Beyond Good and Evil

[vsaluki]

The way I explain is that the Tao or God or the Unified whole has the characteristic of cooperation

 

I'm having difficulty with that part. It seems to me that Toa includes as much destruction and competition as it does cooperation. In fact, even if I look at a world without man, the competition of the species as well as the competition within species seems to be prevalent.

 

One can split the world into Tao and man made, but then one is back at the ceramic model of the Abrahamic religions. There god is one thing and man is created by god and is separate from god. God is all good and evil is introduced by man's free will. Sometimes I think that we have rejected the Abrahamic religions, but we are still importing those same values into systems like Tao.

 

It seems to me that our problem is not about cooperation vs competition, but rather about looking at what is, seeing it correctly, and understanding that it is just as it sould be.

 

A side effect of experiencing the world as a unitive whole is likely a behaviour that looks like compassion, but it isn't compassion any more that one would have compassion for oneself.

[LBDaoist]

Vsaluki,

 

I consider things along these lines. Creation and destruction are equal in the universe. Both happen, and neither contains inherent good or evil. Good and evil are concepts of people, and therefore come about by the actions of people.

 

I have begun to pay attention to what seems to be me to be a truth. The truth seems to be that actions which are ego driven are inherently evil. When a person considers themself to the exclusion of others, the odds are very good at their actions will in some way cause harm to others. Conversely if a person considers others and acts in a way that serves to benefit people as a whole, their actions will be inherently "good". Beyond that there truly seem to be the forces of creation and destruction. In relation to those, like seems to attract like. When a person begins to do things that create or nourish life, they will tend to attract that energy. A few things along those lines are gardening, eating well, cultivating qi and the like. Conversely, if a person strays toward destroying life... alcohol and drug abuse, violent behavior, etc.. they will find themselves on a downward spiral.

 

In many ways the mind seems like a magnent. Whatever lingers in the mind seems to draw more of it.

[betwixter]

-

Edited September 12, 2010 by betwixter

[vsaluki]

I am talking of that part of one that trends the human organism toward individuation. Although excused by much stunted or dysfunctional developmental periods and experiences (trauma and what not), the ego, instead of taking it's rightful and appropriate place withing your being as a principle and not a thing in and of itself, tends to, as a protective measure for the organism (because of said trauma), continue to take the lead even though its development has been completed.

 

I agree that the ego is not evil. Nothing is. The hard part is understanding the necessity of the ego as a protective measure. Some mystics that loose it completely can be said to behave in a way that fails to protect the organism. As I understand it, Ramana Maharishi, after enlightenment, would forget to eat and drink unless reminded by someone. He stopped talking entirely; and he let his body become completely fly bitten. He got past that, but it took some time to learn how to function without an ego. Bernadette Roberts, also a realized mystic, has to live with and be taken care of by her sister. The problem with the ego is that it has a fairly tight grip on the thought process when one tries to get past the idea that self equals something enclosed in this bag of skin. Ego will even feed itself on the illusion of being on a quest to be better by shedding the ego.

Edited September 2, 2010 by vsaluki

[z00se]

Alright. I'll answer this. Good and evil are simply amplifications of comfortable and uncomfortable, or desirable and undesirable. So for example, eating ice cream is good, but cleaning the toilet is evil. Of course we don't say this in real life, because eating ice cream is not a strong preference and cleaning the toilet is not as uncomfortable as being oppressed is. But good and evil are born of preferences which may start small, but become strong.

 

So let's look at what Hsu Yu said. Hsu Yu is posturing here to appear as if he is beyond good and evil. In reality, he is not comfortable to teach Master Yao's student, thus he has a preference. He doesn't want to be bothered by having to question and analytically contradict everything Master Yao taught, because it's a big chore and takes a lot of time and is not necessarily a process that Hsu Yu enjoys. So in this case, teaching Master Yao student is a type of small evil for Hsu Yu. Thus Hsu Yu is at least slightly dirty, if not completely dirty with the dirt of hypocrisy.

