Increasing BONE Mass

[宁]

The only source I had told me that if you increase glutation levels, the bone mass will increase also.

I know how to build up strong bones, and 'fill' them up with marrow.

But I'm not sure enlarging them is possible also...

 

Thoughts?

[Encephalon]

The only source I had told me that if you increase glutation levels, the bone mass will increase also.

I know how to build up strong bones, and 'fill' them up with marrow.

But I'm not sure enlarging them is possible also...

 

Thoughts?

 

You're quite right. It's not possible. I've been trying to increase my boner mass for ages and it just seems to be a false hope.

[liminal_luke]

I don't personally know whether it's possible to increase bone mass, but I attended a healing tao workshop led by Juan Li once where he related that a student of his did just that. She had a life threatening condition related to osteoporosis and he advised her to stand in the embracing the tree pose for two hours a day and do bone breathing. Juan Li says she quickly began to recover and after several years of this admittedly kind of intense practice regained all of her bone mass.

[Ramon25]

Its possible but would require effort and the right supplements, exercise routine and diet. But yes its doable. Do you mean glutathione?

[Trunk]

.. the bone mass will increase also.

I know how to build up strong bones, and 'fill' them up with marrow.

But I'm not sure enlarging them is possible also...

 

Umm, just making sure there's not a confusion here.

Increase in "mass" can be accomplished by increase in density, with no increase in size. Did you mistakenly equate "increase in mass" as "increase in size"?

[Birch]

Wasn't there something on here about rebounding for that?

 

I often think that the inability to treat many physical issues stems from models that preclude useful (I'm not saying "incorrect") understanding and mapping of them. For example, I grew up with the idea that bones were just this very solid thing (imagine the doctor's skeleton ) and they were connected to each other (as in the song ) or in some cases (like the spine) stacked and "weighing" down upon each other.

 

Decades later, I looked inside my first bone on a plate and discovered it was soft inside. Then I started reading stuff about the mobility of marrow. Bone can reform (in fact many spine "issues" seem to stem from bones "mistakenly" fusing when they "shouldn't"...

 

Bone also seems to be "easier" to reestablish than tendons or muscles or joints. Maybe supporting those tendons and muscles and joints could be part of the support the bone needs to do its thing?

 

I'd also add. IMO and small experience the body wants to live, to survive and be healthy.

[mYTHmAKER]

One can also improve bone density by wearing a weight vest

[Upfromtheashes]

Ok I dont have any scientific data or anything else but from observations of the body if one loads the bones with weight training or really any type of strain bone mass should increase -The body is very adaptable with the right stimulus - I would agree with the weight vest- But heavy compound body movements would prob work very well also - squats/ deadlifts - ever see a powerlifter?

My guess also would be that nutritional supplements would be secondary - Sure good nutrition and quality foods will be important but it is the stimulus or the demand that will cause the uptake of those nutrients -

[Taomeow]

Bones grow, get remodeled, and increase their density in response to piesoelectric stimulation. The book to shed the light is "The Body Electric," and here's tons more references:

 

http://silver.neep.w...BoneElectr.html

 

By the way, I don't have the patience to look for it right now but I distinctly remember uprooting information that some types of qigong, taijiquan, sword and pole routines, many martial exercises that emphasize hitting stuff, assorted hitters traditionally used on the body, and hitting impact on acupoints produce the very piesoelectric discharges in the bones that are the signalling mechanism for the growth of their density and simultaneously the electrochemical conductor of minerals that will accomplish same if you combine the routines with an adequate diet.

 

Which brings me back to taijiquan's "soft on the outside, hard on the inside" mantra. It means soft, flexible, pliable muslces -- and hard, tough, dense bones. (These are the effects opposite of what you get with all sports/athletic/bodybuilding routines, incidentally.) Chen style I'm partial to has jumps, feet stomps, and explosive punches which feel -- FEEL -- like electrical discharges through the bones... and probably are.

