screen.

 

By 'understanding' what's going on, the mind asserts its importance - the king of 'you' understands all! There are split-second judgements and double binds that happen without the un-aware noticing it happen... I saw this video - which means it really happened - which means the girl is evil - she's even laughing - which means she's really evil... These are all 'un-grounded' assessments (as I call em) - meaning they come not from what's really in front of you - but from the mind.

 

For all we know the video is fake!

[Guest paul walter]

Most people, I think, have a 'natural inclination for goodness'. That is to say, most people would not do to others things that they would not want done to themselves. For these people no laws are really needed.

 

It is for the minority who feel they need more than their fair share and disregard the consideration of who they harm in the process that laws are needed.

 

So we are at the very root of the question here. Why are some born with a 'natural inclination for goodness' and others are born excessively greedy? Random selection? Evolution?

Well the easy answer is "karma". The uneasy answer is that this isn't 'true', everyone is born with inclinations for survival and the best way to achieve that in a nice way is through what Peter Kropotkin termed "mutual aid" where species help each other and their own kind. Surely as humans we could try and believe our own propaganda and actually act like we want to be seen to be civilised instead of killing each other off. Maybe it's that fake Darwinism that's been put forth that's screwed us for the last hundred years? I have no reason to consider any other options other than the ones put forth here when I look at my own 'evolution' away from the society I was born into and into an actual state of life and awareness. It makes no sense to be in a state of warfare, it kills you one way or the other.

 

 

 

All social animals have their laws. No, not written laws but laws instilled by instinct in the most part but in 'higher' animals laws forced upon the young by the elders.

 

Even in the solitary species, most of the cat family, for example, there are laws. Territories are established. Violating territorial rights may be a call for a fight to the death of one or the other.

 

So even in pure nature there exists the concept of 'good and evil'. Good is respecting the territorial rights of others and evil is violating these rights.

 

So, if we accept the fact that some are born excessively greedy (based on the view of the majority) then there will have to be laws to control these animals. Most of these laws are instinctual but some are written laws made by man.

 

If people want to compare themselves to lions and tigers--go live like one! Don't keep the hypocrisy of saying one is "civilised" (and all the supposed pluses that brings with it) and claim the rights of savage instinct when one really means one is self-ignorant and can't control ones own reactions (perhaps from having something a civilised as cola drinks etc which send people violent). It's a totally moot point to compare--why not compare to other human societies, the 'best' ones-it makes more sense and saves at least a whole lot of hypothesising about this species bunk.

 

 

So who makes and enforces the laws? Isn't it those who have the power to enforce them? - Those who already have an excess?

 

And why would they want these laws? I suggest that it is because they don't want others to take what they already have.

That's ALL a culture ultimately represents for people like you and me. Anything else is possible of course but it simply isn't allowed to happen.

 

But let's go back to the opening post for a moment.

 

What was the cat doing? Just being a cat. Not harming anyone or anything. Along come a human. What does the human do? It loves up to the cat, gaining its confidence in its loving caringness then deprives it of being a cat by putting it in a trash bin. What stimulated this act by the human? Envy? Anger? Hate? The act was a potential death sentence. Why would that human want to kill a cat that had likely never done any harm to it? Surely not for food or survival.

Because of the very confusion you are revelling in--cause they are lost, they are in pain from that lostness...etc etc. I saw some rich bastard private school boy kick a cat flying into the air with full force as a joke with his mates right in front of me once (I was very still but very close to them so in their thugish oblivion didn't notice me)--why?--for fun and frustration accumulated through life. The other day a possum was hit on the main road outside my place--it was dying from its injury, but no-one 'saw' it, the driver certainly didn't stop and I was the only one to be there to take it to the vet? What is this , evil? No, and yes. Evil is totally mundane most of the time. Do I let the car driver "off" cause they were in a hurry? Were the Germans in a hurry too much to notice the camps---yes, probably. Anything is allowed and acted upon in the proper cultural context--evil exists within the very fabric of systems that aren't accountable/agreed upon. That's why shit ALWAYS happens, that's why it WILL always happen.

