OBE

[goonis38]

A little eye candy th help our Newbe feel at home

 

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1d9qz_spi...-pt1_shortfilms

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1da00_spi...lity-pt2_people

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1da8v_spi...-pt3_shortfilms

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dae5_spi...ty-pt4_creation

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1daj2_spi...eality-pt5_blog

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1danq_spi...eality-pt6_news

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dapv_spi...lity-pt7_people

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dijt_spi...lity-pt8_school

 

 

Hi there,

Thank you, I love the one's I have watched, And I know they will be all great. I need to be close to a bed...Or I will fall asleep...lol

Talk to you later Mel

[SirYuri]

I had read from a few various Qigong masters that OBE's should not be attempted until a lot of other foundational work had been done first, or it can be dangerous.

 

 

Thought I drop by to share some thoughts. I agree with this. My spiritual mentors/healers from Indonesia and Philippines who were born with a gift (like healing, clairvoyance, astral etc..) told me this too. They both said (from different occasions) that its better to just visualize than do astral work. Base from their experience, they said that you get to attract more negative energy than positive energy. Now, for the untrained eye(3rd eye, clairvoyance) it seems like nothing happens. But with those who are able to see they said that doing astral work is dangerous there are a lot more of negative energies you attract than positive ones, however good the intentions maybe. Not only that, doing astral work depletes you of your vital energy w/c makes people who does astral work age faster than the usual. But still, its up to the person he/she want to do it we all have our freewill right?

 

Another is I had this friend who took the Silva Remote Viewing course and mixed it up with some Franz Bardon (Initiation into hermetics) technique of Astral Travel and he was able to go out from his body from time to time and influence certain events in his life. He also taught me how, I was successful too but didn't focus much on it because I was warned back then. Examples of what Ryan my friend that he was able to do are Ryan, could drop down to theta in 10secs. Influence his grades in school, business deals, and other stuffs. He even attempted to look at the lottery numbers But he told me he only get to see 50% of the numbers there because there are a lot of thoughts froms he needs to battle to maintain the focus in decoding the lottery numbers. He was successful in all of his attempts He is like from the movie Inception, and could get even your pin number if he wants to or let you do things what he want you to do. He also pointed out that people with weak or gullible personalities are very easy to remote influence.

 

Until he met a "guy" from his astral travel and instructed him to meet with him in a certain province here(3hour commute and 2hours walk 2 mountains and 1 river, he was that serious). When he woke up he just had this urge to go to that place and when he did this guy was there.

 

This person is a natural psychic and black magician he got his gift from black spirits when he was a young kid. Although, he has this gift he uses his back magic to help other people. He said to my friend that he didn't had a choice when he was a kid when he was given these black magic powers. He said that he was young and didn't know that I could contact and see negative entities and spirits and thus making friends with them and gave me these abilities.

 

Anyways, according to my friend Ryan what happened was this "Albularyo" (that's how we call them another name for shaman, witch doctor etc.) lives out of other people's negative energies. He is already 94 years old but still looks like somebody who is in his late fifties. That's why he could suck out diseases of other people and other negative stuffs out of their body it sustains his body/powers. He said that its easier to develop negative energy/powers than positive. But positive energy once developed is far way too powerful than negative one only its harder to develop. (Which reminds me of the saying that its easier to do bad things than good things because everybody is doing it.)

 

What happened was my friend has been sick and he doesn't know what is happening to him until, this Albularyo got attracted to his negative energy and contacted him to help him out to eradicate the negative energy out of his body since this Albularyo lives out of negative energies out of people. After he sucked out the all the nagative energies out of my friend he said that the Albularyo told him to stop doing astral travel because, he only gets to attract negative energies and there's nothing of good goes out of it. He told me he was not able to do astral travel for awhile and when he does he sees the Albularyo's face reminding him to stop.