[Sahaj Nath]

Bones grow, get remodeled, and increase their density in response to piesoelectric stimulation. The book to shed the light is "The Body Electric," and here's tons more references:

 

http://silver.neep.w...BoneElectr.html

 

 

indeed.

 

 

bones are piezoelectric, meaning when you apply stress to them, they generate electromagnetic fields. this is one reason why shaking practice is such a powerful activity and can accelerate progress without transmission. it's one reason, anyway.

 

i would certainly recommend shaking practice. i think it's a lot less intimidating than weight-lifting or tree stance, and a lot less expensive than buying a weighted vest. just put on some music and shake & move. as you build strength, extend your time and increase your vigor. self-pace. bones respond to the demand that is placed on them. people lose bone density later in life primarily because they become more and more sedentary. shaking practice is a good way to get the juices flowing, AND to place greater demand on the skeletal frame at whatever level is comfortable for the individual.

 

start light and easy, but just get moving.

 

 

not knowing anything about the person in question, this would be my immediate recommendation. this and deep, relaxed breathing, which can eventually lead to body breathing. not only would the breathing stimulate energy in the areas of focus, but it will also stimulate greater alkalinity and oxygenation overall.

[goldisheavy]

The only source I had told me that if you increase glutation levels, the bone mass will increase also.

I know how to build up strong bones, and 'fill' them up with marrow.

But I'm not sure enlarging them is possible also...

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I thought this was well known already. Yes it can be done. Bone mass increases from stress. Lift heavy. Take up power lifting or Olympic weightlifting and you'll increase your bone mass (and density). I don't think you'll see a huge increase from simply healthy exercise though. You'll need to be lifting something like half a car in weight regularly to see some serious changes. Well, not literally, but basically heavy heavy heavy.

[Scadder21]

What is the rational behind increasing bone density through the weighted vest. I don't doubt it I'm just curious why this is true.

[goldisheavy]

What is the rational behind increasing bone density through the weighted vest. I don't doubt it I'm just curious why this is true.

 

Good question. I don't seek increased bone density. But if someone wants it, why not? It's not worse than many other hobbies people take up.

 

My guess is that people want to be stronger, more unbreakable and more imposing. I don't think it's necessary to have high bone mass for health.

[宁]

My guess is that people want to be stronger, more unbreakable and more imposing.

I don't think it's necessary to have high bone mass for health.

For health, no, not necessary, yet it seems bones are related to spirit practice.

Let me give some example: most shaman practices involve also bone practice.

One criteria for healers used to be bone mass.

Mongols choose their wives using this criteria (am I right Taomeow?)

 

It seems to be related with te ability to Fa Jin, Fa Qi, and Fa Shen.

 

I was reffering to increasing the bones in size, and GIH's response seems the most logical.

As logical as it is, I'm still not sure how it's possible to be done.

I do practice tree standing, (also own a copy of The Body Electric).

 

 

Regarding the suplemental part, I was reffering to glutathione, yes. There are a couple of 'modern day' masters that I know of, highly interested in glutathione.

Ya Mu is one of them..

Here are some info's on it, by wiki:

 

Function

 

Glutathione exists in reduced (GSH) and oxidized (GSSG) states.

 

In healthy cells and tissue, more than 90% of the total glutathione pool is in the reduced form (GSH) and less than 10% exists in the disulfide form (GSSG). An increased GSSG-to-GSH ratio is considered indicative of oxidative stress.

 

Glutathione has multiple functions:

 

* It is the major endogenous antioxidant produced by the cells, participating directly in the neutralization of free radicals and reactive oxygen compounds, as well as maintaining exogenous antioxidants such as vitamins C and E in their reduced (active) forms.>

 

* Regulation of the nitric oxide cycle[16], which is critical for life but can be problematic if unregulated[17]

 

* Through direct conjugation, it detoxifies many xenobiotics (foreign compounds) and carcinogens, both organic and inorganic. This includes heavy metals such as mercury, lead, and arsenic.

