Chinese Martial Arts and MMA/UFC

[Bum Grasshopper]

Refer to previous post Tai Chi Masters in the Octagon

[That Guy]

Chances are the top UFC/MMA guys would beat up a top traditional martial artist no matter what the settings and rules.

A no rules fight would probably benefit both sides just as much.

And half the submission moves the MMA fighter can do will become submission breaks, go ahead a break their finger with some little hold that works on average people, but these guys will take the finger break, and then break your whole arm in return.

And you can try and poke eyes and tuff, but these guys are pretty use to blocking, so good luck with that.

Also, they go to the ground on a 1 vs 1 fight, but that doesnt mean the can't throw punches and defend against multiple opponents as well.

 

enjoy your martial arts, but you have to realize its limitations.

[MBZ]

I agree with everseeking and That Guy. I would like to add that back in my grappling days we would roll blindfolded as well. Now I'm certainly not saying it would b a cake walk trying to submit someone who just gouged out my eye but if I had or got you to the ground it would absolutely be possible and if I hadn't already done so I too would b gouging, biting, ripping, AND breaking...because of course I'd be pretty pissed off that I just lost an eye! People use the eye and nut shot a lot as their fight ending choice but even they don't ALWAYS work. The throat shot is king, IF you can hit it AND justify killing someone AND accept possibly going to prison...BLESSINGS!

[Maddie]

Now granted I am not an expert on Chinese Martial arts, but what about Shuai jiao?? I mean isn't that Chinese wrestling?? I've heard someone, somewhere, in a galaxy far far away say that Jujitsu came from Shuai Jiao, similarly to how Karate was derived from Kung Fu. I mean wrestling is no joke, Matt Huges (wrestler)beat Royce Gracie (BJJ demigod).

[LBDaoist]

"Groundfighting" was not even in the lexicon before the Gracies put it there. Grappling, tripping, and occasional sacrifice throws, sure, but intentionally going to the ground together and staying there for the duration, as a strategy? Can you name one CMA, more than 20 years old, that does it?

 

Chinese martial arts are the product of over a thousand years of life and death combat. MMA is a SPORT. I have only been in two fights my entire life, and none since I started training martial arts. Every single fight I have been in, and every fight I have seen all share one thing in common. They are a melee. There are multiple opponents. Most people are only aggressive enough to fight someone else if they have people there to back them up. Even the most out of control drunk and high people are usually aggressive in some sort of public place like a bar or a club, or out on the street with a group of people.

 

The idea of going to the ground and "staying there for the duration" might seem like a good idea in the cage. The reality of street fights seems to be that people will rarely if ever have the luxury of being able to focus entirely on a single opponent.

 

Combat truly is an unpleasant subject. That it has become a "sport" and "entertainment" in our culture makes me sad.

[Maddie]

Chinese martial arts are the product of over a thousand years of life and death combat. MMA is a SPORT. I have only been in two fights my entire life, and none since I started training martial arts. Every single fight I have been in, and every fight I have seen all share one thing in common. They are a melee. There are multiple opponents. Most people are only aggressive enough to fight someone else if they have people there to back them up. Even the most out of control drunk and high people are usually aggressive in some sort of public place like a bar or a club, or out on the street with a group of people.

 

The idea of going to the ground and "staying there for the duration" might seem like a good idea in the cage. The reality of street fights seems to be that people will rarely if ever have the luxury of being able to focus entirely on a single opponent.

 

Combat truly is an unpleasant subject. That it has become a "sport" and "entertainment" in our culture makes me sad.

 

 

I agree that MMA is a sport, but its components are derived from Traditional Martial arts. Obviously a well known component of MMA is BJJ which was derived from Japanese Jujitsu, which was the unarmed combat techniques of the Samurai, who indeed did use his style on the battle field.

In fact my original argument was that CMA in their original pure form actually are MMA since they contained a well rounded systme of fighting, both standing up and on the ground.

[johndoe2012]

Combat truly is an unpleasant subject. That it has become a "sport" and "entertainment" in our culture makes me sad.

 

People are watching too many bad Kung Fu movies.

 

Regarding internal vs. external and the use of "useless" in describing internal arts: I don't think anybody will kid themselves into believing something like Tai Chi Chuan will be effective after one year of training and just going to classes. Internal arts are useful for the rest of your life granted you practise every day and study hard.

 

I guess something like MMA/wrestling etc is for people under 30/40 since after 30 the body begins to detoriate quite rapidly and the body simply can't handle being tossed around etc.

 

Regarding Dr. Yang of YMAA: I wouldn't hold him as an authority on Chinese Martial Arts. Who has given him that position?