 

 

In the wasp thread we have a potential danger. A wasp sting could cause great harm. To destroy the nest would be an act of survival.

 

Now I know that it is beautiful to be able to see beyond good and evil. - To be able to view everything that happens as something that had to happen because of the various causes that led to the event.

 

My biggest problem with this is the concepts of 'choices' and 'free will'. The lady had the free will to do good and just walk past the cat and continue on her merry way. But no, she made the choice to stop and do an evil thing. Regardless of all events in the past, regardless of all the causes the led to her action she still had the free will to just walk on by. But no, she chose to do a bad thing. Her intention was to do evil. She made the choice.

Then "evil" is in this case the accumulated life leading to this moment where she gets her revenge on whatever was done to her through harming animals, no mystery there. The thing you need to do Marble is to steel yourself and get ready for the truth about humans--most have no idea who they are or really why they live and think the way they do. It's horrifying to think you live in such a world but while you have illusions to the contrary there are people and species dying every minute because of that which you can't/don't want to see. Paul

I'll stop for now.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Well we can always hope so

[Marblehead]

Hey Freeform!

 

Stop calling me a liar. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I am separate. But I am also as part of the All. Duality? Sure. That's what the Manifest is - the other side of Mystery. (Yo vs Wu.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Well we can always hope so

 

I was only stopping with that post. We ain't done yet. Hehehe.

 

The thing you need to do Marble is to steel yourself and get ready for the truth about humans--most have no idea who they are or really why they live and think the way they do. It's horrifying to think you live in such a world but while you have illusions to the contrary there are people and species dying every minute because of that which you can't/don't want to see.

 

So how the hell did you gain all this wisdom to be able to tell me what I need to do? That is pretty freakin' arrogant!

 

Seems you are agreeing with me more than disagreeing but still you say I am totally incorrect in my view of life and people in general.

 

Are you denying reality? Living in your make-believe world where everything is okay just because it can happen?

 

That is so much a wrong view when it comes to people and their ability to differentiate between 'right and wrong', 'good and evil'.

 

And I will say again as you did not speak to it, we each, if we have a normally functioning brain, know the difference between 'right and wrong'. We each are capable of making choices. We each have free will within given limitations.

 

If we do 'wrong' by doing something that most people would consider 'evil' then we must be judged as being 'evil'. Doesn't matter what our past problems are. Those are things of the past. Every day we wake up we have a chance for a new life if we so choose.

 

The woman in the first video is evil, the girl in the second video is evil. Oh, sure, they probably more often than not do good things while others are watching them because they don't want their true colors to show.

 

A perfect example of this is spectators at a sporting event. Being crazy and stupid is acceptable here so those who are at their roots are crazy and stupid.

 

So I understand that there are crazy, stupid and evil people on this planet and therefore remain prepared for these people. This way of life has served me very well. I don't dream when I sleep and I wake in the morning with a pure mind. I am at peace with my inner Self and I am contented with my position in life (fully retired).

 

I have already lived three time longer than the average retired military person. That is because I never picked up any addictions that were extremely hazardous to my life.

 

So if anyone here wants to pretend that it is okay for that woman to throw that cat in the trash bin because it is a result of karma then just remember that it is okay for some drug addict to rape your eleven year old daughter. If you believe that everything is permissable because it is a person's karma then that's fine. But just remember that when shit happens in your world.

 

So you don't believe in evolution? What a shame. But there a lot of these people so you are not alone in being one of the lost souls.

 

You argue against comparing the human brain with instinct but yet you insist on karma? Even when you agreed that the instinct of survival exist in the human animal?

 

Actually, regarding laws, I normally do whatever needs be done and am always ready to accept full responsibility for my actions if I have, in the process, violated a law. That's just the way I am, the way I have always been, and the way I will always be. I don't need anyone telling me how to live my life or telling me what I need to do.

 

And once again I will state that evil, IMO, is any act to do intentional harm to another living creature without a just cause. "Just" specifically referring to survival or avoidance of harm.

