sunshine Posted April 28, 2006 A happy Hi to all, There are far more experienced practitioners out there than me and I am interested what your thoughts are on this: Yogani with his spinal breathing says that we utilize a "VAST" amout of energy at the sacrum, awakening it there... how is this related to the Taoist thought of energy in the body? Is this "VAST" amount actually the Jing drawn up from the scrotum/semen? Is it cold or hot Jing? Or is it maybe directly accessing universal energy and because of that being referred to as vast? In Taoist meditation they most of the time advise on storing energy at the Dan Tian. From what I read so far there is no "storaging" of energy in the Yogani-"school"... so: is it important or not? Is the Dan Tian "battery" energy a different one from what you awaken at the sacrum or is concentrating on the awakening of the sacral energy just a different path to drawing energy from the Dan Tian area? What do you think about the several energy-storage practices in the Taoist schools... I never really was fully convinced that rotating the energy 36 in one and 24 times the other direction really as any true sealing effect... but I might be wrong... there sure are more questions but this is it so far from me... looking forward towards your answers thankx much in advance Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sean Posted April 28, 2006 I don't feel qualified to really answer your question sunshine but I can tell you my own experience. The energy that I feel at the sacrum is cool. Yogani has you inhale up from the perineum as the starting point, but I often feel a cool rush flowing into this starting spot from my balls, which I take to be Jing. It's interesting to start at the perineum though because I imagine that it creates a little vacuum that sucks in the energy from the balls which might not occur if you started/ended at the genitals themselves (not sure). The "vast" energy at the sacrum ... First, I think of the sacrum as a synapse with "jing receptors" (Yoda gave me this idea). In my very limited understanding, I would say this vastness at the sacrum is all of the electrical energy stored up from the sacrum's direct "neurosynaptic" connection to jing. As the spinal channel is opened more and more this vastness expands up and emcompasses the whole body, but perhaps a unique sense of vastness is still felt at the sacrum due to it's proximity to the sexual organs and jing production. Second, I think this vastness at the sacrum is Kundalini in Hindu terms. At first glance this doesn't make sense from a Taoist perspective. What the fuck is this extra phenomenon? A snake at the base of the spine? Huh? I prefer to think of Kundalini not as a different energy separate from prana, but as a description of the alchemical process of purifying and opening the spinal channel, so more and more prana can rise and circulate. When this is done gradually there is no hot snake burning up the spine, it's experienced more like in Taoist alchemy. This view makes it much easier to understand how Taoist and Hindu systems fit together IMO. From The Heart of Yoga by T. K. V. Desikachar "The concept of kundalini is confused by many imprecise definitions, and even a text such as the Hatha Yoga Pradipika contains contradictory descriptions of it. The definition that follows is derived from what in my opinion is the best, the clearest, and the most coherent text on this subject, the Yoga Yajnavalkya. There kundalini is defined unambiguously as an obstacle. What is to enter the sushumna at some stage or other through your yoga practice is, according to this text, not the kundalini itself, but simply prana. Many books say that it is the kundalini itself that rises up through the sushumna, but this does not make sense if we follow the Yoga Yajnavalkya, one of the oldest texts that deals with this aspect of yoga. One of its central concepts is that prana and the various forms it takes in the body are linked to the practice of yoga, and it says that if we are successful in our practice, the kundalini is burned up, making the way clear for prana. A snake killed while lying in a curled position unfolds and stretches out, the muscles no longer able to keep it coiled. It is said that when the fire in the body, agni, has killed the snake, the kundalini unrolls and the passage is open to the flow of prana. This does not happen overnight. Even when parts of the kundalini are destroyed, it remains capable of blocking sushumna for a long time. If you closely consider this image, it becomes clear that kundalini is another way of depicting what we call avidya. In the same way that avidya can become so powerful that it totally prevents us from seeing purusa, kundalini blocks the prana and prevents it from rising through the sushumna. The moment the kundalini is burned is the same moment that avidya ceases to exist. Then prana is able to enter the sushumna and slowly move upward. We can also understand hatha yoga as part of raja yoga, which is defined as the process in which prana, the friend of purusa, gradually rises upward. When it gets to the top, purusa unfolds and the king within us emerges. When the emphasis is primarily on the concept of kundalini, then we speak of the practice as kundalini yoga. Hatha yoga is so named when our practice focuses on removing the division between ha and tha." As for energy storage, I don't have any experience to make sense of this but I'm also curious about it. Intuitively I think a lot of what goes for "storing" energy in the LTT though is probably more like "accessing" energy through releasing energy-consuming tension. Sean Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
