GREATLY GREAT tao

[lienshan]

7 ==> : A form of existence, a flood, killed the prior to the Son of Heaven.

<== 7 : To be appointed, not inheriting, is the only void and silent birth.

6 ==> : Is it possible, that the mother was in a lower position than Heaven?

7 ==> : Not yet knowing the pronouncement of his personal name?

<== 8 : The action of the spoken title "Great" is the way of the strong "We".

<== 6 : Great, said to be the dam burst of a bursting dam, is called an exaggeration.

8 ==> : An exaggeration is, using analogy, to say: Heaven is greatly great!

<== 7 : The existent state is great like the king is great.

<== 7 : Thereupon one residing king, thereupon Dao of the great quartet:

<== 6 : The standard of days is the earth, and the standard of humans is the land.

7 ==> : The standard of the sky is Dao, and the standard of Dao is its own nature.

 

http://www.daoisopen.com/A11toA13Chapters25516.html

 

The reading direction of the chinese characters in the lines 1, 3, 4, 7, 11

is from above to below (downwards) (from left to right in western style)

The reading direction of the chinese characters in the lines 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10

is from below to abowe (upwards) (from right to left in western style)

The number of characters in the six reversed lines form three divinations,

corresponding to the content of the text written by the diviner Lao Dan:

 

Zhouyi 786776 = hexagram 18.1,4 (Ku zhi Ta Yu)

Guicang 786776 = hexagram 18.2,3,5,6 (Ku zhi Pi)

Lianshan 786776 = hexagram 18.5 (Ku zhi Sun)

 

Two short commentaries:

 

"the prior" is Gun, the father of Yu the great.

His son or grandson Qi was the 1th Son of Heaven.

 

"We" was how a Son of Heaven officially said "I".

[Marblehead]

Good link for people doing their own dirty work. I'm not into that.

 

What you presented is not all of Chapter 25 and it includes extras, I think.

 

Your last two lines (generally represented as four lines) are the only ones that are close to the average translation of this chapter as far as I can tell.

 

You present 11 lines. Dr. Wang presents 12 lines.

 

If you want to do here with what we did with Chapter 1 perhaps we can start with your last two lines, work with it and then consider the other lines?

 

Dr. Wang's last two lines read:

 

Man follows earth. Earth follows heaven.

Heaven follows Tao. Tao follows Tzujan.

 

Your call and your lead.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

If you want to do here with what we did with Chapter 1 perhaps we can start with your last two lines, work with it and then consider the other lines?

 

Dr. Wang's last two lines read:

 

Man follows earth. Earth follows heaven.

Heaven follows Tao. Tao follows Tzujan.

hi Marplehead

 

I understand the last four lines of my translation as a connected philosophical reasoning.

 

The two last lines (Dr. Wang's last four) describes "the great quartet".

The interesting question is: Which four one's are the great four?

 

Maybe the four "standards" (fa)?

Because otherwise I count six: humans, land, days, sky, Dao, and nature!

And Dr. Wang counts five: Man, Earth, Heaven, Tao and Tzujan!

Edited August 28, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

hi Marplehead

 

I understand the last four lines of my translation as a connected philosophical reasoning.

 

The two last lines (Dr. Wang's last four) describes "the great quartet".

The interesting question is: Which four one's are the great four?

 

Maybe the four "standards" (fa)?

Because otherwise I count six: humans, land, days, sky, Dao, and nature!

And Dr. Wang counts five: Man, Earth, Heaven, Tao and Tzujan!

 

Actually, in my understanding, it is still a quartet: Man, Earth, Heaven, and Tao.

 

King is not included separately because king is included in 'Man'.

 

Tzujan does not count because it is beyond 'great'. Beyond valuation.

 

To your six, humans = man, land and days = earth, sky = heaven, and Dao = Tao. Again, nature is beyond great or any valuation.

 

I personally believe that the mention of 'king' was an add-on in order to be politically correct. Back in those days if you didn't mention that the king was great you were in deep do-do.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Actually, in my understanding, it is still a quartet: Man, Earth, Heaven, and Tao.

I read Lao Dan's reasoning this way:

 

The state, the king and the four standards can be great, because they are man-made terms.

 

Humans, land, days, sky, and nature cannot be great, because they aren't man-made terms.

 

Thus: "great Dao" is a man-made term, while "Dao" isn't a man-made term.

 

 

An indication of a reversed reading direction is the term "guo zhong" in line 8.

 

My translation is "state" (nation) corresponding to the term "zhong guo".

"zhong guo" means "China" as a modern term and meant "the Zhou dynasty" in 362 BC.

[Marblehead]

I read Lao Dan's reasoning this way:

 

The state, the king and the four standards can be great, because they are man-made terms.

 

Humans, land, days, sky, and nature cannot be great, because they aren't man-made terms.