 

God that was long. So far that's what I recall about stuffs regarding why Astral Travel is a no-no. Of course, again I might me wrong. Just sharing some thoughts and ideas.

 

 

 

Regards,

SY

Edited September 8, 2010 by SirYuri

[goonis38]

Wow... Thank You SY,

I will really take all you said into account. I sure don't want to get any older any faster. I'm 39 pushing 40. That is enough to make me think twice right there, not to be vain." I know what a woman". And I understand about the negatives, that are there. And know that to be true...

 

But I also heard of some wonderful story's also. You where talking about helping people. My friend said he did this in hid OBE. And everything you said is true. He said he could visit a person where ever they are. That you can have sex, on the astral plain. But that it is better than what normal sex is here... More love, and energy... Could be you are losing energy? I wonder...

 

I guess there is good and bad, just like everything else. But this is the first time, I heard about the getting older faster. Goodness!! But then you go back to you don't get something for nothing. I think if you are right. I will pass. But I have to say my body was trying to go into this vibration, and sleep paralysis all by it's self way before I started trying on my own. So why would my body try to do something on it's own? That is a good question, if anyone has an idea... Please if you don't mind.

 

I will not try to do something, that is harmful to myself, or someone else, ever. I am all about goodness and love... But why would your own body go there by it's self, with no help? Or was there help? I'm unaware of... Anyways, that was very kind of you, to take the time and write all that all. THank you again...

Your Friend Melanie

[~jK~]

Wow... Thank You SY,

I will really take all you said into account. I sure don't want to get any older any faster. Your Friend Melanie

The initial exercises for OBE are also healing exercises that rejuvinate the worn parts of the body as well as the mind. Other than that, taking antioxidents such as Vitamin E over the lifespan works from the pharmacalogical point. I'm sure you know the rest.

 

One other not so commonly known anti-aging trick is to balance the chakras.

Watch the folowing video to see if it does anything for you. Try it while meditating to experience the full effect.

 

Having sex during OBE is new to me but I do use OBE to meet girlfriends and then meet them later in physical. They very rarely remember the OBE but follow the directions more perfectly than as if hypnotized. Come to think about it the dream/sleep state, at the subconscious level is, open to suggestion.

Edited September 8, 2010 by ~jK~

[Sunya]

What's the point? just more stories for the ego to get involved with. There is a reason that serious spiritual traditions don't even bother with this stuff.

[goonis38]

The initial exercises for OBE are also healing exercises that rejuvinate the worn parts of the body as well as the mind. Other than that, taking antioxidents such as Vitamin E over the lifespan works from the pharmacalogical point. I'm sure you know the rest.

 

One other not so commonly known anti-aging trick is to balance the chakras.

Watch the folowing video to see if it does anything for you. Try it while meditating to experience the full effect.

 

Having sex during OBE is new to me but I do use OBE to meet girlfriends and then meet them later in physical. They very rarely remember the OBE but follow the directions more perfectly than as if hypnotized. Come to think about it the dream/sleep state, at the subconscious level is, open to suggestion.

 

Lol "follow the directions more perfectly than as if hypnotized". Wow makes me wonder how many times this my have happened to me. I know there are a lot of people who don't even think this is possible. I guess if I wouldn't of seen it myself, I wouldn't believe it either.

 

JK have you seen the city? Hope you don't mind me asking... What about the higher beings. I know I have spoken to one. But never have seen one. If you don't want to talk about it here, send me a message please... I would love to know what you have seen... It would mean a lot to me... Thanks for all Melanie

[Thunder_Gooch]

What's the point? just more stories for the ego to get involved with. There is a reason that serious spiritual traditions don't even bother with this stuff.

 

There is a reason that most adherent's of "serious spiritual traditions" never accomplish accomplish their stated goals. Their practices don't work.