 

Nonetheless, there is some value in demonstrating that good and evil are not absolute, are not permanent, and are not worth losing one's head over. At the same time, if we completely ignore what is comfortable and what isn't, for oneself and for others, we will be making life harder than necessary, whatever you want to call it.

 

I don't agree. Good and evil are different from desirable and undesirable.

 

I think the sage that sits there and never moves all day has no desireables/undesireables. But there are plenty of enlightened people who don't just sit and meditate all day. There are desirable things that they want to do, that their soul desires that their material body can do to accomplish this goal here on earth. I think the difference is in the way they react to the desirable or undesirable. The reaction is different by those enlightened or not.

 

Another point to mention is that killing or even just shouting at someone and seeming as though you are angry is necessary sometimes, or people walk all over you. Just because you act angry doesn't mean you really are angry. If someone is crazy and they want to kill your family then you kill them first. It's not evil, it's not good it just is.

 

I think the root of what you are discussing is in the judging. It is in the analytical mind where this comes from, not from the heart.

[Marblehead]

 

I think the root of what you are discussing is in the judging. It is in the analytical mind where this comes from, not from the heart.

 

I just wanted to repeat this because I think it is important.

 

Peace & Love!

[vsaluki]

I don't agree. Good and evil are different from desirable and undesirable.

 

I'm with you on this. When you are talking about good and evil you are bringing in moral implications that go beyond desirable and undesirable.

 

The first thing that we should do here is to clarify the use of the word "good". When we use it in the context of "good and evil" we are using it to mean something different from when we use it in the context of "good and bad". For example, we could have good weather and we could have bad weather. But we never speak of evil weather. We can have good food and we can have bad food, but we don't have evil food. If we trip over a rock and fall down, we don't call the rock evil. We don't even call an animal evil that kills more than it needs to eat. The designation "evil", is reserved for actions and intentions of other humans - usually in the context of knowingly and intentionally doing things which hurt other. The implication is that this involves some kind of moral law being broken, and as such, an evil act is more serious than a bad act. The problem is that we cannot trace the source or authority for this moral law. Certainly the universe does things all the time that would be considered evil if they were done by a human. If a guy gets hit by lightning, it's unfortunate, but not evil. If a man had control of lightning and used it to hit another man, that would be considered as evil. So good and evil are purely human constructs that only operate in a human environment. So when mystics seek to dismiss judgements of good and evil, they are targeting a judgement that highlights the opposition of ego to ego.

[metal dog]

I think the mind would not be able to cope upon it being made aware of the real horrors that occur in the darkest corners of the world.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

The Way the World Is

 

When you awaken, when you understand, when you see, the world becomes right. We're always bothered by the problem of evil. There's a powerful story about a little boy walking along the bank of a river. He sees a crocodile who is trapped in a net. The crocodile says, "Would you have pity on me and release me? I may look ugly, but it isn't my fault, you know. I was made this way. But whatever my external appearance, I have a mother's heart. I came this morning in search of food for my young ones and got caught in this trap!"

 

So the boy says, "Ah, if I were to help you out of that trap, you'd grab me and kill me."

 

The crocodile asks, "Do you think I would do that to my benefactor and liberator?"

 

So the boy is persuaded to take the net off and the crocodile grabs him.

 

As he is being forced between the jaws of the crocodile, he says, "So this is what I get for my good actions." And the crocodile says, "Well, don't take it personally, son, this is the way the world is, this is the law of life."

 

The boy disputes this, so the crocodile says, "Do you want to ask someone if it isn't so?"

 

The boy sees a bird sitting on a branch and says, "Bird, is what the crocodile says right?" The bird says, "The crocodile is right. Look at me. I was coming home one day with food for my fledglings. Imagine my horror to see a snake crawling up the tree, making straight for my nest. I was totally helpless. It kept devouring my young ones, one after the other. I kept screaming and shouting, but it was useless. The crocodile is right, this is the law of life, this is the way the world is."