 

Thus: "great Dao" is a man-made term, while "Dao" isn't a man-made term.

 

 

An indication of a reversed reading direction is the term "guo zhong" in line 8.

 

My translation is "state" (nation) corresponding to the term "zhong guo".

"zhong guo" means "China" as a modern term and meant "the Zhou dynasty" in 362 BC.

 

WoW! You got all technical on me. Hehehe.

 

Ah, man-made terms. Important concept but totally different discussion. But to comment: Any time we classify something as 'great' we automatically suggest that there are things that are not 'great'. This is dualistic thinking.

 

And yes, in 362 BC China was still in the Warring States period looking for a unified identity.

 

Actually, Dr. Wang never used the word 'great' in his translation.

 

Lines 8 - 10 read as follows:

 

8. Tao is immense; heaven is immense; earth is immense, and

9. its compassion is also immense.

10. Among four immense in the universe, its encompassing nature is most important.

 

(Note that he doesn't say that man or king is immense.)

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

Ah, man-made terms. Important concept but totally different discussion. But to comment: Any time we classify something as 'great' we automatically suggest that there are things that are not 'great'. This is dualistic thinking.

 

And yes, in 362 BC China was still in the Warring States period looking for a unified identity.

I buy your arguement

 

Naming something "great" means, that there are at least two of the kind.

 

Naming something "great", when there is only one of the kind, is an exxageration.

 

The Guodian Laozi chapter 25 is the original Lao Dan text, but his arguementation was outdated 221 BC,

when the warring states period with more kings ended and China was unified with only one king.

Dao De Jing chapter 25 had to be edited or be banned by the Han dynasty emperor.

Like the character "heng" (independent) of chapter 1 became a taboo character,

when the emperor Heng (his personal name) died,

and "heng" had to be edited to the character "chang" (constant) in every written text.

Edited August 28, 2010 by lienshan

[3bob]

Well,

In my interpretation various chapters in the TTC. do not say that the 10,000 are "great" in this context; thus most of mankind is effectively caught up in and are driven by permutated ways that apply to us when we are in states related to the "ten-thousand"; in comparison the "King" is not being driven by or under the same laws as the ten-thousand because such a one is become a self-made "King" through mastery of heart, mind, body and soul through deeper synchronization with the Tao, just as Heaven and Earth have deeper synchronization with the Tao.

 

And no doubt - such is a great work and spiritual journey to be recognized as having been attained by such Sages or "Kings" if you will.

 

Om

Edited August 28, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

 

Dao De Jing chapter 25 had to be edited or be banned by the Han dynasty emperor.

 

I recall having heard something to that effect. Can't remember exactly.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

 

And no doubt - such is a great work and spiritual journey to be recognized as attained by such Sages or kings if you will.

 

Om

 

Yes, there are references to "the Sage King". Not sure if this is original Lao Tzu or stuff rewritten in order to remain politically correct.

 

There are a few other places in the TTC that cause me to think that they are either additions or modifications to the original written TTC.

 

But it is still my guidebook regardless.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

"Any time we classify something as 'great' we automatically suggest that there are things that are not 'great'. This is dualistic thinking."

 

Any time at all??

 

I guess that most of our (well, lots of mine) time and energy is spent grappling with things as they are illustrated in the above. Pretty neat example from Mr Marblehead. If I follow his lead correctly, my immediate assumption ought to be that he IMO has also made "not neat" comments at some point in my past. So that's weird in itself. How could anyone (and much less a dear TTB's) do anything to effect the way I see/feel/understand about them?

 

Woaah.

[lienshan]

Not sure if this is original Lao Tzu or stuff rewritten in order to remain politically correct.

Here's the lese-majesty:

 

tian fa di di fa ren (with the characters written reversed)

tian fa dao dao fa zi ran

 

The rulerly Heaven rules man.

The ruler of Heaven says: The rules of speaking are our own indeed!

 

Translation detailes:

 

di means "earth" but can too mean "-ly" changing the preceeding character into an adverb.

dao means Dao but can too mean "to say, to speak".

 

There were four rules of speaking; four ways for the ruler to address four kinds of subordinates.

That's the pointe of the line 9 phrase "the great four".

And one of the rules, "We", is demonstrated in the line 5.

[Marblehead]

"Any time we classify something as 'great' we automatically suggest that there are things that are not 'great'. This is dualistic thinking."

 

Any time at all??

 

I guess that most of our (well, lots of mine) time and energy is spent grappling with things as they are illustrated in the above. Pretty neat example from Mr Marblehead. If I follow his lead correctly, my immediate assumption ought to be that he IMO has also made "not neat" comments at some point in my past. So that's weird in itself. How could anyone (and much less a dear TTB's) do anything to effect the way I see/feel/understand about them?

 

Woaah.

 

Hehehe. Way to go Kate! Warning!!! If anyone listens to me too much they will likely become just as confused as I am.