 

 

I have a friend who has been doing vipassana meditation now for 10 years every day. He goes to the retreats and such every chance he gets. I asked him last time I saw him if he was any closer to his goal of enlightenment and liberation than the day he started. He replied with an explanation about waiting for spontaneous instant enlightenment after many more years of practicing he thought it would come to him. I asked him if that had happened to anyone he had ever heard about in his school, to which he responded only with silence. I asked if actually anyone in his school that he had ever heard of had achieved enlightenment through their training, again silence. I didn't expect an answer as I meant those questions rhetorically, if Buddhist or mainstream taoist practices were producing any real enlightened being's it would be all over the news.

 

I love my friend but he will die before he get's any closer to his goals, because modern "serious spiritual traditions" don't work. None of the mainstream schools are producing enlightened liberated students, only peaced out hippies.

 

 

You can chant "om padme hum" till your teeth fall out, spin around in circles as a whirling dervish, trip your balls off with all kinds of shamanic entheogens, pray at a church, mosque or synagog, cast wiccan spells you buy off ebay or find at your local discount wicca-mart, preform guided meditations, try yogic flying, etc and you still aren't going to achieve anything other than an empty wallet as a result of your efforts.

 

 

I like systems which actually produce results, Robert Bruce's system is one such system. I've had several OBE's with his method. I believe I actually made contact with another person during an obe as we both have shared memories of the event.

 

I have noticed that during an OBE your ability to move chi into, through, and outside of your body is enhanced several hundred fold. In fact the only time other people have been able to even feel energy from me was when I was in a deep trance state having a near OBE like experience.

 

One of my personal goals for OBE training is to become advanced enough to seek out high level teachers in the astral, I know it sounds crazy but there sure is a shortage here on earth.

Edited September 8, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Mokona]

There is a reason that most adherent's of "serious spiritual traditions" never accomplish accomplish their stated goals. Their practices don't work.

 

 

I have a friend who has been doing vipassana meditation now for 10 years every day. He goes to the retreats and such every chance he gets. I asked him last time I saw him if he was any closer to his goal of enlightenment and liberation than the day he started. He replied with an explanation about waiting for spontaneous instant enlightenment after many more years of practicing he thought it would come to him. I asked him if that had happened to anyone he had ever heard about in his school, to which he responded only with silence. I asked if actually anyone in his school that he had ever heard of had achieved enlightenment through their training, again silence. I didn't expect an answer as I meant those questions rhetorically, if Buddhist or mainstream taoist practices were producing any real enlightened being's it would be all over the news.

 

I love my friend but he will die before he get's any closer to his goals, because modern "serious spiritual traditions" don't work. None of the mainstream schools are producing enlightened liberated students, only peaced out hippies.

 

 

You can chant "om padme hum" till your teeth fall out, spin around in circles as a whirling dervish, trip your balls off with all kinds of shamanic entheogens, pray at a church, mosque or synagog, cast wiccan spells you buy off ebay or find at your local discount wicca-mart, preform guided meditations, try yogic flying, etc and you still aren't going to achieve anything other than an empty wallet as a result of your efforts.

 

 

I like systems which actually produce results, Robert Bruce's system is one such system. I've had several OBE's with his method. I believe I actually made contact with another person during an obe as we both have shared memories of the event.

 

I have noticed that during an OBE your ability to move chi into, through, and outside of your body is enhanced several hundred fold. In fact the only time other people have been able to even feel energy from me was when I was in a deep trance state having a near OBE like experience.

 

One of my personal goals for OBE training is to become advanced enough to seek out high level teachers in the astral, I know it sounds crazy but there sure is a shortage here on earth.

 

I've RB's book and started the method. My first experience is quick fatigue and stuck feelings and the tendency for the feelings to almost seem to "float" off the skin and out of the body and brush the surfaces. How has the actual energy movements been for you? I suppose I should stick to fingers and toes for now.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I've RB's book and started the method. My first experience is quick fatigue and stuck feelings and the tendency for the feelings to almost seem to "float" off the skin and out of the body and brush the surfaces. How has the actual energy movements been for you? I suppose I should stick to fingers and toes for now.