 

The driver in your example above likely did not do something evil unless he/she intentionally hit the possum. There is even an excellent possibility that they didn't even know they hit it. That's called "shit happens".

 

Peace & Love!

[WallaMike]

Yeah, I know. I get feedback from Taoists about my opinion on this subject and much of that feedback is similar to what you just presented. I cannot support my opinion here with hard fact. It is just an opinion I have formed because of things I have seen during my lifetime.

 

The problem with attaching 'mental illness' to the situation is that we tend to remove the individual responsibility from the person performing the act and say something like, "Well, she couldn't help herself because she is mentally ill." And this makes it all okay. It's not okay, Damn it!!!

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

I've seen the argument about mental illness removing the need for responsibility for behavior before and I think there is some sort of assumption that isn't quite right. I think it revolves around the assumption that if a person is mentally ill, they have no free will ever. I don't think that is true. I think this is some sort of a cultural myth, like drunks don't have to be responsible for what they say, and so people just use it as an excuse.

 

From my experience, in mentally ill people, there is a spectrum of their ability to use their free will and it varies from day to day, as well as person to person. So, there is some partial truth to the idea that mentally ill people have a decreased capacity for judgment and free will. But I'm still a believer that it doesn't exonerate them from all responsibility. In cases like this, I think this woman should be prevented from ever having any more pets and probably should not be allowed to care for children or older people. Perhaps washing out cages with animal poop in them as a community service would be a reasonable punishment.

 

Looking a little more specifically at this case, there is what people call mental illness in which a person is pretty dysfunctional and there are more specific deficiencies in which a person's main dysfunction may be the inability to empathize. This is not infrequently tied to the inability to think through to the possible results of one's actions. I suspect this is what was part of what was going on with this person. To a degree this is a developmental problem, in that most children can't emphasize well until they reach a certain age. However, most children realize you don't put a cat in a garbage can, so it is more than that. Pretty soon we're going to start finding human babies in garbage cans...wait, we already did. Very sad, this inhumanity of people to people and other sentient beings.

[WallaMike]

I don't even know what to say about people like her, they are sick and evil. thats right EVIL, read the word over and over and then reject its existence because you came up with some theory and mind play on why EVIL doesn't exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway Tao oneness and practitioner guys, I have a question......

 

 

So you accept all is one with the Tao and therefore all is beautiful and perfect etc.

At the same time you say you follow the Tao, meaning the "others" do not follow the Tao.

So if others do not follow the Tao, how can you consider them part of the Tao and "perfect"? Ok maybe they physically are part of the tao, but their mental plane sure isn't.

 

Are you not contradicting yourself by accepting as perfect and part of the Tao those who do not follow the Tao?

 

 

Also the idea that the Tao is not perfect is in contradiction with your claim that everything in the Tao is perfect. If the Tao is truly perfect, the idea of its imperfection should not exist in the first place.

All is Tao, but that doesn't mean all is as it "should" be, like the Tao was and is meant to be the way it is, and cannot be changed.

 

So if you can possibly get your mind around what I have tried to express above, you will see my point, the Tao is there to be reshaped by us however we see fit. And those who simply accept things can't change because Tao is what it is. are either afraid or feel powerless to reshape the Tao into something better.

 

 

In the non-dual perspective, everything, everyone is in the Tao, even people who think they are not in the Tao or don't follow the Tao. So, from this perspective, you can "reshape" the Tao, but it still remains the Tao. It really depends upon how a person defines the Tao and to argue without knowing the definitions being used usually just ends up frustrating both parties.

 

I kind of cringed in self-recognition when I noted you used the phrase: "all is as it should be" as an example, since I tend to use that phrase. Your using that as an example helped me to realize the inherent erroneous assumption in that statement, as well as the idea that the Tao is "perfect". As someone else said, it just "is". Perfection, as well as assumptions about what is evil and good are human constructions. This is not to say evil and good don't exist, since we as humans also exist and we need these concepts to function. Perhaps at some level they do exist even independent of human conception. However, at certain levels they disappear, just as yin and yang disappear.