 

* It is essential for the immune system to exert its full potential, e.g. (1) modulating antigen presentation to lymphocytes, thereby influencing cytokine production and type of response (cellular or humoral) that develops, (2) enhancing proliferation of lymphocytes thereby increasing magnitude of response, (3) enhancing killing activity of cytotoxic T cells and NK cells, and (4) regulating apoptosis, thereby maintaining control of the immune response.

 

* It plays a fundamental role in numerous metabolic and biochemical reactions such as DNA synthesis and repair, protein synthesis, prostaglandin synthesis, amino acid transport and enzyme activation. Thus, every system in the body can be affected by the state of the glutathione system, especially the immune system, the nervous system, the gastrointestinal system and the lungs.[4]

[Taomeow]

 

For health, no, not necessary, yet it seems bones are related to spirit practice.

Let me give some example: most shaman practices involve also bone practice.

One criteria for healers used to be bone mass.

Mongols choose their wives using this criteria (am I right Taomeow?)

 

 

Indigenous traditions had vastly different ideals of female beauty and paid attention to quite different features than those their neighbors might find attractive, but there's one feature they noticed that they all had in common as the make-or-break-beauty criterion -- the hips to waist ratio. It didn't matter if you were supposed to be fat or thin -- the ratio all cultures found attractive was a constant, and that's a function of a properly formed skeleton (for which adequate bone density, coupled however with elasticity, is a prerequisite. Weightlifting, by the way, helps gain density at the expense of elasticity, and those dense but not pliable enough bones might not break as easily from a blow but are a nemesis for the joints -- weightlifters debilitated by arthritis later in life are more the rule than the exception.) Anyway... indigenous men ISO their women (and vice versa) used to notice what we stopped noticing very recently... and I'm sure it's a very unhealthy trend for the species, to be conditioned to notice and favor the more superficial traits over the more fundamental ones.

[joeblast]

Bones grow, get remodeled, and increase their density in response to piesoelectric stimulation. The book to shed the light is "The Body Electric," and here's tons more references:

 

http://silver.neep.w...BoneElectr.html

 

By the way, I don't have the patience to look for it right now but I distinctly remember uprooting information that some types of qigong, taijiquan, sword and pole routines, many martial exercises that emphasize hitting stuff, assorted hitters traditionally used on the body, and hitting impact on acupoints produce the very piesoelectric discharges in the bones that are the signalling mechanism for the growth of their density and simultaneously the electrochemical conductor of minerals that will accomplish same if you combine the routines with an adequate diet.

 

Which brings me back to taijiquan's "soft on the outside, hard on the inside" mantra. It means soft, flexible, pliable muslces -- and hard, tough, dense bones. (These are the effects opposite of what you get with all sports/athletic/bodybuilding routines, incidentally.) Chen style I'm partial to has jumps, feet stomps, and explosive punches which feel -- FEEL -- like electrical discharges through the bones... and probably are.

mmmhmmm!

[MBZ]

Bones grow, get remodeled, and increase their density in response to piesoelectric stimulation. The book to shed the light is "The Body Electric," and here's tons more references:

 

http://silver.neep.w...BoneElectr.html

 

By the way, I don't have the patience to look for it right now but I distinctly remember uprooting information that some types of qigong, taijiquan, sword and pole routines, many martial exercises that emphasize hitting stuff, assorted hitters traditionally used on the body, and hitting impact on acupoints produce the very piesoelectric discharges in the bones that are the signalling mechanism for the growth of their density and simultaneously the electrochemical conductor of minerals that will accomplish same if you combine the routines with an adequate diet.

 

Which brings me back to taijiquan's "soft on the outside, hard on the inside" mantra. It means soft, flexible, pliable muslces -- and hard, tough, dense bones. (These are the effects opposite of what you get with all sports/athletic/bodybuilding routines, incidentally.) Chen style I'm partial to has jumps, feet stomps, and explosive punches which feel -- FEEL -- like electrical discharges through the bones... and probably are.

Indeed foot stomping...start out light and easy though...BLESSINGS!