 

I can't really feel any energy movements unless I am first in a deep trance state. When I am in deep trance I can feel energy so strongly there is no doubt in my mind it is a real phenomenon that can interact with the environment around you.

 

I think Robert's concept of deep trance is synonymous with Chunyi Lin's "the emptiness" In spring forest qigong he teaches this as the first and most important teaching to go into the emptiness.

 

Countless different Qigong and meditation exercises exist. All teach the basic idea of

using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly

diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all

from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we

are one with the universe.

 

Our bodies naturally direct us to the emptiness. When we get sick, for example, the

first place we go is not to the hospital, but to bed. When we sleep, we feel relaxed and

peaceful. We bring our mind and body into the emptiness. Everybody does this automatic

meditation without noticing it during sleep and periods of deep relaxation. Most of our daily

energy blockages are opened and resolved in this way The deeper you go into the emptiness,

the faster your body will heal. By practicing Qigong we go into the emptiness where we

effortlessly balance the Yin and Yang, the female and male energy. As the balance of energy

comes back, the body heals.

-Chunyi Lin Spring Forest Qigong Edited September 8, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[~jK~]

 

One of my personal goals for OBE training is to become advanced enough to seek out high level teachers in the astral, I know it sounds crazy but there sure is a shortage here on earth.

 

MPG,

OBE is a cute and sometimes usefull toy.

But, after all is said and done, it is only a toy.

Edited September 9, 2010 by ~jK~

[Thunder_Gooch]

MPG,

OBE is a cute and sometimes usefull toy.

But, after all is said and done, it is only a toy.

 

I disagree that it is a toy. I am no longer an atheist because of experiences I've had with OBE and similar phenomenon, and that is saying a lot because I was a pretty hard core atheist.

 

 

Robert Bruce (astral dynamics) has a really amazing system of energetic development. It is really easy to comprehend, understand and put into use. I find many of Robert's insights coincide with other masters like Chunyi Lin of spring forest qigong.

 

The deep trance state Robert and Chunyi discuss in their systems I find absolutely fascinating, as when I achieve a deep trance state reality becomes absolutely amazing to me. I can feel energy flow so perfectly and on occasion affect things outside of my body, or induce an obe.

 

I believe there is a lot more to this system than most others on the market.

 

 

 

 

The past masters have left many, -many- paths to follow to enlightenment right here under your nose.

If you waste your time to go find them do you think they will tell you anything different from what they have left for all humankind ?

 

I am trying to be rational about selecting practices and teachers. Which practices are getting results, and which teachers have actually accomplished something of note. John Chang, Wang Liping, Ram Bahadur Bomjon (assuming they are legit) and Wim Hof (tummo inner fire meditation master) all have accomplished some amazing things. I don't like taking advice from people whom I don't consider accomplished. I am very mentally hygienic in that respect. There is too much BS on the market to consider each practice as equal to all others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In China, they relate things of high importance to various immortals that have already proven themselves throughout the millennia. If you read enough of the literature, you will find many references to The Jade Emperor.

 

I don't like philosophical texts like you recommend. I want straight forward, training manuals with no esoteric jargon gobbledygook. I like things simple and clean cut and explained in a manner so that a 5 year old could comprehend it. I want a practice that has been demonstrated to get results, and a no bs training manual for it, and a teacher that can walk the walk and demonstrate his or her accomplishment in said practice.

 

 

I'd be interested in what Mr. Olson has accomplished with his life. If he isn't on the level of Chang or Liping I really don't care about anything he's got to offer. We have too many authors and not enough people actually accomplishing anything worth writing a book about.

 

Just my $0.02

[idquest]

The deep trance state Robert and Chunyi discuss in their systems I find absolutely fascinating, as when I achieve a deep trance state reality becomes absolutely amazing to me. I can feel energy flow so perfectly and on occasion affect things outside of my body, or induce an obe.

