Everyone list your goals!

[voice]

Alive to myselves, skillful with all.

Edited April 29, 2006 by voice

[thaddeus]

But to apply the mindset of goal-achievers and businesspeople to spiritual practice, that's s.th. I am highly suspicous about. I feel more comfortable maybe with the mindet of the artist when it comes to this field.

Goals can create inner tension so easily;

affenbrot

Hi Affenbrot, of course artists have goals. I'm sure everyone has heard that goals are SMART..meaning specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and have a time component (i.e. 'in 2 months').

Of course if you dream up a goal that is not achievable or realistic, you will feel bad.

But another thing you mentioned..about feeling tension..tension is necessary. We need tension. Being spiritual is not about wandering around. I think someone mentioned something about being slothful.

 

I'm reading an interesting book about Genes right now that I should go run up and get the title. But basically this scientist is saying that our Gene expression is not so determined and can change based on our environment..meaning environmental stressors (including our mind and emotions) can bring out talents.

 

But it's very interesting to hear general agreement between the lines that there is some kind of conflict between being spiritual or artistic and being business like. I don't see the conflict. THere are ample opportunities for personal growth and spirituality in the workplace.

T

[Yoda]

I think that there's yin and yang to getting the job done, and the business plan, focused desire, "bodhisattva fever" etc is the yang part. I think that the yin part is the relaxing and allowing things to just chill and not need to change one single bit--like the Lao Tzu quote. Too much in either direction and you can get stuck.

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[Pietro]

An important point when making goals is how do you know when you've achived your goal?... Many people dont do this and end up chasing something in their fantasies, not realising that they've already got what they were looking for.

 

Now that's a great gem! You know your posts contain quite some insight sometimes.

 

Negative goals tend to bring about negative results... if the captain of the ship said "I dont want to get to africa" he would aimlessly sail around and not get to the right destination. Perhaps a better formulation would be "I want to be more proactive"... how would you know when you're proactive? perhaps you wouldn't have time to watch tv - and that's how you'd know...

 

I dunno why, but I expect that if the captain were to say 'I dont want to get to Africa' I would expect him to reach it as soon as he get slightly distracted. Especially if the boat is governed directly by the mind.

 

P.

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[SunDog]

All right, so maybe what I'm really saying, is I want to relax more. Sung, here I come.

[Smile]

I don't really have long term goals. The only thing very important to me is to do my meditaton and chi kung practices every day. So it's like mini-goals day after day. Never ending spiral...

[minimoke]

I don't really have long term goals. The only thing very important to me is to do my meditaton and chi kung practices every day. So it's like mini-goals day after day. Never ending spiral...

 

Goals! What an interesting idea. A follower of Zen may say goals are a form of clinging, and really have nothing to do with "the moment". I'm not sure what the Taoist view of goals is or should be.

 

Bruce

[neimad]

goals are important, even in exploration.

 

if you have no idea of where you want to go, you are never gonna get there!

 

it doesn't mean they need to be static, they can change and fluctuate as you do.... they can be refined, added to, etc.

 

but, for myself, i have truly realised the sincere importance of them.

 

consider a goal as a focal point, a place where you can direct your attention, something you can use to be coherent with your intent.

without it you can easily become scattered and lost.

[SunDog]

QUOTE(SunDog @ Apr 29 2006, 03:27 AM) *

 

My goal, become less slothful.

 

QUOTE Freeform

Negative goals tend to bring about negative results... if the captain of the ship said "I dont want to get to africa" he would aimlessly sail around and not get to the right destination. Perhaps a better formulation would be "I want to be more proactive"... how would you know when you're proactive? perhaps you wouldn't have time to watch tv - and that's how you'd know...

 

all the best, f

 

 

QUOTE(Pietro @ Apr 29 2006, 08:41 PM) *

 

I dunno why, but I expect that if the captain were to say 'I dont want to get to Africa' I would expect him to reach it as soon as he get slightly distracted. Especially if the boat is governed directly by the mind.

 

QUOTE Freeform

I completely agree... It's like if you tell a child "don't jump in the puddle!" guess what's gonna happen? laugh.gif

 

 

Freeform and Pietro, been thinking about the negative wording of a goal. And first off, the word 'proactive' means nothing to me. It's too abstract for my brain. I spend time wallowing in the possible meanings for the word.

 

I think it's tedious to quibble about this positive and negative aspect of words. Columbus didn't say, "I don't want to find North America." And voila. If this were true, we'd all just be saying I don't want to [insert thing really wanted.] And POW there it would be. Doesn't happen does it?