[Scadder21]

Bones grow, get remodeled, and increase their density in response to piesoelectric stimulation. The book to shed the light is "The Body Electric," and here's tons more references:

 

http://silver.neep.w...BoneElectr.html

 

By the way, I don't have the patience to look for it right now but I distinctly remember uprooting information that some types of qigong, taijiquan, sword and pole routines, many martial exercises that emphasize hitting stuff, assorted hitters traditionally used on the body, and hitting impact on acupoints produce the very piesoelectric discharges in the bones that are the signalling mechanism for the growth of their density and simultaneously the electrochemical conductor of minerals that will accomplish same if you combine the routines with an adequate diet.

 

Which brings me back to taijiquan's "soft on the outside, hard on the inside" mantra. It means soft, flexible, pliable muslces -- and hard, tough, dense bones. (These are the effects opposite of what you get with all sports/athletic/bodybuilding routines, incidentally.) Chen style I'm partial to has jumps, feet stomps, and explosive punches which feel -- FEEL -- like electrical discharges through the bones... and probably are.

 

Interesting can yousay more about the foot stomping and jumping? What Chen style are you partial too I read somewhere that by going up on your toes and then letting all the weight drop down hard to your heels will caus a jolt through your body and help strengthen the bones. Is your practice similar?

[metal dog]

Increasing bone mass...can it be done?

 

Yes. If we are talking about restoring loss mass, size or repair and the body's systems for repair are not severely compromised. And you can improve the quality of your already healthy bones to a natural extent. But if you are looking to gain skeletal height or the beauty of a cro-mag...then probably not...without some growth hormone injections.

 

Everyone here has contributed something useful to help answer this question or broach this subject.

Nicely done.

 

It is important to note that bones grow, in density, size and/or mass, in response to the stress that is placed upon them. Which is why walking, light jogging, rebounding, physical activities and exercise are all major contributors to bone growth and maintaining the health of the bones. Old age is marked by hormonal changes, changes in lifestyle and reduced activity...thus usually a change in bone density. Pregnancy can also be a drain off a mother's reserves. Astronauts in zero gravity have to take precautions for extended periods in space and resultant bone problems...because there is no gravity or force upon the skeleton.

 

Diet, lifestyle and physical activity are the root considerations here barring anything genetic or related to more extreme medical problems that may require professional opinion and treatment.

 

The work of Becker and the piezo-electric mechanism are all sound science. I had just commented in another thread on "physical chi gong" on how fascia corresponds with 75% of all acu-meridians in the body and fascial planes have a crystalline structure that also works in a piezo-electric fashion.

 

And there are also basic electric physical therapy rehabilitation units called "bone growth stimulators" that use electricity to supposedly assist in local area, usually post-surgical, bone growth. They stimulate local circulation and supposedly create an environment to attract bone growth factors into the area needing it particularly with spinal fusions.

 

But one's physical stature may not be suitable with certain types of exercise due to the compressive forces that can be harmful to the high-water content soft tissue structures of ligaments, fascia, tendons, spinal discs, cartilage, bursa, etc. Especially over twenty, thirty, forty years.

Some bodies are more apt to heavy powerlifting than others.

 

Moderation over a long time is key here. As too much compression and shearing forces in the body can help bones grow but destroy many other body components. So, no...you don't need to lift extremely large weights to stimulate bone growth, but moderate amounts of activity over time. If the body can take it then resistance training using calisthetic or bodyweight-only exercises and apparatus training (weights/machines) safely used would provide good stimulation over the long term with a sound program and a firm emphasis on proper exercise selection and technique geared toward short and long-term injury prevention. Good rest periods for proper rebuilding of the body's reserves and healing following the catabolic activity of resistance training. You are breaking down the body a little bit in an effort to build it back up stronger than it was before. So proper recuperation is just as important as the exercise. Most don't actually respect recuperation enough in the beginning due to enthusiasm and thinking the more the better. Which is not the case for most genetically average, non-chemically enhanced, normal lifestyle type individuals. There is a way to train with resistance without losing flexibility.