I always thought that after one comes out of trans they don't actually remember anything. So they have some experience while in trans and that experience could have some effect on their body/mind, but no memory about the actual experience exists.

 

I understand Chunyi Li means something different: an attempt to diminish activity of the 'monkey mind'.

 

So is Bruce's system about trans or about 'sitting in oblivion'?

[Thunder_Gooch]

I always thought that after one comes out of trans they don't actually remember anything. So they have some experience while in trans and that experience could have some effect on their body/mind, but no memory about the actual experience exists.

 

I understand Chunyi Li means something different: an attempt to diminish activity of the 'monkey mind'.

 

So is Bruce's system about trans or about 'sitting in oblivion'?

 

I think they are both describing the same thing. Chunyi Lin describes it as going into the emptiness:

 

"using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly

diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all

from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we

are one with the universe."

 

The state that Robert describes as a deep trance state seems to be the same state chunyi lin refers to as the emptiness.

 

I have no memory issues in that deep state of relaxation/trance, only if I go too deep do I lose consciousness.

 

Robert's system is about a lot of things. It's about learning how to relax and get into a state of deep trance, then how to move energy within your body by feeling it not visualizing it.

 

There is a lot more to it than that but that is gist of it.

 

Chunyi lin mentions that the emptiness is a place where sensory connections to the physical body fade which coincides with a deep trance state.

 

Also Chunyi lin states:

"When doing Qigong exercise, we use sensation of the body to feel the moving Qi."

which is essentially what Robert's system is about: feeling and not visualizing qi.

Edited September 9, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[~jK~]

I disagree that it is a toy. I am no longer an atheist because of experiences I've had with OBE and similar phenomenon, and that is saying a lot because I was a pretty hard core atheist.

Just my $0.02

 

I guess in your case it is different strokes for different folks.

As for me:

I chose to do the work that stood the test of time in China.

Why?

To me it was and is written in plain English and Chinese.

A method that works on multiple levels.

My recomendation is to do what works for you.

I can only recommend what worked for me.

I'll be there knowing & growing further.

I agree that:Athiesm is not the way

Why debate what is not there?

[LBDaoist]

There is a reason that most adherent's of "serious spiritual traditions" never accomplish accomplish their stated goals. Their practices don't work.

 

 

I have a friend who has been doing vipassana meditation now for 10 years every day. He goes to the retreats and such every chance he gets. I asked him last time I saw him if he was any closer to his goal of enlightenment and liberation than the day he started. He replied with an explanation about waiting for spontaneous instant enlightenment after many more years of practicing he thought it would come to him. I asked him if that had happened to anyone he had ever heard about in his school, to which he responded only with silence. I asked if actually anyone in his school that he had ever heard of had achieved enlightenment through their training, again silence. I didn't expect an answer as I meant those questions rhetorically, if Buddhist or mainstream taoist practices were producing any real enlightened being's it would be all over the news.

 

Your post puts me in mind of what I have read of Thomas Cleary's translations. I found his translations of Zen Buddhism Volumes 1 and 2 to be very insightful with regards to enlightenment. There are quite a few sections of the books that deal with the ideas of false paths and wrong teachings. There are many passages that speak to seeking enlightenment, and the wrong ways of doing it. One of my favorite metaphors from the book is "Riding a donkey in search of a donkey."

 

What are your thoughts on enlightenment? At what point does a person become enlightened? What about the numerous paths and practices that you mentioned fail to guide a person to that point?

[LBDaoist]

I am trying to be rational about selecting practices and teachers. Which practices are getting results, and which teachers have actually accomplished something of note. John Chang, Wang Liping, Ram Bahadur Bomjon (assuming they are legit) and Wim Hof (tummo inner fire meditation master) all have accomplished some amazing things. I don't like taking advice from people whom I don't consider accomplished. I am very mentally hygienic in that respect. There is too much BS on the market to consider each practice as equal to all others.