[LBDaoist]

I agree that MMA is a sport, but its components are derived from Traditional Martial arts. Obviously a well known component of MMA is BJJ which was derived from Japanese Jujitsu, which was the unarmed combat techniques of the Samurai, who indeed did use his style on the battle field.

 

...And Japanese Jujitsu (I've been told) was derived from Hung Gar (predominantly).

 

I think that before the thread devolves into the inevitable THIS art versus THAT art and my sifu can kick your master's butt discussions, we should just drop it. The original question was why high level CMA practitioners never show up in the cage. That has been answered.

[everseeking]

That Guy said-

 

go ahead a break their finger with some little hold that works on average people, but these guys will take the finger break, and then break your whole arm in return.

 

Not likely. Once you get a broken finger, the affected hand will lose most of its gripping ability. If the fracture is an avulsion fracture, or compound, the hand pretty much wont do much. Unless we are talking about an insect. They can lose limbs and keep fighting.

 

enjoy your martial arts, but you have to realize its limitations.

 

True. MMA training is specific to 1 on 1 scenarios, and how well any fighter does against multiple opponents will be largely determined by personal factors, previous training for it, physical fitness-especially endurance, and the skill, ability, number and intention of the adversaries. Experience is a big part too.

 

If fitness, personal ability, and personal factors were equal, I tend to think that an 'MMA guys' outcome would be significantly effected by what arts they had studied, and the focus of their training.

 

MBZ said-

 

Now I'm certainly not saying it would b a cake walk trying to submit someone who just gouged out my eye but if I had or got you to the ground it would absolutely be possible......

 

 

No, no, NO. If you or anyone else on the planet got their eye gouged out, you would be incapacitated, very likely unconscious, and not likely capable of anything but the most simple defense. What people do when their eye(s) are severely traumatized, is they instinctively clutch their face with their hands. It doesn't matter what art a person studies, an eye is an eye, and as I said earlier-the eyes cant be conditioned. If a person were unaware of the loss of their eye (very unlikely, due to the loss of part of their vision and depth perception), they might be capable of more than just covering up, briefly. This sort of thing is seen-rarely- in war. But keep in mind, the eyes contain/connect to cranial nerves-large nerves that connect directly to the brain.

 

 

I know of 2 interesting instances worth mention-

 

1- an experienced and well ranked 'MMA guy' got in a fight with multiple opponents, and was winning. He had grounded and submitted one guy, and the guy 'tapped'. WITHOUT THINKING, the 'MMA guy' let go, as was typical of his training-and the opponents proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

 

Another 'MMA guy I know of got in a fight with 5 people, and beat the shit out of all of them. Im not sure about the first guy's training background, but the second guy did CMA in addition to his MMA training. However, thats not to say that the CMA training was the determining factor-the second guy apparently has a very intense personality. As I said, 'personal factors'.

 

 

 

I hope TTB doesn't become 'TaoBum-SHIDO'.

 

 

These are my thoughts, based on my knowledge and experience.

 

 

Peace.

[MBZ]

That Guy said-

 

go ahead a break their finger with some little hold that works on average people, but these guys will take the finger break, and then break your whole arm in return.

 

Not likely. Once you get a broken finger, the affected hand will lose most of its gripping ability. If the fracture is an avulsion fracture, or compound, the hand pretty much wont do much. Unless we are talking about an insect. They can lose limbs and keep fighting.

 

enjoy your martial arts, but you have to realize its limitations.

 

True. MMA training is specific to 1 on 1 scenarios, and how well any fighter does against multiple opponents will be largely determined by personal factors, previous training for it, physical fitness-especially endurance, and the skill, ability, number and intention of the adversaries. Experience is a big part too.

 

If fitness, personal ability, and personal factors were equal, I tend to think that an 'MMA guys' outcome would be significantly effected by what arts they had studied, and the focus of their training.

 

MBZ said-

 

Now I'm certainly not saying it would b a cake walk trying to submit someone who just gouged out my eye but if I had or got you to the ground it would absolutely be possible......

 

 

No, no, NO. If you or anyone else on the planet got their eye gouged out, you would be incapacitated, very likely unconscious, and not likely capable of anything but the most simple defense. What people do when their eye(s) are severely traumatized, is they instinctively clutch their face with their hands. It doesn't matter what art a person studies, an eye is an eye, and as I said earlier-the eyes cant be conditioned. If a person were unaware of the loss of their eye (very unlikely, due to the loss of part of their vision and depth perception), they might be capable of more than just covering up, briefly. This sort of thing is seen-rarely- in war. But keep in mind, the eyes contain/connect to cranial nerves-large nerves that connect directly to the brain.