affenbrot Posted April 29, 2006 A happy Hi to all, There are far more experienced practitioners out there than me and I am interested what your thoughts are on this: Yogani with his spinal breathing says that we utilize a "VAST" amout of energy at the sacrum, awakening it there... how is this related to the Taoist thought of energy in the body? Is this "VAST" amount actually the Jing drawn up from the scrotum/semen? Is it cold or hot Jing? Or is it maybe directly accessing universal energy and because of that being referred to as vast? In Taoist meditation they most of the time advise on storing energy at the Dan Tian. From what I read so far there is no "storaging" of energy in the Yogani-"school"... so: is it important or not? Is the Dan Tian "battery" energy a different one from what you awaken at the sacrum or is concentrating on the awakening of the sacral energy just a different path to drawing energy from the Dan Tian area? What do you think about the several energy-storage practices in the Taoist schools... I never really was fully convinced that rotating the energy 36 in one and 24 times the other direction really as any true sealing effect... but I might be wrong... there sure are more questions but this is it so far from me... looking forward towards your answers thankx much in advance Harry From my experience when I did a kundalini yoga intensive once for six weeks, the energy we generated there was sooo amazing but 90% were gone after just one week. Even from simple qigong practices like standing and then gathering, the energy seems to stay and be available much much longer. Also i found that yoga people I met often have this glowing charismatic energy around them, qigong people often on the contrary - I believe because they store it inside their bones and dantian and don't "waste" it. in my view that's one of the fundamental differences between yoga and daoist qigong: the concept of storing. affenbrot p.s. in classic qigong one would first focus on charging and gradually building up the energy inside the dantian over some time, and only when it's really "full" one would start to move it, everything earlier would be "empty circulating" and "not the real qi". This doensn't answer where yogani draws his vast amount of energy from though... Do you feel the energy from spinal breathing stays? Does it build up? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine Posted April 29, 2006 >>The energy that I feel at the sacrum is cool. Yogani has you inhale up from the perineum as the starting point, but I often feel a cool rush flowing into this starting spot from my balls, which I take to be Jing. It's interesting to start at the perineum though because I imagine that it creates a little vacuum that sucks in the energy from the balls which might not occur if you started/ended at the genitals themselves (not sure).<< Interesting. I wonder if in a way spinal breathing is a way of uniting "heaven" & "earth" energy... yin from below and yang from above (although the thrid eye point seems to be actually a "yin point" : yin tang...)... >>In my very limited understanding, I would say this vastness at the sacrum is all of the electrical energy stored up from the sacrum's direct "neurosynaptic" connection to jing. As the spinal channel is opened more and more this vastness expands up and emcompasses the whole body, but perhaps a unique sense of vastness is still felt at the sacrum due to it's proximity to the sexual organs and jing production.<< Yeah o.k. But my impression was that Yogani was implying an endless amount of energy = vast amount of energy... I got the feeling that he views the sacrum as something that is the direct gate to the original energy of the universe whereby complete renewal happens... >>Second, I think this vastness at the sacrum is Kundalini in Hindu terms. At first glance this doesn't make sense from a Taoist perspective. What the fuck is this extra phenomenon? A snake at the base of the spine? Huh? I prefer to think of Kundalini not as a different energy separate from prana, but as a description of the alchemical process of purifying and opening the spinal channel, so more and more prana can rise and circulate. When this is done gradually there is no hot snake burning up the spine, it's experienced more like in Taoist alchemy. This view makes it much easier to understand how Taoist and Hindu systems fit together IMO.