 

I want to start by saying that I respect where I think you are coming from. In your experience you have perceived many false teachers who seem to waste people's time with ineffective practice. Therefore you want to see the end result before you start any particular practice.

 

When I read what you wrote, I was put in mind of breaking boards. When I started training kung fu, I never considered that I could break a board. Yet when the time came, I was able to do so with ease. The ability came as a result of the training. It was not the purpose of the training.

 

When you mention various accomplishments by various teachers, have you considered that their accomplishments are simply milestones along a path to a much higher place? Have you purified your intent? Are you truly interested in the path, or are you simply following and trying to reproduce the byproducts of the path that you have seen performed by others?

 

One of my favorite Daoist sayings is, "If I only meet three people today, one of them can be my teacher." Have you perhaps considered that lessons are being offered to you each and every day; lessons are being offered to you by those you might consider yourself least inclined to learn from?

[Thunder_Gooch]

I guess in your case it is different strokes for different folks.

As for me:

I chose to do the work that stood the test of time in China.

Why?

To me it was and is written in plain English and Chinese.

A method that works on multiple levels.

My recomendation is to do what works for you.

I can only recommend what worked for me.

I'll be there knowing & growing further.

 

Well I am interested in any information you might have to give, if it's written in laymen's terms, and has some good evidence to back it up. More than discussions on taoist philosophy, I want to see instruction on training, a clearly defined goal for the practice, and some evidence that the training accomplishes it's stated goal.

 

I just don't see much of that anymore. Most books and teachers on the market are just full incomprehensible esoteric gibberish. I don't think the authors even know what they are writing about most of the time. I don't think most of the authors and teachers have accomplished enough to really be writing or teaching.

 

I just honestly question the point of all of it. What is the end goal? How many people practiced and reached the end goal? Is it effective?

Edited September 9, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[LBDaoist]

I have only had one experience that I would consider an OBE. It happened while I was perfectly conscious. I had only recently begun training. It was at a point in my life where I was following Dr. Ming's recommendations to meditate while focused on a piece of burning incense. During that time I had also begun to focus on the huiyun cavity and the motions of it while breathing and meditating.

 

I was meditating and had been meditating with my eyes closed for probably fifteen to thirty minutes. I could really feel the deep breathing. On the inhales I was drawing in and on the exhales I was projecting a bubble around myself. Then with one breath, I felt myself yanked skyward to the point where I was probably a good couple thousand feet above the house and I could look down on the city. With the next breath I was literally being pulled rapidly away from the planet and into space. It was scary. I had the thought that I had better open my eyes RIGHT NOW before I was unable to get back. I did so and popped back into my body.

 

Based on that experience, and having read what others have said about negative energies and being cautious about OBEs, I would echo that advice. There seem to be forces out there that want our spirit.

[LBDaoist]

Well I am interested in any information you might have to give, if it's written in laymen's terms, and has some good evidence to back it up. More than discussions on taoist philosophy, I want to see instruction on training, a clearly defined goal for the practice, and some evidence that the training accomplishes it's stated goal.

 

I just don't see much of that anymore. Most books and teachers on the market are just full incomprehensible esoteric gibberish. I don't think the authors even know what they are writing about most of the time. I don't think most of the authors and teachers have accomplished enough to really be writing or teaching.

 

I just honestly question the point of all of it. What is the end goal? How many people practiced and reached the end goal? Is it effective?

 

I get it. You haven't found a teacher yet. The way can only be truly passed on from teacher to student, master to disciple. Books and words can point at it. The only terms I can describe it in are like energy transfer. The mind might be able to catch glimpses of it in text, but it very well might not ever solidify. It requires physical practice, and the presence of a true teacher.

 

I started practicing because I wanted to clear my mind. I wanted clear thoughts. I wanted to be calm and peaceful. For me, the end goal is clarity. Beyond that, it is compassion, and helping others reach that same place, that same state of mind. Clarity and connectedness with themselves, and from there the natural realization that we are all connected with something larger than ourselves.