 

In the end, the Tao is beyond words. The best we can do on the way is to use our intent, wordless intent when we're really resonating with the Tao.

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[neimad]

Columbus had a goal... His goal was to get to India westwardly... If his goal was however "I don't want to go east" he really wouldn't get far. If someone wanted to quit smoking telling themselves "I dont need to smoke, I dont want to smoke, I'm not craving a cigarette"... the attention is constantly on smoking!... How much more likely would they be to accomplish their desire if their goal was "I want to have strong, healthy lungs, and be able to calm myself in any situation."?

 

 

superb examples of positive affirmations and goal setting.

 

having a goal does not mean you have to give up creativity and spontenaity.

a goal doesn't mean that's all you do....

 

a goal is just a direction, that thing you are looking at over there..... and heading towards. it's something to get you moving.

now in that movement you can hop, skip, jump, whistle and stroll along merrily, or grumble and groan.... you can zig zag all over the path and admire all the other beautiful things along the way, or you could just bolt towards it as fast as possible.

once you get there you will likely decide now you want to go somewhere else.... or even upon the way you might see something even better you'd like to go to.

 

the point i'm trying to make in a garbled way is that having a goal doesn't mean you cannot be effortless, doesn't mean you cannot become like the flowing river..... as even the river has a goal, and that is to get to the ocean!

 

so as a goal is necessary as a space to have action, why not be clear, positive and concise about what it is you want and where it is you are going? you got a much better chance of achieving anything that way.

[SunDog]

QUOTE freeform

It's not about being 'proactive' or the specific words you use... it's the structure behind the words that's important. I know it may seem pedantic, but this is an enormously important point. Try this for me: dont think of a pink elephant! do it!... the mind works very simply: you have attention and you direct it - in the example with the pink elephant you have to direct your attention onto a mental image of a pink elephant so that you know what it is that you're not meant to be thinking of. You get whatever you put your attention on! If you point a child's attention to the possibility of jumping in the puddle, guess what the most likely result will be? it doesn't mean the child will definately jump in the puddle - but s/he is far more likely to. If you challenge a child to "walk around the puddle" then it's far more likely that they'll do that.

 

Columbus had a goal... His goal was to get to India westwardly... If his goal was however "I don't want to go east" he really wouldn't get far. If someone wanted to quit smoking telling themselves "I dont need to smoke, I dont want to smoke, I'm not craving a cigarette"... the attention is constantly on smoking!... How much more likely would they be to accomplish their desire if their goal was "I want to have strong, healthy lungs, and be able to calm myself in any situation."?

 

Freeform,

 

Yes, hello, and there are how many bajillions of people in the world and you're trying to say that one mold fits all?

 

I have a highly disciplined mind. I quit a heavy smoking habit by saying, I'm quitting smoking. I did it, done. No positive affirmations while doing so. Often fighting off cravings, and 'aware' of that very fact.

 

Not all children will jump in that mud puddle. I can 'not' think about the pink elephant.

 

I'm not saying your approach isn't a good one. Because I do like and appreciate it. What I'm saying is it's very helpful to always be flexible and adaptable in how you approach any goal.

 

For instance, some people work very well with positive rewards when making small successes in achieving a goal. Others work well with negative rewards (aka punishments). Wording of a goal is also highly subjective to each person. That's why when working with a person on the topic of goals you discuss all options and let the person word his or her own goal.

 

To then have someone come along and say, Hey, that's all wrong. You have to do it this way. Well, then the motivation just gets deflated and the goal is, poof, gone with the wind.

[SunDog]

Looking at it another way, here are the standard steps for goal-setting:

 

Goal-Setting Worksheet

 

When setting goals, play it SMART. Goals should be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and have a Timeframe for completion.

 

Goals and Action Steps Timeframe

 

Goal #1 _________________________________________________________ _________

 

Action Steps

 

1. ______________________________________________________________ _________

 

2. ______________________________________________________________ _________

 

3. ______________________________________________________________ _________

 

4. ______________________________________________________________ _________

 

 

So if my 'Goal' is to become less slothful, my Action Step is to do so by being more proactive.

[thaddeus]

Looking at it another way, here are the standard steps for goal-setting:

 

Goal-Setting Worksheet

 

When setting goals, play it SMART. Goals should be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and have a Timeframe for completion.