 

"See," says the crocodile. But the boy says, "Let me ask someone else." So the crocodile says, "Well, all right, go ahead."

 

There was an old donkey passing by on the bank of the river. "Donkey," says the boy, "this is what the crocodile says. Is the crocodile right?"

 

The donkey says, "The crocodile is quite right. Look at me. I've worked and slaved for my master all my life and he barely gave me enough to eat. Now that I'm old and useless, he has turned me loose, and here I am wandering in the jungle, waiting for some wild beast to pounce on me and put an end to my life. The crocodile is right, this is the law of life, this is the way the world is."

 

"See," says the crocodile. "Let's go!"

 

The boy says, "Give me one more chance, one last chance. Let me ask one other being. Remember how good I was to you?" So the crocodile says, "All right, your last chance."

 

The boy sees a rabbit passing by, and he says, "Rabbit, is the crocodile right?"

 

The rabbit sits on his haunches and says to the crocodile, "Did you say that to that boy? The crocodile says, "Yes, I did." "Wait a minute," says the rabbit. "We've got to discuss this." "Yes," says the crocodile. But the rabbit says, "How can we discuss it when you've got that boy in your mouth? Release him; he's got to take part in the discussion, too." The crocodile says, "You're a clever one, you are. The moment I release him, he'll run away." The rabbit says, "I thought you had more sense than that. If he attempted to run away, one slash of your tail would kill him."

 

"Fair enough," says the crocodile, and he released the boy. The moment the boy is released, the rabbit says, "Run!" And the boy runs and escapes. Then the rabbit says to the boy, "Don't you enjoy crocodile flesh? Wouldn't the people in your village like a good meal? You didn't really release that crocodile; most of his body is still caught in that net. Why don't you go to the village and bring everybody and have a banquet."

 

That's exactly what the boy does. He goes to the village and calls all the men folk. They come with their axes and staves and spears and kill the crocodile. The boy's dog comes, too, and when the dog sees the rabbit, he gives chase, catches hold of the rabbit, and throttles him. The boy comes on the scene too late, and as he watches the rabbit die, he says, "The crocodile was right, this is the way the world is, this is the law of life."

 

There is no explanation you can give that would explain away all the sufferings and evil and torture and destruction and hunger in the world! You'll never explain it. You can try gamely with your formulas, religious and otherwise, but you'll never explain it. Because life is a mystery, which means your thinking mind cannot make sense out of it. For that you've got to wake up and then you'll suddenly realize that reality is not problematic, you are the problem.

 

-Anthony De Mello

Edited March 19, 2011 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[C T]

The Way the World Is....

 

-Anthony De Mello

Thanks for sharing this, Mr Songs. I like the last two sentences..

 

 

[manitou]

(I believe the sage would save a child being kidnapped. He would never think about the evil of the person committing the act but instead act upon sight of the act to help the child. If the child gave him a hug afterwards he would accept it. If the child throwed a punch and ran away he would dodge the punch. Never would he think "Oh what a great thankful child" or "Oh man that little shit!". Neither would he take the time to understand the situation from the child's perspective, "Well I did save him", or "He must have been scared" because that is of no importance and no value. )

 

(If I didn't replicate this previous post correctly, I apologize. I'm an old lady, a dinosaur on this computer. Maybe someone can tell me how to take part of someone else's quote and put it at the top of my two cents?)

 

Another great Sage I can think of said 'hate the sin and love the sinner', or something to that effect. The Sage would also find his heart going out to the perp, knowing that everything is Here and Now. The perp is the same little kid that was kidnapped and molested himself, or something equally as traumatic. And it would have been at right around the same age as the new victim. It's not ours to condone or condemn. It just is. Straw dogs, and all that.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for the story Songs. I regretfully have to agree. (Of course, I am using my own value judgements here. Hehehe. I guess I am the problem?)

[Marblehead]

Hi Manitou,

 

You did good with your first paragraph. And my thoughts do agree with what you said.

 

I have not yet attained the state of your last paragraph. I still hold the perp accountable. The sinner must pay.