 

There are many paths. Simplicity seems to be a very powerful one. Ever eternal simplification. The casting off of that which we do not need. Clearing the mind of obsessions and ruminations. Clearing the mind of worry and concern. The mind tells you exactly what the goal is at every moment of every day. There is something on the mind of every person who read these words. These words might obscure it, or perhaps they point to it. That which becomes obscured, or that which is pointed to are not the mind. They are simply impressions upon it, tricks played by it.

[~jK~]

I want to start by saying that I respect where I think you are coming from. In your experience you have perceived many false teachers who seem to waste people's time with ineffective practice. Therefore you want to see the end result before you start any particular practice.

 

When I read what you wrote, I was put in mind of breaking boards. When I started training kung fu, I never considered that I could break a board. Yet when the time came, I was able to do so with ease. The ability came as a result of the training. It was not the purpose of the training.

 

When you mention various accomplishments by various teachers, have you considered that their accomplishments are simply milestones along a path to a much higher place? Have you purified your intent? Are you truly interested in the path, or are you simply following and trying to reproduce the byproducts of the path that you have seen performed by others?

 

One of my favorite Daoist sayings is, "If I only meet three people today, one of them can be my teacher." Have you perhaps considered that lessons are being offered to you each and every day; lessons are being offered to you by those you might consider yourself least inclined to learn from?

Edited September 9, 2010 by ~jK~

[Thunder_Gooch]

Your post puts me in mind of what I have read of Thomas Cleary's translations. I found his translations of Zen Buddhism Volumes 1 and 2 to be very insightful with regards to enlightenment. There are quite a few sections of the books that deal with the ideas of false paths and wrong teachings. There are many passages that speak to seeking enlightenment, and the wrong ways of doing it. One of my favorite metaphors from the book is "Riding a donkey in search of a donkey."

 

What are your thoughts on enlightenment? At what point does a person become enlightened? What about the numerous paths and practices that you mentioned fail to guide a person to that point?

 

To be honest when it gets down to the nitty gritty, I don't really know anything for certain, that includes if this world I find myself in is real, or if I even exist to begin with.

 

I have absolutely no idea what enlightenment is, it seems to mean many things to many people.

 

I seek to never be reborn, and maybe to have a painless death.

 

I like the nondualistic models of enlightenment, but I am seeking more of an energetic model as those are the only ones I've heard of breaking the rebirth cycle.

Edited September 9, 2010 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Well actually I've found several teachers and several systems I like very much and that seem to give real results. Right now I am working too much to devote much of my life to training. I am saving to purchase an acre of land, a camper, a roof over the camper, a washing machine, newer used car, and well and septic. That is my immediate goal. After that milestone I plan on devoting my life to training, and working part time to maintain a minimum standard of living.

 

I am hoping when I have gone as far as I can on my own that the universe will direct me to a new teacher or system to continue my training.

 

I plan on doing the best I can with what I have, that's sort of my personal mantra. Maybe when I master the teachings I already have, better ones will be provided. That's my hope at least.

 

 

 

I get it. You haven't found a teacher yet. The way can only be truly passed on from teacher to student, master to disciple. Books and words can point at it. The only terms I can describe it in are like energy transfer. The mind might be able to catch glimpses of it in text, but it very well might not ever solidify. It requires physical practice, and the presence of a true teacher.

 

I started practicing because I wanted to clear my mind. I wanted clear thoughts. I wanted to be calm and peaceful. For me, the end goal is clarity. Beyond that, it is compassion, and helping others reach that same place, that same state of mind. Clarity and connectedness with themselves, and from there the natural realization that we are all connected with something larger than ourselves.