 

Goals and Action Steps Timeframe

 

Goal #1 _________________________________________________________ _________

 

Action Steps

 

1. ______________________________________________________________ _________

 

2. ______________________________________________________________ _________

 

3. ______________________________________________________________ _________

 

4. ______________________________________________________________ _________

So if my 'Goal' is to become less slothful, my Action Step is to do so by being more proactive.

Actually, based on the above, 'to become less slothful' is not really a good goal. It fails to meet any of the criteria of what makes up a goal.

So a goal like this is likely to produce frustration.

The goal could be reworked a bit to say, Make 3 sales calls before I take a coffee break at 10am. This one is specific, it's measurable, certainly attainable and realistic and has a time factor.

 

T

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[turbo]

Yes, hello, and there are how many bajillions of people in the world and you're trying to say that one mold fits all?

...

 

To then have someone come along and say, Hey, that's all wrong. You have to do it this way. Well, then the motivation just gets deflated and the goal is, poof, gone with the wind.

 

It seems intuitively obvious that if you set a goal like "I think I can" or "I am going to be in the top percentage group" or "I am going to meditate every day" that it would be better for you than "I not going to fuck up" or "I am no going to be in the bottom percentage group" or "I am not going oversleep and be running late and miss meditation".

 

If you have the confidence to say "I'm going to make it" then that will transalte into your action, however if you a repeating "Dont screw it up this time" then you are not trying to do your best, just trying to avoid your worst.

 

It is only when we do our best that we are successful, then we could have done no better. That reminds me...I have go fulfull some goals.

 

Cheers.

[sean]

In NLP there is this term though for people who spontaneously and naturally do close to the opposite of what they are told. I remember reading Bandler say once that he was this type, and so he needed to structure his directives inversely. Wish I remember what he called this.

 

Along similar lines, a few years ago I skimmed "The Positive Power of Negative Thinking" and strangely identified with it. I think the (simplistic) example they give in the book is there are two people that are about to give a speech and are they are both a bit nervous and trying to maintain a good mindset. One of them is pumping himself up with "I am going to do freakin' awesome. This is going to be my best speech ever. The crowd is going to love me. I'm going to remember all of my lines". The other dude is going "God. This is so fucking annoying. I freakin' hate speeches like this. This is going to suck and I'll probably forget my whole speech. They are going to shoot me in the face with a shotgun. This is the worst day of my life". The point was that most people would think the first guy's style was "right" and that it should be applied to the second guy to "help" him "stay positive". The value of the latter is not considered. But the reality is that the second dude is actually having a good time and preparing himself in his own way. He is making a funny, overdramatic cartoon about how unpleasant the situation is ... and this style actually helps ground him and prevent deflation from the reality of things going worse than he might hope. Further, one of the points in the book was that trying to apply the positive thinking style to the latter dude is actually going to freak him out and make him more nervous and more wired to fail. Likewise, applying the negative approach to the positive guy will not make him very happy.

 

Like I said, I can really identify with the negative thinker. Not all the time. But especially when I am nervous or already have negative or just overwhelming feelings about a situation, I've found it helps me much more to make a negative joke about things either in my head or even out loud ... you know, kind of like self-effacing Gary Shandling kind of attitude ... "oh this is great. cool! we are all going to die." .. and it makes me smirk on some deeper level and helps me through it.

 

Another way of looking at this, through the eyes of magickal theory, is that the two types are at different phases of attempting to accomplish their will. For example, in sigil magick there is the initial phase where you want to specifically imbue your desire with positive energy and you actively build up this focused, energetic trance. "I am going to do great. I am going to succeed". Then you focus all of this energy and "fire it" into your intention. For the positive-style speaker this might spontaneously occur when walking out onto stage. All of their positive "I am going to do great" just collapses into the live moment. The next, generally agreed upon step is to completely forget your desire, and even actively distract yourself from it. So again, in the positive-style speaker, this distraction may just happen naturally during the speech itself.

 

The negative-style speaker just has different timing and has to dig out some extra tools. He already has a deep, natural intention to deliver a successful speech. And now, pre-speech, he is just trying to get out of his own way, to prevent cramping up on wanting to do a good job so badly he fucks up. The conscious mind often has little power to penetrate into the subconscious in ordinary states of consciousness, so the negative self-talk might just be a way of keeping the conscious mind distracted from trying to take over, so the deeper intention can shine through naturally.

 

Or maybe he is just a cynical asshole, I dunno.

 

 

Sean

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[SunDog]

[freeform]

Edited May 2, 2006 by freeform

[SunDog]

[freeform]