[Brian]

...

[vsaluki]

As I was reading "Mindfulness In Plain English" the other day, a nice analogy came to me. The way of Tao is much like breathing. You can breath two ways. One way is to breath automatically, without thinking about it. Your body will regulate your intake without any effort, and according to what the body needs. The other way is to think about your breathing and to regulate the pace and volumne directly. In other words, one puts every breath under command control. Not only is the second method much harder to do, but it also produces an inferior result. You are constantly trying to guess if you are breathing too much or not enough. You change your rate according to your guess rather than the need of the body. You tie up your mental resources and probably make yourself dizzy. We can approach life in much the same way. We can be constantly worried that the things that are not directly under our control will go wrong and so we can struggle to get as much control as possible so that things don't go wrong. The result is that we tie ourselves into knots because we have the illusion that we know what a better world would be like and we think we know how to make it that way. In reality, the best thing that we can do is just regard life as a naturally self sustaining entity that we cannot improve throught the exercise of our ego. Unfortunately, we can always recognize other people's ego's at work, but we cannot do this for ourselves. A good way to start is to look at all of the cases where you think that you know better what other peoples behaviour should be than they do. Of course you always tell yourself that you want that change for the betterment of both mankind and the people that you want to change, but that is where the illusion begins.

[Samurai Jane]

If you really want you qi to circulate nicely, just think in your mind how everything you see around you is in fact the same as you, it is no different. If you think of your arm for example, as being part of yourself. Theres a certain feeling/state you have when you think about some part of your own body. If you can enlarge that particular feeling/state while you think of the rest of your surroundings just as if you were noticing your own arm, then the subtle energies in your body will become excited.

LOL

It only took me about 40 years to be able "to lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing" after I first heard the Moody Blues suggesting that possibility.

[vsaluki]

[Marblehead]

Ha! Another Nietzsche lover! Always good to see.

[manitou]

Life's a lot easier if you consider it All Good.

[C T]

Life's a lot easier if you consider it All Good.

It would be most interesting to hear an expansion from you on the above, Manitou.

 

In gratefulness..

 

 

[manitou]

As to everything being all good, this is merely a choice of mindset that I use to keep to the positive. Our mindsets are our choice, after all.

By choosing to see things as all good it eliminates the necessity for categorization and judgment. The Tao treats us like straw dogs, no preference to anything. By aligning ourselves sith the valley of the female and endeavoring to live our lives in wu-wei we can be assured that we're in alignment with anything that happens. In that sense, it can be seen as 'all good'. It's all in the planned manifestation of the 10,000 Things, which continues without regard to time or space. Even if there is something that appears horrible, like the murder of a child (I hate to use this illustration, I'm a retired cop), how do we really know that that's horrible after all? Did the personality of the child not incarnate into full awareness of what was being created? Is it possible that there's no good or bad attached to the death of that child, from the soul's perspective? Perhaps the soul achieved what it needed by being murdered and the life terminating early? After all, the child was treated like a straw dog as well.

I've interviewed many child molesters and rapists. Almost to a man, there is an uninterrupted chain of karmaic dynamic that has come down from childhood, often being a victim of the same type of crime. In fact, it's almost as though there is a phase of the perpetrator that stopped growing at the time of the initial trauma, whatever it was. In that sense, the perpetrator and the victim are one and the same; often they're the same "age" along those lines of development.

Yes, the perp needs to go to jail for a long time. Better yet if we actually had some rehabilitative services while in prison, although AA and similar meetings on the inside go a long way. The removal of the perp from society for a given number of years is for the benefit of society (we can get along just fine without a child molester living down the street) rather than punishing anyone. Mere punishment is not effective on a malady of this nature. By looking at everything as 'all good and within the purvue of the Tao,' we find no need to hold dark thoughts toward another, no matter how hideous, which would result in us separating ourselves from that individual, which creates a false sense of superiority and separation from one another within us. Our judgment of the perp does nothing for the perp; it merely keeps us uncomfortable and out of the flow of Tao.