[Mal]

It's interesting to watch your responses as they arise and notice the millions of subtle and not so subtle distortions, deletions and additions your mind makes. Watching the mind assert its importance is always both tragic and fascinating... but at least you get to see the layers of 'stuff' you add to seeing a moving image in front of you on the screen.

 

Yes. I enjoy watching my imaginary response(s)

 

Old lady puts cat in a bin / young lady throwing puppies in a river. In both these situations I feel a huge power differential. So I imagine myself heroically confronting the bully, exposing their poor behavior (by acting like a bully myself, of course ) and saving the victims.

 

Yet the situation of a private school boy kicking a cat with a group of mates evokes a different imaginary response. I categorize groups of boys as potentially very dangerous, putting me on the wrong end of a power differential, therefor evoking a much less heroic imagined response.

 

the king of 'you' understands all!

 

That's a quote to keep

[Marblehead]

Hi WallaMike,

 

Good post.

 

So, there is some partial truth to the idea that mentally ill people have a decreased capacity for judgment and free will.

 

Agree. I didn't mean to minimalize this fact but it was not in the interest of my arguement. And Lao Tzu suggested that those who are unable to take care of themselves should be taken care of by society at large.

 

Pretty soon we're going to start finding human babies in garbage cans...wait, we already did. Very sad, this inhumanity of people to people and other sentient beings.

 

Yeah, that's sad, isn't it? The inhumanity of humanity. No, that's not right. That is generalizing and I am not supposed to do that. The inhumanity of some people.

 

Truely, this is not a new thing. It has been going on for thousands of years. But it is still not right, IMO.

 

Peace & Love!

[Guest paul walter]

I was only stopping with that post. We ain't done yet. Hehehe.

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

Hey Marble---if you have come-backs and answers to everything I suggest I suggest you already know most of what there is to know in the world and to simply retire and put it into practice, why fight things anymore/why look for 'answers' to problems? As for arrogance/wisdom--one mans wisdom is anothers arrogance (if they choose not to agree with it). Paul

[Marblehead]

Hey Marble---if you have come-backs and answers to everything I suggest I suggest you already know most of what there is to know in the world and to simply retire and put it into practice, why fight things anymore/why look for 'answers' to problems? As for arrogance/wisdom--one mans wisdom is anothers arrogance (if they choose not to agree with it). Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

My main purpose here is to share the wisdom I have gained in life from personal experiences with others.

 

Book learning is one thing. Illusions and delusions are another thing.

 

To be addicted to anything, including a belief system is fatal. Addiction removes nearly all possibilities for flexibility.

 

I have never professed to know everything. In fact, anyone here can look at where my posts are and the greatest majority by far are concerned with Taoist Philosophy and living in the 'real' world.

 

I have knowledge and some wisdom in these areas therefore I share what I have.

 

And in these two areas I will always present an alternative view if I feel someone is presenting false or misleading information.

 

So I would suggest that you concern yourself with yourself and stop worrying about me because I am, in fact, absolutely no concern for you.

 

But I assure you, if you post incorrect or misleading information in any of the threads I have interset in I will surely present an alternative view.

 

So, yes, I am retired. But I stay very busy because I hasve many hobbies and one of them happen to be talking about Taoist Philosophy.

 

And BTW - arrogance is arrogance - it has nothing to do with wisdom. In fact, I suggest that the two are opposites.

 

And yes, there are a number of members here who I enjoy having conversations with. Do you feel you have the right to tell me whether or not I can come here on this forum and with whom I can converse with?

 

And another BTW: I practice what I preach. I am not a hypocrite.

 

And one of my preaching in life is to stay active in life. Both physically and mentally.

 

And on a personal note: You shouldn't get so upset when someone disasgrees with you. That is a perfect sign that you think you know everything. Maybe you do. I don't know. I try to not judge others when I have little or no facts to base my judgements on.

 

Both of the videos in this thread contained enough information for me to make a judgement. It was my personal judgement. I never suggested that everyone should judge it exactly as I did.

 

So you go ahead and do what you enjoy doing here on this forum and I assure you that I will continue to do the same.

 

Peace & Love!