 

There are many paths. Simplicity seems to be a very powerful one. Ever eternal simplification. The casting off of that which we do not need. Clearing the mind of obsessions and ruminations. Clearing the mind of worry and concern. The mind tells you exactly what the goal is at every moment of every day. There is something on the mind of every person who read these words. These words might obscure it, or perhaps they point to it. That which becomes obscured, or that which is pointed to are not the mind. They are simply impressions upon it, tricks played by it.

[Thunder_Gooch]

He seems to be at a point where he is tired of wasting time but seems to have not read enough for the language of the ancients to begin sinking in.

 

Well just looking at what is available on the market, people in general don't seem to accomplishing much. A few systems get results in a few specific area's. A few teachers have a good reputation for producing results.

 

The mainstream practices that are commonly used don't really seem to be doing a whole lot to be honest. People sink their entire lives into these things like vipassana, zen, transcendental meditation, etc. all for naught.

 

I just want to see someone who claims to adhere to some practice clearly state it's purpose, and show how effective it has been in practice.

 

I think Jed McKenna says it better than I can:

"How long has your guru been teaching?"

 

"Well, uh, over thirty years."

 

"And how many of his students have achieved enlightenment?"

 

"Well, uh..."

 

"That you know of personally?"

 

"Well, uh, I never..."

 

"That you've heard of?"

 

"It's not"

 

"That there were rumors of?"

 

"I don't think..."

 

"What is it they're doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment they're promoting - what is it?"

 

"Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically."

 

"And in thirty years they've never held someone up and said, 'Look at this guy! He's enlightened and we got him there!' In thirty years, they don't have one? Don't you think they should have, like, an entire army of enlightened guys to show off by now?"

 

"Well, it's not..."

 

"After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers, they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking, don't you think? I'm not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I'm just asking as a consumer, or a consumer's advocate. Don't you think it's reasonable to ask to know a teacher's success rate? The proof is in the pudding, right? Didn't you ask them about the fruit of their teachings when you started with them?"

 

"Well, that's not..."

 

"Don't you think it's reasonable to ask? They're in the enlightenment business, aren't they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have something else going?"

 

"Nooo, but they..."

 

"If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual organizations delivered as promised, don't you suppose that the first statistic listed under each organization would be success rating? Like, here are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization five years ago and here's where they are today. For instance, thirty-one have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent - that's a number you can compare. But this organization of yours would have big fat goose egg, wouldn't they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of thousands - millions, probably. Am I wrong?

 

- Jed McKenna - 'Spiritual Enlightenment:The Damnedest Thing'

[~jK~]

Well just looking at what is available on the market, people in general don't seem to accomplishing much. A few systems get results in a few specific area's. A few teachers have a good reputation for producing results.

 

The mainstream practices that are commonly used don't really seem to be doing a whole lot to be honest. People sink their entire lives into these things like vipassana, zen, transcendental meditation, etc. all for naught.

 

I just want to see someone who claims to adhere to some practice clearly state it's purpose, and show how effective it has been in practice.

 

I think Jed McKenna says it better than I can:

 

A few more hints: Reincarnation and Evolution are the same word.

[Thunder_Gooch]

When you mention various accomplishments by various teachers, have you considered that their accomplishments are simply milestones along a path to a much higher place? Have you purified your intent? Are you truly interested in the path, or are you simply following and trying to reproduce the byproducts of the path that you have seen performed by others?

 

The people with these accomplishments are the only ones I would even trust enough to accept their opinions. I don't really care about developing powers, only of breaking free of rebirth. As you say these accomplishments are milestones. I view them as a means to an end, but not the point of the practice itself.

 

 

 

One of my favorite Daoist sayings is, "If I only meet three people today, one of them can be my teacher." Have you perhaps considered that lessons are being offered to you each and every day; lessons are being offered to you by those you might consider yourself least inclined to learn from?

 

That may be possible, I don't know. I am only doing what I think most logical and rational. If you want to be a master carpenter, first learn from a master carpenter or so my logic goes.