sean Posted April 28, 2006 Craig, thanks for all the info, I will check that out for sure. Freeform, yeah, not into the consumption either. But I can get down with sigils, the intentions of which are mostly aimed right back at my practice ... IME, the power of having a (at least close to) full body orgasm that is just torn from your body spontaneously from a melting sexual encounter, when the energy of this is consciously directed in a sense as a sacrifice to your Ishta, your highest ideal, at the very least my Bhakti for the path raises a lot. Whereas trying to grind out weeks and weeks of retention get's kind of counterproductive for me. If I had more time to meditate my 70% Pietro safety range would likely increase. I agree with Smile though, retention is worse than pointless IME without a solid daily practice. And then there are other factors too, like the frequency / intensity / duration / type of sexual stimulation you encounter during any given time period. Masturbating or having sex every day changes the dynamic quite a bit obviously, and IMO 30 days of sexually active retention is a different puppy altogether than 30 days of keeping your underwear on. Not better or worse, just different ... Sean Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pietro Posted April 28, 2006 Nice phrase. Captures a lot of wisdom concisely. It is not mine. It is the underlying philosopy in the whole water method. You find it again and again in Bruce's books. I agree with you Pietro. We... agree... on... retention??? Wow. Must be the first time from when I left the HT! really??? are you supposed to be able to get the energy back from this practice of consumption? i'd consider giving it a try.... i mean i've drunk my own urine plenty of times, administered to myself coffee enemas, probiotic implants and sesame oil implants.... i've eaten tadpoles and insect larvae.... this would be another weird thing i'd be able to say i've tried hehe. honestly, i'm trying to have the attitude of trying anything (within beneficial reason, i wouldn't try anything outright stupid) once and with an open mind.... hahaha. There is a whole world of eating high meat out there. And worse... but let's not enter into that. Eating (your own!) semen is quite ok. It made me understand why my gf was having problems with it. It is so Y*A*N*G that it is really hard to absorb. She was having skin rush. As an enthusiastic wanker (it alleviates the need for real human contact & the subsequent demand for emotional maturity on my part ) Im quite interested in this Tribulis stuff y'all have been going on about.BUT,are there any contraindications ? Should some people NOT take the stuff ? Would be VERY interested in feedback on this point. Regards,Cloud. I am totally ignorant regarding chinese herbs and similar. But I do remember Bruce saying something about not taking supplements before age 50 or 60 to make sure that later in life they still work for you. Since I don't take herbs in general I quite happily adopted that philosophy. No action was necessary on my part. I actually prefer the more balanced Taoist approach and definetly can't see myself as a celibate. Sean's once a month deal with jing excercsises/sexual qigong thrown in weekly sounds reasonable and doable long term. Cameron, your aim sound way more reasonable than before. Well done! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smile Posted April 28, 2006 Masturbating or having sex every day changes the dynamic quite a bit obviously, and IMO 30 days of sexually active retention is a different puppy altogether than 30 days of keeping your underwear on. Not better or worse, just different ... When the blissful states start going through your body because of meditation, the whole idea of sex or ejuculation is 'non-issue'. It's kind of like Plato said after his Aneros expereince that lasted a couple of hours. "Who needs regular orgasms?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sean Posted April 28, 2006 When the blissful states start going through your body because of meditation, the whole idea of sex or ejuculation is 'non-issue'. It's kind of like Plato said after his Aneros expereince that lasted a couple of hours. "Who needs regular orgasms?" I can imagine how that could be possible ... I think I've tasted states like that, where I am so open and full of bliss that sex / stimulation is just another part of my field of circulating energy ... a desire to expel just doesn't arise at all. Still, setting aside compulsive desire for sex/orgasm, don't you think that consistent, external, erotic stimulation moves your internal energy around and makes the dynamic different than say a celibate monk who only touches his dick to piss? Basically the distinction between cool and hot alchemy, really. Sean Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smile Posted April 28, 2006 Still, setting aside compulsive desire for sex/orgasm, don't you think that consistent, external, erotic stimulation moves your internal energy around and makes the dynamic different than say a celibate monk who only touches his dick to piss? Basically the distinction between cool and hot alchemy, really. It definately moves it around, but aroused sexual energy is hard to transform into chi. You have to work twice as long. It's kind of like raw milk- if you beat on it for a while, it becomes butter. And you can't return butter to the milk state anymore. If you heat it up, it will become a yellowish clear liquid. Not the same as the original substance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sean Posted April 28, 2006 It definately moves it around, but aroused sexual energy is hard to transform into chi. You have to work twice as long. It's kind of like raw milk- if you beat on it for a while, it becomes butter. And you can't return butter to the milk state anymore. If you heat it up, it will become a yellowish clear liquid. Not