[Everything]

The Way the World Is

 

When you awaken, when you understand, when you see, the world becomes right. We're always bothered by the problem of evil. There's a powerful story about a little boy walking along the bank of a river. He sees a crocodile who is trapped in a net. The crocodile says, "Would you have pity on me and release me? I may look ugly, but it isn't my fault, you know. I was made this way. But whatever my external appearance, I have a mother's heart. I came this morning in search of food for my young ones and got caught in this trap!"

 

So the boy says, "Ah, if I were to help you out of that trap, you'd grab me and kill me."

 

The crocodile asks, "Do you think I would do that to my benefactor and liberator?"

 

So the boy is persuaded to take the net off and the crocodile grabs him.

 

As he is being forced between the jaws of the crocodile, he says, "So this is what I get for my good actions." And the crocodile says, "Well, don't take it personally, son, this is the way the world is, this is the law of life."

 

The boy disputes this, so the crocodile says, "Do you want to ask someone if it isn't so?"

 

The boy sees a bird sitting on a branch and says, "Bird, is what the crocodile says right?" The bird says, "The crocodile is right. Look at me. I was coming home one day with food for my fledglings. Imagine my horror to see a snake crawling up the tree, making straight for my nest. I was totally helpless. It kept devouring my young ones, one after the other. I kept screaming and shouting, but it was useless. The crocodile is right, this is the law of life, this is the way the world is."

 

"See," says the crocodile. But the boy says, "Let me ask someone else." So the crocodile says, "Well, all right, go ahead."

 

There was an old donkey passing by on the bank of the river. "Donkey," says the boy, "this is what the crocodile says. Is the crocodile right?"

 

The donkey says, "The crocodile is quite right. Look at me. I've worked and slaved for my master all my life and he barely gave me enough to eat. Now that I'm old and useless, he has turned me loose, and here I am wandering in the jungle, waiting for some wild beast to pounce on me and put an end to my life. The crocodile is right, this is the law of life, this is the way the world is."

 

"See," says the crocodile. "Let's go!"

 

The boy says, "Give me one more chance, one last chance. Let me ask one other being. Remember how good I was to you?" So the crocodile says, "All right, your last chance."

 

The boy sees a rabbit passing by, and he says, "Rabbit, is the crocodile right?"

 

The rabbit sits on his haunches and says to the crocodile, "Did you say that to that boy? The crocodile says, "Yes, I did." "Wait a minute," says the rabbit. "We've got to discuss this." "Yes," says the crocodile. But the rabbit says, "How can we discuss it when you've got that boy in your mouth? Release him; he's got to take part in the discussion, too." The crocodile says, "You're a clever one, you are. The moment I release him, he'll run away." The rabbit says, "I thought you had more sense than that. If he attempted to run away, one slash of your tail would kill him."

 

"Fair enough," says the crocodile, and he released the boy. The moment the boy is released, the rabbit says, "Run!" And the boy runs and escapes. Then the rabbit says to the boy, "Don't you enjoy crocodile flesh? Wouldn't the people in your village like a good meal? You didn't really release that crocodile; most of his body is still caught in that net. Why don't you go to the village and bring everybody and have a banquet."

 

That's exactly what the boy does. He goes to the village and calls all the men folk. They come with their axes and staves and spears and kill the crocodile. The boy's dog comes, too, and when the dog sees the rabbit, he gives chase, catches hold of the rabbit, and throttles him. The boy comes on the scene too late, and as he watches the rabbit die, he says, "The crocodile was right, this is the way the world is, this is the law of life."

 

There is no explanation you can give that would explain away all the sufferings and evil and torture and destruction and hunger in the world! You'll never explain it. You can try gamely with your formulas, religious and otherwise, but you'll never explain it. Because life is a mystery, which means your thinking mind cannot make sense out of it. For that you've got to wake up and then you'll suddenly realize that reality is not problematic, you are the problem.