 

 

I know of 2 interesting instances worth mention-

 

1- an experienced and well ranked 'MMA guy' got in a fight with multiple opponents, and was winning. He had grounded and submitted one guy, and the guy 'tapped'. WITHOUT THINKING, the 'MMA guy' let go, as was typical of his training-and the opponents proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

 

Another 'MMA guy I know of got in a fight with 5 people, and beat the shit out of all of them. Im not sure about the first guy's training background, but the second guy did CMA in addition to his MMA training. However, thats not to say that the CMA training was the determining factor-the second guy apparently has a very intense personality. As I said, 'personal factors'.

 

 

 

I hope TTB doesn't become 'TaoBum-SHIDO'.

 

 

These are my thoughts, based on my knowledge and experience.

 

 

Peace.

I attended a seminar once and the very first thing we did before learning any techniques was watch video of real fights, street and prison. They were the most violent things I'd ever seen. This one guy had his eyeball hanging out the socket and another guy had to have over a thousand stitches from knife wounds. Both fights had to be broken up and everyone lived to tell about it. The human body is amazing and can do far more than you might think when in a life or death situation. All I said was that they are no guarantee and I stand by my statement...BLESSINGS!

[gendao]

"Groundfighting" was not even in the lexicon before the Gracies put it there. Grappling, tripping, and occasional sacrifice throws, sure, but intentionally going to the ground together and staying there for the duration, as a strategy? Can you name one CMA, more than 20 years old, that does it?

What about hundreds of years ago?

 

Perhaps they evolved past it. If you got massive internal power and are practically invincible standing...then why would you want to go down to the ground anymore?

 

I predict in 50 years as MMA gradually evolves more internally...they will eventually stay standing as well because they can more easily get the job done there. It will then come full circle to CIMA again.

 

It's like chopsticks. Some people wonder why Chinese "never invented" forks & spoons. When in fact they did (& still use them today for soups & serving)...but just eventually switched to using chopsticks to better suit bite-sized food.

 

MMA is just reinventing the wheel here.

[everseeking]

I attended a seminar once and the very first thing we did before learning any techniques was watch video of real fights, street and prison. They were the most violent things I'd ever seen. This one guy had his eyeball hanging out the socket...

 

I should have been more clear, I meant removing/severing the eye from the body. That would be much more traumatic and shocking to the nervous system. An eye outside of the socket is not uncommon with broken bones in the 'eye socket'. It sounds like these people may have been more familiar with violence than the average person, had a previous history of fighting, etc. At least if they were in prison. Most people (outside of jail/prison) are non violent for the most part. A persons previous experience, as well as whether the fight began as a disagreement vs. attack, or fight for survival is part of what I meant by 'personal factors', among other things.

 

and another guy had to have over a thousand stitches from knife wounds.

 

If there was a knife involved, and it was caught on tape, it is pretty likely that at least one of the persons involved had experience in violent situations. Regardless, lots of stitches and survival means the wounds were non lethal-as in, large arteries weren't severed. The fabled 'death of a thousand cuts' was torturous because it took so long to kill you-because the cuts didn't sever major vessels. I don't mean to detract from how impressive it would be to get lots of cuts and still go on fighting. I just mean that if they got cut REALLY bad, they would drop like a fish, whether they wanted to or not.

 

Both fights had to be broken up and everyone lived to tell about it. The human body is amazing and can do far more than you might think when in a life or death situation.

 

Yes, I agree, having seen it first hand on numerous occasions.

 

All I said was that they are no guarantee and I stand by my statement...BLESSINGS!

 

I agree here too, with the caveat that some things are guaranteed to stop any human-like a sufficiently broken neck. But when in a fight, mistakes happen. Its not easy to 'one strike' someone, and being highly conditioned and comfortable with fighting a resistant opponent is a great way to up you chances of success, should you have to fight.

 

 

 

Peace-

[Maddie]

To me the early UFC's were like a labratory. All the talk was finally put to the test of which style was the best. This was before the UFC bred modern MMA, back when it was one pure style vs another. What it showed almost immediately was that in one on one competitions grappeling almost always defeated striking. Look at Randy Coutours fight last night, he defeated the boxer fast and easy.

Is this not an example of yin overcoming yang? Stiking being a hard yang type of fighting style, and grappeling being the more yielding yin type of style? I know I've heard the arguments that grappeling is not practical for the battlefield, but keep in mind that Jujitsu was developed by the Samurai of Japan for the battlefield.

Now at the risk of sounding like a broken record Shuai Jiao it would seem is the yin aspect of Chinese Martial arts, to compliment the yang striking component. Yang by its nature of being less subtel would of course be more flashy and entertaining on the movie screen than yin grappeling (who wants to watch a movie with grappeling lol). Since it was primarily Kung Fu movies which popularized the style in the West, and since most Kung Fu movies typically only show striking, then I'm sure that would explain the perception of Kung Fu being only stand up / striking in the West.