 

Strenuous exercise acidifies the body's ph.

Over-acidity of the body over time, not only the body's fluids, but its tissues can contribute to bone loss particularly later in life. This can come from the acid-alkaline considerations of diet, stress levels, the type and intensity of exercise, mental outlook and other factors. A deep tissue massage that is uncomfortable, but therapeutic, may be more acid forming than a total light relaxation focused massage which may be more alkaline in its reaction on the body. Not enough of a difference to jeopardize health, but something beneficial can go either way. Same with weight lifting...you can overdo it over time in the wrong way for the average individual to pursue this form of exercise. An athlete, bodybuilder or powerflifter has totally different considerations and their athleticism demands pushing their body's to the edge of performance and many times to their detriment. But most of them are aware of the sacrifice they make of themselves. I am more of a longevity kind-of-guy. Good health over the long term with minimal injury and insult to my body's systems in the process. (If you look and perform ten to twenty years younger than the typical person of your chronological age then you are doing pretty good. If you are forty with the body of a twenty-five year old then that is damn good. If you have endless energy and enthusiasm while experiencing a runner's high all day long...then yeehaw for you.)

 

So it is important not to pursue something with resultant diminishing returns....as in all things.

 

I think exercise and the force on the skeletal structure is extremely important. Just as important as providing the ingredients and nutritional components necessary for healthy bone growth or maintenance.

 

But usually, in this day's modern diet, the first consideration is what you may be doing that is sapping your bones of their size and density. Not just the major constituents of bone, but the co-factors that enable the constituents of bone to effectively become the bones and the type of internal milieu (chemically) that favors the co-factors and the constituents to all work together.

If the internal milieu is over-acidic to the extreme, this may take from the bones and inhibit any strategies at regaining losses in density or creating stronger bones. As an example, it is known that the extreme acidity in Cola can contact the teeth and turn them soft and to mush in an astonishing amount of time. So much so that with children's teeth it is widely advised to keep them from sugary cola drinks. This same principle works with the bones and not just direct contact but by keeping the internal milieu and chemistry in an acidic state...not just body fluids, but the body tissues.

The most extremely acid producing substances are...

Alcohol, cigarettes, most drugs (recreational, over-the-counter, prescription), white sugar, refined flour and most refined and industrialized food products. Meat is acidic, but in my opinion if it is eaten wisely and in moderation the nutritional benefits of meat outweigh the acidity which the body, working efficiently, can handle. But I don't think that the acidity imposed upon the body by alcohol, drugs and sugar can be effectively remedied and offset by any methods other than not consuming them. No cleansing, supplement or whatever is powerful enough to totally cancel out their insidious effects upon the body.

This is the scourge of modernity. Lack of real wholesome activity and lack of real wholesome sustenance.

 

If you are not already aware of it...here is the link to the Weston A. Price Foundation. http://www.westonaprice.org/

 

Weston was a dentist who traveled the world looking at primitive and tribal people examining their teeth, palate and bone structures. When he discovered these people were examples of excellent health over the western modern people he then examined what they at and how the lived. And he documented it in his book..."Nutrition and Physical Degeneration". Bone health was key to his observations and conclusions regarding traditional diets.

(And already a bunch of debunkers have come out of the woodwork to mooter the Foundation's later and current work, but just consider reading his original book and considering the concepts. No one else has added this type of work to dietary science from this perspective.)

 

I would consider more traditional and nature eating methods before consuming supplements, but would use supplements should a drastic bone loss case needs to be addressed. Even medical advice. But his involves getting proportions of nutrients and co-factors correct and using supplements that actually work or are absorbed by the body. There is a lot of marketed crap out there that does nothing.

 

The most direct way, in my opinion, to get the raw material needed by bones is to consume bones themselves.

 

Fish head and skeletons in fish broth and soups. When eating fish buy the whole fish and cook with bones in. As these nutrients will be released into the meat. This is the backbone, pardon the pun, of cooking in much of the east.