 

-Anthony De Mello

Clearly this is a brainwashing story. A story cannot explain a concept better then formulas and the rational mind. The monkey was destructive, towards himself. And that by many people is seen as "good" behaviour. Well, I certainly enjoy to watch those "good" people suffer, because they are so ignorant. Good is relative. My concept of good is superior, my perception is more advanced, thus I get more out of life. If you think "releasing a crocodile out of a net" is good? Clearly you are thinking like a child. The mature people know their boundaries well, and have experience in the world. The hero dies, the warrior lives.

If you're in an airplane and your children are suffocating along with you, it is not good to put the mask on your children first and then on yourself. What good are you dead? You could have saved tens more people when alive! You come first in life.

The fear of death in this story is also a bad sign, it doesn't bring good out of people but more evil then you can think of. Do you think Nazi's were not afraid? Why do you think Hitler came to power, because they were afraid of death. You can not make rational decisions if you are afraid and have any kind of emotional response uppon which you base your decisions. You will walk the path of suffering.

 

Sorry if I have insulted you, it was not my intention to make it personal, but rather insult the story. The story irritates me, and I don't think it brings any "good" to this concept of good and evil xD

Alot of destructive people (either towards them selves or others) are seen as "good" these days. But hey, I don't complain, it gives me more power when people stay so ignorant!

[Marblehead]

You can not make rational decisions if you are afraid and have any kind of emotional response uppon which you base your decisions. You will walk the path of suffering.

 

Another favorite concept of mine to discuss but I will wait until another thread appears on the concept.

[goldisheavy]

The truth has some depth to it. Because of this, at some level, the distinction between good and evil is seen as an ignorant and baseless distinction. At a different level, it is seen as a useful distinction.

 

What's important is to realize that because we are alive, our morals must be alive also. Living beings cannot abide by dead, unliving morals. This means all dogmatic moralities hurt us, because we grow, but dogmas do not. We are not static, but dogmas are. Dogmas are contrary to life, and I think that's what the Daoists noticed more than anything. So it's less about good and evil and more about inflexible unbending dogmatic mindsets.

 

Dogmatic people are necessarily ignorant because in order to observe dogmas faithfully you must become numb and blind to life. Should you be sensitive to life, you will notice it is alive and dogmas are not alive. You'll notice a discrepancy. You'll see how our experiences and knowledge are circumstantial and contextual while dogmas are not.

 

The worst disease that human beings have is when they not only hold to a dogmatic belief (Islam, Christianity, Judaism), but when they feel that they must install this dogma into everyone's mind regardless of reasons, conditions, circumstances, regardless of anything (Islam, Christianity, but not Judaism, because Jews do not evangelize). When humans believe this way, they create divisiveness and strife. They not only offend others by implying that we can't decide, like adults, what is and isn't right for ourselves, but they then go on to use force, including lethal force, to try to spread their dogmas against people's better judgement and will.

 

Thanks to Islam and Christianity many ancient cultures are now forever lost to us.

 

So, ultimately there is neither good nor evil, and yet relatively speaking, there are processes that we find suitable for good life and processes we find unsuitable. Nonetheless, because what we deem suitable or not is not absolute, we should be able to discuss morality like adults, and we must haggle over it while respecting two things: 1. Others have as much say in determining morality as I do, and 2. There is no absolute morality.

 

If we can all respect those two things, we can haggle toward a decent system of morality that's flexible enough to embrace people of different proclivities on one hand, and on the other hand, that's firm and principled enough to stand against abuse and degradation of human beings.

 

And I must say both Christianity and Islam, as they currently stand, are blocking the way toward that future. Especially Islam.

Edited October 29, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

Hi GIH,

 

Excellent post above!

 

I especially like this:

 

What's important is to realize that because we are alive, our morals must be alive also. Living beings cannot abide by dead, unliving morals. This means all dogmatic moralities hurt us, because we grow, but dogmas do not. We are not static, but dogmas are. Dogmas are contrary to life, and I think that's what the Daoists noticed more than anything. So it's less about good and evil and more about inflexible unbending dogmatic mindsets.