<< To be honest. To me Kundalini was nothing separate from the "usual energy" circulated in the channels... I know that some teachers differenatiate between wind energy and true energy... whatever... to me the question still is, in case kundalini is prana...: is this prana at the sacrum in any way associated to the Lowe Dan Tian... the link between Taoist & Hindu systems seems to miss here: what is the relationship between both. Why can Kundalinie sytems be without the Dan tian terminology... if everybody has the same energy system I assume it would need to be used similarly... a consequence of asking these questions is trying to find an answer if the two schools of practice effectively lead to a different result... >>As for energy storage, I don't have any experience to make sense of this but I'm also curious about it. Intuitively I think a lot of what goes for "storing" energy in the LTT though is probably more like "accessing" energy through releasing energy-consuming tension.<< Hmmmmm... if energy is consumed how canit be accessed by releasing? Thankx much for taking the time, Sean... looking at your new picture I wonder if kundalini has exploded at the top of your head... Also i found that yoga people I met often have this glowing charismatic energy around them, qigong people often on the contrary - I believe because they store it inside their bones and dantian and don't "waste" it. in my view that's one of the fundamental differences between yoga and daoist qigong: the concept of storing. Ahhhh... allow me to doubt it... >>>p.s. in classic qigong one would first focus on charging and gradually building up the energy inside the dantian over some time, and only when it's really "full" one would start to move it, everything earlier would be "empty circulating" and "not the real qi". This doensn't answer where yogani draws his vast amount of energy from though... Do you feel the energy from spinal breathing stays? Does it build up?<<< Oh yeah it does... actually the effects long after practice seem to be more noticable than during practice itself... during the day at certain (don'T really think "specific") times I can really feel it moving... but to be honest... I can not say for sure as spinal breathing is not my only practice... nevertheless: actually Yogani says that this practice more and more leads to extended periods of bliss... so the practice is building up "energy staying"... off to my seminar... until soon Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted April 29, 2006 (edited) . Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted April 30, 2006 (edited) The way I percieve it is that qigong enables you to absorb more energy from the universe. For example, this afternoon I had the feeling of my lower tan tien opening up and becoming like a giant mouth that could "feed" off the qi of the universe. The central channel and other meridians were like the "straw" that the deep tan tiens use to absorb qi from Mother Earth and Father Heaven, and basically all of nature. My feeling is it is in opening the tan tien(lower first, then middle and upper) more and more that we become an open portal to universal qi . Then, perhaps you can experience oneness with the life breath or what Ken Cohen calls "center everywhere, circumfrence nowhere". Edited April 30, 2006 by Cameron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine Posted May 4, 2006 PS nice to see you back here, Harry. Just a quick note from Spain where I have a daz off between two Karma Yoga seminars (one with Oleg Tcherne from Inbi... the other with Eduard...) >>I think with all the talk of cultivating and storing energy makes chi kung seem like an 'addative' system... but I believe any well balanced spiritual system has to be based mainly on a 'reductive' methodology... peeling away the layers of conditioning, blockages, armouring etc. this leads to the inherent limitless light to shine through.<< From what I have now learned in this course (and I am not sure if I grasped it truly)... we are not all born with the "we are all pure beings anyway"-state... some are born with maybe just an upper Dan Tian... some maybe with a crippled upper but nearly good lower Dan Tian etc... so the first part would be to restructure the crippled structure which we might have inherited at birth due to whatever-many conditions... I assume that just "peeling away" is not enough as one might find nothing below the layers... so it seems to be a process from two sides... building up & peeling away... I am still not sure were the "storing part" fits in... maybe we need to store to open up the structures from the inside in order to have a proper structure for letting in the "limitless" energy from the outside...!?! Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