 

Chicken stocks, broths and soups made from a whole boiled chicken with the head and feet on it. Just like grandma used to make.

 

Beef bone broth, stocks and soups.

 

Good whole, organic, certified, clean raw milk from cows (pasture fed on green grass) or goats.

Or whey from this milk should one not want to eat the solids. The enzymes in this substance are immensely important for bone growth...and growth in general. The most absorbable protein in existence is whey.

 

The you should consider the co-factors of Vitamins A, D and minerals. All of which should come from natural and traditional sources. (The Vitamin A from animal food is not the same as Vitamin A from vegetables). I could write further recommendations on these sources but time restricts at the moment.

 

My Somali friend tells me that it is established tradition that consuming and massaging the body with a pure unfiltered sesame oil works wonders for making bones strong and healing breaks.

 

Then, especially if you are vegetarian, consider non-animal sources of nutrients and co-factors.

 

Then graduate to any superfoods or bio-available supplements that could be useful. Avoid the mass-marketed hyped crap filling most of the shelves.

 

And then consider the energetic aspects related to your internal energy practices.

Your stress levels and joy levels in life are always key to health overall.

 

Right kind of activity-exercise, avoid depleting substances, events or people, take in what you need through diet, cleanse appropriately and safely, use medical methods when necessary, utilize the modalities of Traditional Chinese Medicine and internal energy practices...and whatever else you can think of.

 

Last time I checked glutathione supplementation only worked for 30% of those who took it. And after some initial benefit for this 30% some of them only received benefit up to a certain point or after a certain duration of use.

Edited August 31, 2010 by metal dog

[Maddie]

I did this intresting experiment about a year and a half ago. I began circulating jing through my Macrocosmic orbit, but not just through the meridians but also through the bone marrow. My reason for doing so was to increase my Karate abilities. The results that I noticed were increased strength, harder bones, more indurance, and better ability to take a punch. Also I was taking a swim class at the time at the University and I was able to swim further and faster. After I had been doing this a while my wife one day stopped and said "something looks different about you" and I was like "what?". She looked me over a few minutes and said "you look taller". So we measured me, and I had gone from a little over 6'1.5" to just about 6'2"!! I can not say 100% that it was a result of this practice (as it was not done in a scientific study) but during my meditation I would notice that the growth plate in my bones did seem to feel stimulated when I was running jing through it, so who knows. I do know that I am now slightly taller than before I did that.

Edited August 31, 2010 by dmattwads

[goldisheavy]

As logical as it is, I'm still not sure how it's possible to be done.

 

If you practice lifting heavy weights (heavier than 400 lbs), after a long time of this, your bone mass will increase. Obviously you have to slowly work up to that level if you are really serious about using the weight lifting method. If you've never done it before, you can't just start with 400lbs (roughly 200 kilos, yea I know 1kg=2.2lbs).

 

But, that's just one method that I've read about. There probably are other methods, like using your mind to direct your bone growth. But in order to use the mind for this kind of thing, you have to have appropriate beliefs (appropriate mindset, in other words) and you have to be resolved on it.

 

In any case, unless you plan on participating in some combat or warfare, I don't know why you need heavy and thick bones. If you want to heal people, I think you can do it with any kind of bones. What about qi gong practices that aim for light body? Like the people who walk on eggs? Do you think they also have heavy and thick bones?

Edited August 31, 2010 by goldisheavy

[mYTHmAKER]

Good question. I don't seek increased bone density. But if someone wants it, why not? It's not worse than many other hobbies people take up.

 

My guess is that people want to be stronger, more unbreakable and more imposing. I don't think it's necessary to have high bone mass for health.

 

Wearing a weight vest for increased bone density is good for people who don't like to go to the gym and lift weights.

Older people who are not athletically inclined or who no longer do heavy work. One can wear it while doing other activities such as walking, cleaning the house , preparing food etc.

 

A rebounder or trampoline is also good for increasing bone density.