 

Remember though, that many of the things I say here are based on my own life experiences and these experiences can never be fully related to others. Therefore some of the things I say may appear to be contradictory if viewed in generalities but when a statement is put into context (which sometimes I am unable to do) then there really is no contradiction.

 

Your view of me is based only on the words I have presented here "and" what you have imagined in your mind. That's all I can say about that. Hehehe. (Strange the things we can imagine based on just a small bit of information.)

 

But yes, the word "great" has its opposite of "small". So if we say some thing is great we are implying that there are some things that are small. In the view of Tao things just are. Each thing is necessary in order to have a whole. The whole is Tao.

 

No, I am not Tao - I still descriminate. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Here's the lese-majesty:

 

tian fa di di fa ren (with the characters written reversed)

tian fa dao dao fa zi ran

 

 

Well Lienshan, you just blew it with that one. Hehehe. I don't buy that at all.

 

The chapter starts out talking about some characteristics of Tao. It continues with the implication that all things, including Tao, follow nature in one way or another.

 

There is no reason to talk about kings or rulers. These are just incidentals of time (and in my opinion a later modification of the original thought).

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

The chapter starts out talking about some characteristics of Tao.

Tao cannot be described, because Tao has no characteristics.

 

 

There is no reason to talk about kings or rulers.

Lao Dan used the speaking rules of a "Son of Heaven" to show the consequences of the slogan "Great Dao",

that was headlining Shen Dao's "daoism".

[Marblehead]

Tao cannot be described, because Tao has no characteristics.

 

I would disagree. (Hehehe. I do that now and then.)

 

Tao is every thing and every non-thing. The very laws of nature are characterists of Tao. Evolution is a characteristic of Tao. Oh!, so many attributes. But it is not a thing in itself so I agree that Tao cannot be described.

 

Lao Dan used the speaking rules of a "Son of Heaven" to show the consequences of the slogan "Great Dao",

that was headlining Shen Dao's "daoism".

 

Yeah, I picked up on that but I don't see where this is justified. Afterall, the term "Son of Heaven" was just something someone made up in order to gain ultimate power and legitimacy.

[lienshan]

Evolution is a characteristic of Tao. Oh!, so many attributes.

The traditionalist reconstructs Tao

The newcomer is going to use Tao

all matter lives in to have

being born from to have no

 

The Guodian Laozi chapter 40

[Marblehead]

The traditionalist reconstructs Tao

The newcomer is going to use Tao

all matter lives in to have

being born from to have no

 

The Guodian Laozi chapter 40

 

Well, I have a different translation (Dr Wang):

 

Reverting (to Oneness) is the way Tao moves.

Softening (with Oneness) is the way Tao functions.

All beings under heaven come into being in Yo.

Yo comes into being in Wu.

 

So you see, Yo (the Manifest) is 'in' Wu (the Mystery). Of course, Wu comes into being in Tao.

 

So of the manifest aspect of Tao there is so very much that can be talked about and we can even define some of Tao's characteristics (the processes of nature).

 

We can know the mother through her sons and daughters.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

 

(the processes of nature)

 

The river and the position of the sea use to rule hundred valley streams.

A king uses this ability to rule hundred valley streams.

Below is reason why the ability rules hundred valley streams.

The influence of the leading people goes to the holy king of man.

Because posthumous goes to the people of his influence.

Superiors use words downwards going to the people of their influence.

The people of superiors is not behind their influence.

Heaven does not harm the leading people of the people.

Do not hate and advance joy below.

The former arguement of Heaven is not its reason.

Arguing goes to the ability of coorperation with no one below.

 

(the Guodian chapter 66)

 

7 ==> : jiang1 hai3 suo3 yi3 wei2 bai3 gu3

7 ==> : wang2 yi3 qi2 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3

7 ==> : xia4 shi4 yi3 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3

<== 7 : wang2 sheng4 ren2 zhi1 zai4 min2 qian2

7 ==> : yi3 shen1 hou4 zhi1 qi2 zai4 min2

8 ==> : shang4 yi3 yan2 xia4 zhi1 qi2 zai4 min2

6 ==> : shang4 min2 fu2 hou4 qi2 zai4

<== 6 : min2 qian2 min2 fu2 hai2 tian1

<== 6 : xia4 le4 jin4 er2 fu2 yan2

<== 6 : yi3 qi2 bu4 zheng1 gu4 tian1

<== 6 : xia4 mo4 neng2 yu3 zhi1 zheng1

 

The corresponding divination numbers are 777786 (hexagram 33)

[Marblehead]

 

(the Guodian chapter 66)

 

 

The key concept here being non-contention. To follow the natural flow of things results in few obstacles.

 

I have no problen with this translation although it reads a little clunky.

 

No need here for me to present an alternate translation because the key concept is presented.

 

Peace & Love!