the same as the original substance. Hey, I have a question. How long do you, or anyone else, think it takes for sexual energy to move from aroused to unaroused? IMO it's obvious there is an accelerated vibration that persists well after a sexual encounter. And this is really what I am getting at here. That the alchemy of a sexually active person (self stimulation or otherwise) is different than the alchemy of someone who never stimulates this energy at all. In the heat of a sexual encounter itself, I think it's pretty much too late to cultivate, you are just riding your attainments at that point. But even afterwards chi is more excited and rammy. I've been consistently curious how this alters our path. Retention or no retention, if there is consistent sexual stimulation we are doing something different than monks, no? Sean Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pietro Posted April 29, 2006 Hey, I have a question. How long do you, or anyone else, think it takes for sexual energy to move from aroused to unaroused? IMO it's obvious there is an accelerated vibration that persists well after a sexual encounter. And this is really what I am getting at here. That the alchemy of a sexually active person (self stimulation or otherwise) is different than the alchemy of someone who never stimulates this energy at all. In the heat of a sexual encounter itself, I think it's pretty much too late to cultivate, you are just riding your attainments at that point. But even afterwards chi is more excited and rammy. I've been consistently curious how this alters our path. Retention or no retention, if there is consistent sexual stimulation we are doing something different than monks, no? Sean Your intuition is correct. Many people believe once the jing has been aroused it is just not possible to bring it back to the unaroused state. And if it is possible I never managed to bring it back. As such the practice with cold unaroused energy is significantly different from any practice with aroused energy. And in my experience the only one which have any hope to attain complete retention. Yet Ron would disagree as he seem to have managed to work with extreemly aroused energy and complete retention. But at what price! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanC Posted April 29, 2006 Too much retention can lead to problems, I personally think it is no good for mental health in the long run, its in our DNA to procreate and have sex, we have to ejaculate every now and again. Anyone know of any Qigong,Yoga,meditation authors that dont adhere to strict retention, most books I have read over the years all say too much ejaculation is bad, but seriously unless you are a monk why would you want to go through life not experiencing the joy of ejaculation, it doesnt make sense. There has to be some middle ground here, do you think that retention is going to make you live any longer then someone who cultivates but doesnt practice retention, I really dont think you so. Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mandrake Posted April 29, 2006 but seriously unless you are a monk why would you want to go through life not experiencing the joy of ejaculation, it doesnt make sense. Daniel Hahahah! Sorry, but something about that wording, 'joy of ejaculation' is just so ... Anyway, personally I don't agree. For me, there is some joy in orgasm, mind you - not ejaculation. If I ejaculate I can feel it in my whole body, and that physical feeling is no good. No joy there for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted April 30, 2006 It's all about finding balance. Whether you ejaculate or don't ejaculate is not so much the issue as the time of year, your personal level of develpment, your mood etc. Sometimes it is best to ejaculate sometimes to do retention. And forcing retention is useless. If your doing it, it should be the natural by product of your high level spiritual develpment rather than a discipline. Unless your a sex addict jerking off every day or something than you need some discipline! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smile Posted April 30, 2006 Hey, I have a question. How long do you, or anyone else, think it takes for sexual energy to move from aroused to unaroused? IMO it's obvious there is an accelerated vibration that persists well after a sexual encounter. And this is really what I am getting at here. That the alchemy of a sexually active person (self stimulation or otherwise) is different than the alchemy of someone who never stimulates this energy at all. In the heat of a sexual encounter itself, I think it's pretty much too late to cultivate, you are just riding your attainments at that point. But even afterwards chi is more excited and rammy. I've been consistently curious how this alters our path. Retention or no retention, if there is consistent sexual stimulation we are doing something different than monks, no? I don't see eroused sexual energy being able to convert back to its original state, but I'm probably too critical of sexual cultivation practices in general and I shouldn't be. It's totally possible if you find the right partner. My point of the whole thing is when you have in full body internal orgasm that lasts hours because of your cultivation would you still consider sex such a great thing? You would do it probably for other reasons like deeper connection etc But we need to aim for the highest goal here. If we don't, why would we expect to get anything different? That's why Plato raised a question of goal setting. That's what pushes you to wake up at 6 am in the morning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted April 30, 2006 That's what pushes you to wake up at 6 am in the morning. I enrolled in 7 am classes all summer so it would force me to get up at 5 am to meditate. Man, I better get my shit together and quick! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
